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Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3

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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1041 » by closg00 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:24 pm

hands11 wrote:LOL. There are things to pin on EG but Gil's rehab isn't one of them. Gil blow his rehab. Gil brought guns in the locker room. Gil shoulder the blame for Gil.


Actually a large part of the blame does fall on Mgmt. Are Rose and Noel left on their own to figure-out their rehabilitation, or is it done according to a well thought-out plan that is monitored by the GM? Did Ernie just throw his hands in the air and say "Hey, there is nothing I can do about managing this situation"

If Grunfeld is not the person to be held to account, then why is he the one answering questions pertaining to Gilberts rehab?
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2009/9/25 ... ert-arenas

Anyone recall this?
Still, Arenas to some degree blames the club for his failed comebacks over the past two seasons, saying he was given too much power over his own situation.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... z2iSaOyNeE

In other words, he wasn't being managed.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1042 » by TGW » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:39 pm

I think that's just a copout closgoo. I'm sure Gilbert would have said exactly the opposite if the FO was micro-managing his injury. Gilbert was good at deflecting blame on others when the finger was being pointed at him (no pun intended).
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1043 » by closg00 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:55 pm

TGW wrote:I think that's just a copout closgoo. I'm sure Gilbert would have said exactly the opposite if the FO was micro-managing his injury. Gilbert was good at deflecting blame on others when the finger was being pointed at him (no pun intended).


Don't get me wrong, Gilbert is not blameless, but he needed an adult to reign him in. Gilbert was also not responsible for managing his minutes after returning from rehab.

Everyone remembers watching in-horror last-year as RGIII tried to continue playing on his injured knee. Eventually management stepped-in and yanked him from the game. Management has a responsibility to protect their multimillion dollar investment. We see how a hands-off approach worked with Gilbert, other teams have taken note.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1044 » by payitforward » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:08 pm

montestewart wrote:I haven't taken a poll hands, but I think you're in the minority thinking EG is blameless there. People here were routinely asserting that Arenas was coming back too fast, and I doubt many have changed their positions on that. Shouldn't the GM be making decisions about that? Isn't he in charge of that?

Not sure what the guns have do with that, other than to further illustrate Arenas' questionable judgment. Why would EG defer to that?

Although I can't stand Ernie Grunfeld, I have to agree w/ Hands here. Ernie's not involved w/ something like this on a hands-on basis. The coaching, medical and training people have responsibility. Now, if they're incompetent -- that's Ernie's responsibility of course. But they have to listen to Gil, and Ernie has to listen to them.

Doesn't excuse EG from all the other dumb things he's done and still does.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1045 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:16 pm

closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:I think that's just a copout closgoo. I'm sure Gilbert would have said exactly the opposite if the FO was micro-managing his injury. Gilbert was good at deflecting blame on others when the finger was being pointed at him (no pun intended).


Don't get me wrong, Gilbert is not blameless, but he needed an adult to reign him in. Gilbert was also not responsible for managing his minutes after returning from rehab.

Everyone remembers watching in-horror last-year as RGIII tried to continue playing on his injured knee. Eventually management stepped-in and yanked him from the game. Management has a responsibility to protect their multimillion dollar investment. We see how a hands-off approach worked with Gilbert, other teams have taken note.


I agree with you that management was part to blame, closg.

Gilbert rushed back from injury to be in the Wizard's lineup at the beginning of the 2007-2008 season. At the time I posted he needs to take his time. I posted that players who had successfully returned from micro fracture surgery took their time. Jason Kidd was one I mentioned in warning that Gilbert should do likewise, and take his time. So was Zach Randolph. Here's a link to how Randolph rehabbed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/05/magaz ... .html?_r=0

The thing I objected to was the first 5 games of the season. Gilbert averaged over 40 minutes a game. I haven't used a search engine--I remember. I complained that if Eddie Jordan wasn't wise enough to use a "pitch count" approach, or in more straightforward terms; if he wasn't smart enough to limit Gilbert's minutes and ease him in to the rotation, then Ernie Grunfeld should overrule and step in. I kept posting that Gilbert's future was being compromised. He played (poorly) those 5 games, and came back worse as the Wizards were closing in on the playoffs. He never was the same.

