GM's think we're second banana

nykballa2k4 · Post #41 » by **nykballa2k4** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:29 pm

Good for them. Everyone can gear up for the Nets and we can slide.

munchies · Post #42 » by **munchies** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:32 pm

knicks need to put together couple more post season runs to shed the embarrassment that was this organization for past decade

NBA Fan 1234 · Post #43 » by **NBA Fan 1234** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:36 pm

munchies wrote:knicks need to put together couple more post season runs to shed the embarrassment that was this organization for past decade

the last decade means nothing. the only thing that should matter is the current team...and if they cant even look at that, at least just look at last year.

to be honest, i dont care what anyone says.

cgmw · Post #44 » by **cgmw** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:28 am

Knickstape1214 wrote:the last decade means nothing. the only thing that should matter is the current team...and if they cant even look at that, at least just look at last year.

All due respect, that's an incredibly naive point of view. Nobody and nothing exists in a vacuum. All we know about Carmelo Anthony, the Knicks, the NBA, the United States of America, the Earth, the Universe, etc. etc. etc. is based on what we've observed in the past. To limit that past to "only last year" isn't just foolish, it's pointless.

To illustrate, let's posit the hypothetical that Carmelo carried Denver to 4 championships early in his career. Everything else remains the same. Would pundits still give us only a 15% chance? Would you still say the only thing that matters is last year?

Until there's some drastic and lasting change, cautiously pessimistic predictions remain the wisest predictions when it comes to the Knicks.

The part these prognosticators might be missing is how good of a regular-season coach Mike Woodson is. He and Carmelo make a very dangerous regular-season pair; and personally, I'd put more weight into their successful track record than I would the non-existent track record of Jason Kidd's Brooklyn Celtics.

NBA Fan 1234 · Post #45 » by **NBA Fan 1234** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:33 am

cgmw wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:the last decade means nothing. the only thing that should matter is the current team...and if they cant even look at that, at least just look at last year.

All due respect, that's an incredibly naive point of view. Nobody and nothing exists in a vacuum. All we know about Carmelo Anthony, the Knicks, the NBA, the United States of America, the Earth, the Universe, etc. etc. etc. is based on what we've observed in the past. To limit that past to "only last year" isn't just foolish, it's pointless.

To illustrate, let's posit the hypothetical that Carmelo carried Denver to 4 championships early in his career. Everything else remains the same. Would pundits still give us only a 15% chance? Would you still say the only thing that matters is last year?

The fact remains, until there's some drastic and lasting change, negative predictions remain wise predictions when it comes to the Knicks.

how is it naive? this upcoming season, or opinions on how we will do, should not be determined by how we were 10 years ago...or even 5 years ago. its a completely different team...even last year's team is very different from the team we are currently fielding.

the pistons won a championship in 2004...are they looked as the same team? no. the mavericks won 3 years ago...are they looked at as the same team? no.

as for your question about carmelo -- yes, i would be saying the asme thing.

as an athlete, it is how you are programmed -- you are only as good as your last game...what you did 10 games ago, means nothing.

cgmw · Post #46 » by **cgmw** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:50 am

Everything we know about the current team stretches well beyond last year. Hypothetically, if Carmelo Anthony didn't win a national title at Syracuse, if he wasn't the fourth pick in the draft, if he got cut from the Nuggets, if he played his way up from the NBDL over the past ten years; but then led the league in scoring last season and carried the Knicks to a second round exit... then I'm sorry but predictions would change.

Same thing for Woodson, Felton, Tyson, Amar'e, JR, Bargnani, Artest, all of them. We have a knowledge base about the present team that extends back a long time. I don't think anybody can deny that.

The more controversial point around here is that Jim Dolan has run a second-class organization for a long time; which therefore means we as fans should expect more second-class results. Which is exactly where I've been as a fan since basically Scott Layden.

