My new project: top-5 1-year player peaks ever

[PCProductions]

**Still working on the discussion, but I figured I'd get something posted. Will update periodically over the next day or two.

...

*100% open to all criticism and commentary, but I'll say that I'm going to avoid making any rebuttals until after I've finished posting all of my thoughts above.

Any chance on an update for this one?

[SideshowBob]

**Still working on the discussion, but I figured I'd get something posted. Will update periodically over the next day or two.

...

*100% open to all criticism and commentary, but I'll say that I'm going to avoid making any rebuttals until after I've finished posting all of my thoughts above.

Any chance on an update for this one?

Done.

[Gregoire]

**Still working on the discussion, but I figured I'd get something posted. Will update periodically over the next day or two.

...

*100% open to all criticism and commentary, but I'll say that I'm going to avoid making any rebuttals until after I've finished posting all of my thoughts above.

Any chance on an update for this one?

Done.

Great work! While IMO you overrate James a little, your list sounds good with explanation. How about next five guys resumes?

[O_6]

Here’s my Top 5, with my full Top 10 included. I weighed a lot of things to pick out the season I thought was a player’s best. I looked at regular season individual performance, regular season team success, playoff performance, and playoff success. I picked the season where I thought the player had the best mix of those 4 aspects as their individual peak season.

There were a couple of tough ones. With Russell I chose ’65 over ’62 because I believe he was a better defender during ’65 and he was dominating a better league. With Kareem I chose ’71 over ’77, the toughest choice I had to make. Kareem might’ve been a more mature player in ’77, but he was a phenomenon in ’71 and dominated the league from start to finish. The ring and stronger regular season of ’71 trumps his ’77 playoff run and more refined game. You could pick any Jordan season from 88-92 but 91 sticks out as his ultimate form as a player.

Code: Select all

Player ------- PER ---- WS ----- TmSRS --- Wins --- pPER --- Title --- MVP
Jordan 91 ---- 31.6 --- 20.3 ---- 8.57 ---- 61 ---- 32.0 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Wilt 67 ------ 26.5 --- 21.9 ---- 8.50 ---- 68 ---- 25.3 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Shaq 00 ------ 30.6 --- 18.6 ---- 8.41 ---- 67 ---- 30.5 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Russell 65 --- 19.5 --- 16.9 ---- 7.46 ---- 62 ---- 20.9 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
LeBron 13 ---- 31.6 --- 19.3 ---- 7.03 ---- 66 ---- 28.1 ---- Yes ---- Yes
   
Kareem 71 ---- 29.0 --- 22.3 ---- 11.91 --- 66 ---- 25.3 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Magic 87 ----- 27.0 --- 15.9 ---- 8.32 ---- 65 ---- 26.2 ---- Yes ---- Yes
Hakeem 94 ---- 25.3 --- 14.3 ---- 4.19 ---- 58 ---- 27.7 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Duncan 03 ---- 26.9 --- 16.5 ---- 5.65 ---- 60 ---- 28.4 ---- Yes ---- Yes
Bird 86 ------ 25.6 --- 15.8 ---- 9.06 ---- 67 ---- 23.9 ---- Yes ---- Yes
*pPER stands for playoffs PER

Jordan: He ranks first because of his complete offensive game paired with his perimeter defense. He’s the best offensive player ever in my mind, his scoring ability was just a level above anyone else’s in history. His physical tools paired with his complete offensive skillset made him an unstoppable offensive force during the ’91 season. I value bigs over wings due to defense, but Jordan played elite perimeter defense which is why I still rank him #1 ahead of 3 bigs. I agree with the general population, MJ was the GOAT.

Wilt: I believe his career tends to get overrated because of his scoring numbers in the early 60s. Those seasons were absolutely incredible at an individual level but they didn’t maximize his team’s potential. ’67 was the season where Wilt took a big dip in FGA and scoring to focus on being more of a facilitator and defender. His far more complete and efficient game allowed his team to become legendary. He’s still behind ’91 Jordan in my book because of Jordan’s impossibly complete offensive game, but I rank him 2nd ahead of ’65 Russell and ’00 Shaq because he was a better 2 way player than those guys.