I cannot say if Gilbert had already ruined his game by rehabbing incorrectly the first time out. His new contract was probably a motivator for him to come back. I think management was stupid to give him that contract. Said so at the time. Said he opted out knowing he was hurt. Not to say I was right --(I'll let DANNYLANDOVER criticize me for an emotional rant. FWIW his criticism reminds me of those telling me back then Gilbert was fine.) -- but to me it made a lot more sense to wait and see Arenas healthy before awarding him a huge deal.

In hindsight, the smartest thing would have been to tell him they wouldn't negotiate a deal but for him to come back healthy, and not before, so Arenas could be the player he already had shown to be.

To me, Wizards management didn't take a proactive stance in helping make sure their own players' health came first. EG was a part of of the problem and so was Eddie Jordan IMO. Foremost, the medical staff and Arenas were the culprits, but I think management could have made things better.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1046 » by MikeTheKid » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:45 am

Dont flame me for this but Fab Melo just got waived from the Mavs, he can't be any worse than Ves and we need frontcourt help desperately. Could we give him a run?
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1047 » by rockymac52 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:49 am

Well, we opted for a month rental of Jason Collins over Fab Melo a year ago, and we didn't bring Collins back even, so I think you know the answer to your question...

And on top of that, he is one of the few players who might actually be worse than Vesely, and I have no idea what you see in Melo other than a 7 footer.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1048 » by MikeTheKid » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:53 am

rockymac52 wrote:Well, we opted for a month rental of Jason Collins over Fab Melo a year ago, and we didn't bring Collins back even, so I think you know the answer to your question...

And on top of that, he is one of the few players who might actually be worse than Vesely, and I have no idea what you see in Melo other than a 7 footer.


Honestly I just saw a 7 footer and 6 fouls cause we need frontcourt depth bad cause Ves sucks and I have the feeling Okafor is going to miss 3/4 of the year if not the entire season
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1049 » by rockymac52 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:12 am

MikeTheKid wrote:
rockymac52 wrote:Well, we opted for a month rental of Jason Collins over Fab Melo a year ago, and we didn't bring Collins back even, so I think you know the answer to your question...

And on top of that, he is one of the few players who might actually be worse than Vesely, and I have no idea what you see in Melo other than a 7 footer.


Honestly I just saw a 7 footer and 6 fouls cause we need frontcourt depth bad cause Ves sucks and I have the feeling Okafor is going to miss 3/4 of the year if not the entire season


I agree Okafor will probably miss most or all of this season. I agree that we need front court depth badly. I agree that Vesely sucks.

BUT, you asked for a 7 footer and 6 fouls, and I can't think of anyone who fits that description better than Jan Vesely. :D

We don't need depth for the sake of depth, we need quality depth. Unfortunately no free agents at the moment are really quality depth down low, other than perhaps Chris Wilcox, but even then, we're talking about an old backup 5th big man off the bench.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1050 » by dangermouse » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:43 am

What about Balkman?

Oh wait, i forgot we are stacked with lanky 6'8"-7'0" tweener forwards who can't shoot.

Thanks again, EG! :D
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1051 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:19 pm

closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:Gorgui Dieng could have helped right now. Just one of the bigs we could have had with a late pick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTfWQnjiWk


Nice!!! 21st pick, why can't we ever score one of these?


A 21st pick in the Wizards GM's hands is far from a sure thing ...

Here's who the Wizards scored with a #18:

Image

And this player with a #6:

Image

Both in the same draft in which there were the following players:

Klay Thompson #11, Kawhi Leonard #15, Nikola Vucevic #16, Iman Shumpert #17, Tobias Harris #19, Kenneth Faried #22, and Reggie Jackson #24. Marshon Brooks #25, Norris Cole #28, Jimmy Butler #30. (The rest after selecting Shelvin Mack #34) Jordan Williams #36, Chandler Parsons #38, and Isaiah Thomas #60.

With all those future stars available, EG and company chose: Vesely, Singleton, Mack :(

I think the Wizards did kinda bad in the 2011 draft. :lol:
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1052 » by MikeTheKid » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:33 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:Gorgui Dieng could have helped right now. Just one of the bigs we could have had with a late pick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTfWQnjiWk


Nice!!! 21st pick, why can't we ever score one of these?


A 21st pick in the Wizards GM's hands is far from a sure thing ...