Scalabrine · Post #47 » by **Scalabrine** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:04 pm

knicks85 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Those guys are old, but Terry and Kiriklenko aren't chopped liver (And I HATE the Nyets)

But they do have some age and injury concerns. They could be first if they get 100% health, though I don't think they'd run away with it or anything

Terry is trash...ak not so much...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

Terry is not the player he used to be but as a 9th man hes still serviceable. Last year he has his fewest shots per game since his rookie season but shot pretty much the same as he has always. His role has just diminished. Lets look at their depth chart:

Lopez/Blatche/KG
KG/Evans/Kirlienko/Teletovic/Plumlee*
Pierce/Kirlienko/Anderson/Johnson
Johnson/Terry/Stackhouse
Williams/Livingston/Terry/Taylor*

Bold is there 10 man rotation. Asterisk is there suits.

I dont think winning the atlantic should be there goal. With their age, and key players with injury, I think keeping players well rested until the playoffs should be their goal. The Knicks are the defending Atlantic Champs, so they deserve more respect then they are getting... its not like they have gotten any worse themselves.

I think we will be posting back to back ESPN predictions where noone had us winning the Atlantic by the end of the season. GO MotherF'in Knicks!!!!

NYK_89 · Post #48 » by **NYK_89** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:30 pm

MaseInYourFace wrote:I do find it a little funny how much of a sure thing the Nets are perceived as. That team has the potential but they also have a ton of question marks from coaching, health, fit, and personnel. The Knicks FWIW are more or less the same team.

Well thats the issue in rating the nets.

They could be healthy and are probably a top 3 championship contender or they could be the 5-6th seed with half their roster having injury concerns.

But any of you that are mad about the nets being picked over us need to take a step back and re-enter reality.

We are the clear #5 team in the East.

That does not mean that we cant be angry about BS like melo #15 on player rater being projected 37 wins etc. and bull projections that pretend that did not improve over the offseason. But understand that when you are infuriated that the Nets are picked to win over you, you are basically being equally absurd as the previous 37 win projections etc..

The nets have a very good team that fits together very wel.

Its ok to acknowledge that other teams are good guys, i will never understand the position that is prevalent on this board that every team other then the knicks has to be overrated and total ****, also why you guys feel the need to manufacture a rivalry with the Nets i mean WHO ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT WHAT THE NETS DO. Would you seriously rather see a team like Indiana progress in the playoffs, or Chicago???

NYK_89 · Post #49 » by **NYK_89** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:33 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
knicks85 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Those guys are old, but Terry and Kiriklenko aren't chopped liver (And I HATE the Nyets)

But they do have some age and injury concerns. They could be first if they get 100% health, though I don't think they'd run away with it or anything

Terry is trash...ak not so much...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

Terry is not the player he used to be but as a 9th man hes still serviceable. Last year he has his fewest shots per game since his rookie season but shot pretty much the same as he has always. His role has just diminished. Lets look at their depth chart:

Lopez/Blatche/KG
KG/Evans/Kirlienko/Teletovic/Plumlee*
Pierce/Kirlienko/Anderson/Johnson
Johnson/Terry/Stackhouse
Williams/Livingston/Terry/Taylor*

Bold is there 10 man rotation. Asterisk is there suits.

I dont think winning the atlantic should be there goal. With their age, and key players with injury, I think keeping players well rested until the playoffs should be their goal. The Knicks are the defending Atlantic Champs, so they deserve more respect then they are getting... its not like they have gotten any worse themselves.

I think we will be posting back to back ESPN predictions where noone had us winning the Atlantic by the end of the season. GO MotherF'in Knicks!!!!

Its still quite possible to go easy and win a bunch of games when you have the talent they do ala spurs and celtics of the last 3 years.

I do agree that the race should be fairly close though.

KnicksScholar24 · Post #50 » by **KnicksScholar24** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Rasho Brezec wrote:Can we stop now with this whole "media hates us, we get no respect" thing we've been doing for the last couple of seasons? Clearly we're not seen as a threat to anyone.

This is also telling:

Which player forces opposing coaches to make the most adjustments?