Shaq: He was such an unstoppable force in 2000. I ranked him 3rd because he paired up his dominant offensive game with a very strong defensive season. His health and defensive laziness hurt him at other points in his career, but not this season. He was a man possessed and he owned the league during this season. I rank 2000 Shaq a tiny bit ahead of 1967 Wilt offensively despite Wilt’s more complete game, because Shag has such an edge in volume scoring while also being highly efficient and a good passer. But ’67 Wilt gets the slight edge overall because his agility and defensive ability made him more complete on that end than ’00 Shaq.

Russell: He’s obviously a very unique and difficult player to rank among the rest of the NBA elite. So much of his value comes from his defensive ability and intangible leadership. 1965 was probably the best individual defensive season in NBA history, the peak of Russell’s historic Celtics defense. His offensive game is underrated these days because his efficiency looks better relative to his league than it does overall. But in ’65, Russell had his best offensive playoff stretch. In terms of value added to a team in a season, I think ’65 Russell probably ranks first overall. But his game was a bit more era dependent and one-way than the 3 guys above. For those reasons I ranked him 4th.

LeBron: This 5th spot was the toughest. I had a really hard time comparing 2013 LeBron with 1971 Kareem. I gave the edge to LeBron because his unique skillset made him a more complete player than Kareem. And 2013 is also tougher than the 1971 NBA, which played a role here as well. But 2013 LeBron was incredible, about as complete a player as there has ever been. His volume scoring came on absurd efficiency and versatility, he was one of the best passers in the game, he was a monster defender, and he owned the league from start to finish. His playoff performance was very good but not legendary, which is the only reason this peak isn’t in the mix for Top 3.

The rest of the guys aren’t far behind. I have Kareem a clear 6th. He wasn’t as physically dominant as the 5 guys who rank above him. He was definitely a very strong athlete, but just not on the same level as the guys above him on my Peak list. His defensive potential also wasn’t legendary, but “merely” great. But his scoring ability is absurd. He was such a complete scorer and good passer. Magic at 7th is tough because like Russell, he’s hard to gauge because of his uniqueness. But he was such a one of a kind offensive juggernaut who simply owned that season. Hakeem at 8th was tough, he had an unreal playoffs but he was just never the regular season player the guys above him were. He had a relatively weak cast but a lot of that was on him. He matured into a mythical beast from ’93-’95, but before that he was a wild animal. In ’94, his 2 way game peaked in an epic way. His volume scoring potential trumps any other big on this list and he was a dominant defender that season. But he’s behind the other centers because he lacked their regular season consistency.

Duncan at 9th is tough too, I’ve always had a tough time comparing him against Hakeem and Shaq. But in terms of peak ability, I don’t think Duncan matched them because he didn’t have the same volume scoring ability. But Duncan was a more complete player than the other 2 and didn’t need to score 40 points to dominate a big game. Bird was a very complete offensive player, up there with anyone. He could dominate a game doing a variety of things. He was a smart defender too but limited on that end against certain forwards. He was an amazing passer as well who made the right pass and didn’t chase assists. There were other guys who I thought about, but I rank Bird 10th.

I hate to be the guy who quotes his own stuff but I put a lot of time into that and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on my rankings?

[Gregoire]

Here’s my Top 5, with my full Top 10 included. I weighed a lot of things to pick out the season I thought was a player’s best. I looked at regular season individual performance, regular season team success, playoff performance, and playoff success. I picked the season where I thought the player had the best mix of those 4 aspects as their individual peak season.

There were a couple of tough ones. With Russell I chose ’65 over ’62 because I believe he was a better defender during ’65 and he was dominating a better league. With Kareem I chose ’71 over ’77, the toughest choice I had to make. Kareem might’ve been a more mature player in ’77, but he was a phenomenon in ’71 and dominated the league from start to finish. The ring and stronger regular season of ’71 trumps his ’77 playoff run and more refined game. You could pick any Jordan season from 88-92 but 91 sticks out as his ultimate form as a player.