Here's who the Wizards scored with a #18:

Image

And this player with a #6:

Image

Both in the same draft in which there were the following players:

Klay Thompson #11, Kawhi Leonard #15, Nikola Vucevic #16, Iman Shumpert #17, Tobias Harris #19, Kenneth Faried #22, and Reggie Jackson #24. Marshon Brooks #25, Norris Cole #28, Jimmy Butler #30. (The rest after selecting Shelvin Mack #34) Jordan Williams #36, Chandler Parsons #38, and Isaiah Thomas #60.

With all those future stars available, EG and company chose: Vesely, Singleton, Mack :(

I think the Wizards did kinda bad in the 2011 draft. :lol:


Oh God CCJ not the 2011 draft again, I cringe and cry everytime we look at what we could've had in the 2011 draft, it hurts so bad looking at that!!!
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1053 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:55 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
closg00 wrote:
TGW wrote:Gorgui Dieng could have helped right now. Just one of the bigs we could have had with a late pick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phTfWQnjiWk


Nice!!! 21st pick, why can't we ever score one of these?


A 21st pick in the Wizards GM's hands is far from a sure thing ...

Here's who the Wizards scored with a #18:

Image

And this player with a #6:

Image

Both in the same draft in which there were the following players:

Klay Thompson #11, Kawhi Leonard #15, Nikola Vucevic #16, Iman Shumpert #17, Tobias Harris #19, Kenneth Faried #22, and Reggie Jackson #24. Marshon Brooks #25, Norris Cole #28, Jimmy Butler #30. (The rest after selecting Shelvin Mack #34) Jordan Williams #36, Chandler Parsons #38, and Isaiah Thomas #60.

With all those future stars available, EG and company chose: Vesely, Singleton, Mack :(

I think the Wizards did kinda bad in the 2011 draft. :lol:

You left out Leuer, Harrellson and Lavoy Allen -- all young bigs! -- among those taken after Shelvin Mack. :)

Worst draft by any GM I've ever seen. You can say that, e.g. Kwame was a bigger bust, but pretty much everyone had it between him and Chandler for #1 that year. You think a lot of GMs cried when we made it impossible for them to nab Vesely?

The lottery provides recompense to idiots like Ernie, however: had we taken Leonard-Faried-Parsons, we would never have had a shot at Beal the following year.
Of course we might still have gotten Drummond!!!!
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1054 » by GhostsOfGil » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:25 am

Steven Adams has had a few solid games. Didn't think he was going to contribute this soon. Wasn't that WizD's guy?
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1055 » by dangermouse » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:56 am

Shelvin Mack

hes probably better than Maynor.
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NatP4 wrote:but why would the pacers want Mahinmi's contract


Well, in fairness, we took Mike Pence off their hands. Taking back Mahinmi is the least they can do.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1056 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:16 am

dangermouse wrote:Shelvin Mack

hes probably better than Maynor.


Agreed.

dm, at this moment I'm thinking: AJ Price > Shelvin Mack > Eric Maynor.

Maynor is a better pure passer and true floor general than either Price or Mack. However, he's smallish, really bad defensively, and has been cold shooting the ball in preseason. Maynor's probably going to play better but he's perhaps/probably not going to be worth the deal the Wizards rushed to sign him to. Price was better hitting big shots and defensively. Mack is tougher and also can score a bit more ways than Maynor, IMO.

Here's to hoping that Maynor ups his game ASAP. He's got to be better than his preseason. Right? :(
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1057 » by tontoz » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:11 am

Collison is averaging 20/5 in preseason shooting 52%, 46% from 3. He is making $1.9 million this season. :banghead:
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1058 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:41 am

EFG, tontoz.
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1059 » by closg00 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:49 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:EFG, tontoz.


Funny, I realized that we haven't tagged Ernie with the EFG moniker right? Henceforth Ernie Grunfeld will be referred to as EFG :thumbsup:
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Re: Discussing Other Teams' Moves Part 3 

Post#1060 » by Nivek » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:10 pm

GhostsOfGil wrote:Steven Adams has had a few solid games. Didn't think he was going to contribute this soon. Wasn't that WizD's guy?


He was. In YODA, I had Adams rated basically the same as McLemore, Porter and Bennett. Good prospect.
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