1. LeBron James, Miami -- 66.7%

2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City -- 13.3%

3. Chris Paul, L.A. Clippers -- 10.0%

Also receiving votes: Stephen Curry, Golden State; Tony Parker, San Antonio; Derrick Rose, Chicago

Last year: LeBron James -- 50.0%

Why are they asking GMs about coaching strategy? I'm sure if these were 30 NBA coaches, Anthony would have made the list.

But I can see why GMs don't fear Carmelo; it is because of Woodson's predictable isolation-all-day offensive system, and Anthony's (earned) reputation as an unwilling passer, thus these factors make the GMs feel that it is unnecessary to adjust to him (mid-game/mid-series).

Although, I don't know why Durant gets second place. Maybe it's because Scott Brooks doesn't call as man iso-plays, or because Durant has made the NBA Finals while Anthony has rarely even gotten out of the first round. Durant is also more efficient than Anthony; when a high volume shooter is efficient a lot of defensive adjustment will need to be made by the opposing team.

Idee Mixed · Post #51 » by **Idee Mixed** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:36 pm

You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

NOW

JUST SAYING!!!!!!

KnicksScholar24 · Post #52 » by **KnicksScholar24** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:38 pm

All of the categories in which New York was mentioned:

New York -- 24.1%

Carmelo Anthony, New York

Andrea Bargnani to New York

Tyson Chandler, New York

(No Larry Sanders, Milwaukee!?)

Darrell Walker, New York

Carmelo Anthony, New York

Metta World Peace, New York

Carmelo Anthony, New York

5 (of the 8) of the categories that the New York Knicks were involved in were only as received votes/honorable mentions type votes.

A few were disrespectful, like Bargnani making the most surprising off-season acquisition list (which had a negative connotation) or the Knicks only having a 25% chance at winning the Atlantic division. Chandler is, at best, the 6th best defensive big in the league (which I don't totally disagree w/ considering all of the layups I consistently see him allow and mediocre job I've see him do on the defensive glass).

I also think Carmelo should have been considered as the best player, in terms of getting his own shot off, over Durant (& Kobe), because Anthony doesn't have the luxury of playing with an offensive players like Westbrook & Harden (or even Dwight Howard), which means he still gets his points even when ALL of the opposing team's attention is on him (and his coach is continuously calling predictable iso-plays). JR Smith was NY's second leading scorer, and he doesn't have nearly the same offensive impact as Westbrook or Harden (old teammate) (or Howard... or Shaq back in the day). I also don't think Durant and Kobe should have such a big advantage over Anthony when it comes to taking the last shot. 39% and 32% vs. 7.1%? Anthony likely converts on his clutch shots at a higher percentage than Durant & Kobe.

Almost none of the votes showed NY respect.

The final lesson: When Carmelo and the Knicks get out of the second round (and make an NBA Finals) then they'll start getting more respect from the GMs and media.

KnicksScholar24 · Post #53 » by **KnicksScholar24** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:40 pm

Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

Did the Nets WIN the Finals that year? If not, then they weren't "The Best Team In The World."

omerome · Post #54 » by **omerome** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:41 pm

Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

NOW

JUST SAYING!!!!!!

One thing is for sure...GMs are wrong all the time.

Just saying...but how can the best team in the world lose in the NBA Finals?

Post #55 » by **j4remi** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:49 pm

Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

NOW

JUST SAYING!!!!!!

Sports Illustrated cover curse...Dwight needs to pray.

porkchop8920 · Post #56 » by **porkchop8920** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:01 pm

Scalabrine wrote:
knicks85 wrote:
thebuzzardman wrote:Those guys are old, but Terry and Kiriklenko aren't chopped liver (And I HATE the Nyets)

But they do have some age and injury concerns. They could be first if they get 100% health, though I don't think they'd run away with it or anything

Terry is trash...ak not so much...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

Terry is not the player he used to be but as a 9th man hes still serviceable. Last year he has his fewest shots per game since his rookie season but shot pretty much the same as he has always. His role has just diminished. Lets look at their depth chart:

Lopez/Blatche/KG
KG/Evans/Kirlienko/Teletovic/Plumlee*
Pierce/Kirlienko/Anderson/Johnson
Johnson/Terry/Stackhouse
Williams/Livingston/Terry/Taylor*

Bold is there 10 man rotation. Asterisk is there suits.