Code: Select all

Player ------- PER ---- WS ----- TmSRS --- Wins --- pPER --- Title --- MVP
Jordan 91 ---- 31.6 --- 20.3 ---- 8.57 ---- 61 ---- 32.0 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Wilt 67 ------ 26.5 --- 21.9 ---- 8.50 ---- 68 ---- 25.3 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Shaq 00 ------ 30.6 --- 18.6 ---- 8.41 ---- 67 ---- 30.5 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Russell 65 --- 19.5 --- 16.9 ---- 7.46 ---- 62 ---- 20.9 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
LeBron 13 ---- 31.6 --- 19.3 ---- 7.03 ---- 66 ---- 28.1 ---- Yes ---- Yes
   
Kareem 71 ---- 29.0 --- 22.3 ---- 11.91 --- 66 ---- 25.3 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Magic 87 ----- 27.0 --- 15.9 ---- 8.32 ---- 65 ---- 26.2 ---- Yes ---- Yes
Hakeem 94 ---- 25.3 --- 14.3 ---- 4.19 ---- 58 ---- 27.7 ---- Yes ---- Yes   
Duncan 03 ---- 26.9 --- 16.5 ---- 5.65 ---- 60 ---- 28.4 ---- Yes ---- Yes
Bird 86 ------ 25.6 --- 15.8 ---- 9.06 ---- 67 ---- 23.9 ---- Yes ---- Yes
*pPER stands for playoffs PER

Jordan: He ranks first because of his complete offensive game paired with his perimeter defense. He’s the best offensive player ever in my mind, his scoring ability was just a level above anyone else’s in history. His physical tools paired with his complete offensive skillset made him an unstoppable offensive force during the ’91 season. I value bigs over wings due to defense, but Jordan played elite perimeter defense which is why I still rank him #1 ahead of 3 bigs. I agree with the general population, MJ was the GOAT.

Wilt: I believe his career tends to get overrated because of his scoring numbers in the early 60s. Those seasons were absolutely incredible at an individual level but they didn’t maximize his team’s potential. ’67 was the season where Wilt took a big dip in FGA and scoring to focus on being more of a facilitator and defender. His far more complete and efficient game allowed his team to become legendary. He’s still behind ’91 Jordan in my book because of Jordan’s impossibly complete offensive game, but I rank him 2nd ahead of ’65 Russell and ’00 Shaq because he was a better 2 way player than those guys.

Shaq: He was such an unstoppable force in 2000. I ranked him 3rd because he paired up his dominant offensive game with a very strong defensive season. His health and defensive laziness hurt him at other points in his career, but not this season. He was a man possessed and he owned the league during this season. I rank 2000 Shaq a tiny bit ahead of 1967 Wilt offensively despite Wilt’s more complete game, because Shag has such an edge in volume scoring while also being highly efficient and a good passer. But ’67 Wilt gets the slight edge overall because his agility and defensive ability made him more complete on that end than ’00 Shaq.

Russell: He’s obviously a very unique and difficult player to rank among the rest of the NBA elite. So much of his value comes from his defensive ability and intangible leadership. 1965 was probably the best individual defensive season in NBA history, the peak of Russell’s historic Celtics defense. His offensive game is underrated these days because his efficiency looks better relative to his league than it does overall. But in ’65, Russell had his best offensive playoff stretch. In terms of value added to a team in a season, I think ’65 Russell probably ranks first overall. But his game was a bit more era dependent and one-way than the 3 guys above. For those reasons I ranked him 4th.

LeBron: This 5th spot was the toughest. I had a really hard time comparing 2013 LeBron with 1971 Kareem. I gave the edge to LeBron because his unique skillset made him a more complete player than Kareem. And 2013 is also tougher than the 1971 NBA, which played a role here as well. But 2013 LeBron was incredible, about as complete a player as there has ever been. His volume scoring came on absurd efficiency and versatility, he was one of the best passers in the game, he was a monster defender, and he owned the league from start to finish. His playoff performance was very good but not legendary, which is the only reason this peak isn’t in the mix for Top 3.