I dont think winning the atlantic should be there goal. With their age, and key players with injury, I think keeping players well rested until the playoffs should be their goal. The Knicks are the defending Atlantic Champs, so they deserve more respect then they are getting... its not like they have gotten any worse themselves.

I think we will be posting back to back ESPN predictions where noone had us winning the Atlantic by the end of the season. GO MotherF'in Knicks!!!!

Stackhouse isn't on the team this year

Idee Mixed · Post #57 » by **Idee Mixed** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:17 pm

KnicksScholar24 wrote:
Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

Did the Nets WIN the Finals that year? If not, then they weren't "The Best Team In The World."

You are right.

The funny thing is Knicks win Atlantic after how many years, get bounced out of 2nd Round and you guys think Knicks are better then what everyone else thinks but Knicks are being disrespected by media and world.

IMAN5 · Post #58 » by **IMAN5** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:37 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:fine by me

GMs dont play the games

exactly. amen to that.

thebuzzardman · Post #59 » by **thebuzzardman** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:03 pm

Idee Mixed wrote:
KnicksScholar24 wrote:
Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

Did the Nets WIN the Finals that year? If not, then they weren't "The Best Team In The World."

You are right.

The funny thing is Knicks win Atlantic after how many years, get bounced out of 2nd Round and you guys think Knicks are better then what everyone else thinks but Knicks are being disrespected by media and world.

No, a**pipe who should go back to his own forum. Everyone knows the Knicks basically sucked for years here. But they do know that they finally decided to ride out 2 years of the right kind of suck to build a decent team, and 1,2 years after that, got to 54 wins. No one thinks that OMG, Knicks ARE THE BEST. Just that fans here are a little annoyed that a team that is on the face of it the same as last year, or maybe a bit better, that won 54 games, is now pegged for like 6-8th place. Really? Now one is saying "hands down win Atlantic, but you'd think topping Atlantic would at least get them 4th place consideration.

Net's have hardly been a powerhouse either lately, so I'd say all the Net fan "OMG" is being based somewhat on unknown - ie, these guys are/were great players, but being older, injuries COULD be an issue. Funny, all I heard about Knicks with older players were "these old guys going to be an issue" from the press, but for the Nets, not so much.

My Theory: Dolan is such a massive douchebag that a lot of media like to stick it to the team. Also comparing a magazine cover of a Nets team with prime Kidd\Kittles\Jefferson\Martin to Plump DWill\Lopez\Johnson\older Garnett\Pierce is apples and oranges. And this is to both fan bases. Don't you get the Knick\Net media stance thing? THIS IS WRITERS/REPORTERS READING FROM A SCRIPT. SCRIPT IS TALK UP THE NETS TO ANNOY NYC KNICK FANS TO BUILD RIVALRY TO BOOST LEAGUE. There. Get it? And those media outlets get views/ clicks/
etc.

That magazine with Kidd/Kittles etc - that was from a time when their was a vestige of journalism left in sports media. That world hasn't existed in over 5 years.

Scalabrine · Post #60 » by **Scalabrine** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:21 pm

Idee Mixed wrote:
KnicksScholar24 wrote:
Idee Mixed wrote:You guys are right.

What do GMs Know?

One thing is for sure.

Remember THIS

Nets went to the Finals that year.

Did the Nets WIN the Finals that year? If not, then they weren't "The Best Team In The World."

You are right.

The funny thing is Knicks win Atlantic after how many years, get bounced out of 2nd Round and you guys think Knicks are better then what everyone else thinks but Knicks are being disrespected by media and world.

And how many members of the media predicted them to win the atlantic last year?