The rest of the guys aren’t far behind. I have Kareem a clear 6th. He wasn’t as physically dominant as the 5 guys who rank above him. He was definitely a very strong athlete, but just not on the same level as the guys above him on my Peak list. His defensive potential also wasn’t legendary, but “merely” great. But his scoring ability is absurd. He was such a complete scorer and good passer. Magic at 7th is tough because like Russell, he’s hard to gauge because of his uniqueness. But he was such a one of a kind offensive juggernaut who simply owned that season. Hakeem at 8th was tough, he had an unreal playoffs but he was just never the regular season player the guys above him were. He had a relatively weak cast but a lot of that was on him. He matured into a mythical beast from ’93-’95, but before that he was a wild animal. In ’94, his 2 way game peaked in an epic way. His volume scoring potential trumps any other big on this list and he was a dominant defender that season. But he’s behind the other centers because he lacked their regular season consistency.

Duncan at 9th is tough too, I’ve always had a tough time comparing him against Hakeem and Shaq. But in terms of peak ability, I don’t think Duncan matched them because he didn’t have the same volume scoring ability. But Duncan was a more complete player than the other 2 and didn’t need to score 40 points to dominate a big game. Bird was a very complete offensive player, up there with anyone. He could dominate a game doing a variety of things. He was a smart defender too but limited on that end against certain forwards. He was an amazing passer as well who made the right pass and didn’t chase assists. There were other guys who I thought about, but I rank Bird 10th.

Great post, I like that you give the stats and explanation, but some questions:
1. IMO you underrate Hakeem and Bird peak, why Hakeem is lower than Kareem for example?
2. I disagree about using 1994 for Hakeem (93 more likely his peak) and 71 for kareem (74 or 77 IMO).

[ShaqAttack3234]

and wishing
ShaqAttack3234

to finish his list...

Sorry, I had forgotten myself. I'll try to finish it soon.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I hate to be the guy who quotes his own stuff but I put a lot of time into that and was wondering if anyone had thoughts on my rankings?

First of all, it's impressive you put so much effort into the post and explaining your reasoning, but the thing I'm particularly curious about is what made you choose Magic over Bird, and why that much separation with Magic at 7th and Bird at 10th?

Aside from that, I can respect your reasoning for choosing '71 as Kareem's peak based on your criteria. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be acknowledging that Kareem may have been a better player in '77 than '71, but that you think his season from start to finish was better in '71, particularly due to accolades/accomplishments, right?

One thing I'll say about that purely speaking about the regular season, I believe Kareem's better numbers as well as success have to do more with the situation. As for team success, he undoubtedly had a vastly superior team in '71. He had Oscar Robertson, who I believe was a bit past his prime, but still one of the best guards in the league and an all-nba second teamer. His third best player Bob Dandridge seemed to be one of the best all around forwards of the 70s, and would have easily been the second best player on the '77 Lakers. Meanwhile, the 4th option on the '71 Bucks Jon McGlocklin was known as one of the best shooters in the league and gave Milwaukee something similar, at least from a production standpoint to what Cazzie Russell gave the '77 Lakers as a 2nd option, despite Russell being known as the more talented individual scorer. In general, I find it extremely impressive that Kareem somehow got the '77 Lakers the best record in the league at 53-29 because they were far from the best team in the league.

As for numbers, well, Kareem played 40.1 mpg on the '71 Bucks while '77 Kareem played just 36.8 and I don't think this is a case of Kareem being too old to play the extra minutes yet because he was just 29, 30 by the playoffs and played 39.5 mpg two seasons later. His TRB% didn't change much going from 18.9% in '71 to 18.4% in '77, and his assist numbers were superior. I don't like to judge passing by assists, but it'd make sense that he improved as a passer since most players usually do as their careers go on, though I've seen Kareem making some nice passes in early 70s Bucks games and footage.

The additional scoring is something I read little to nothing into when comparing '71 to '77. As Kareem showed in the '77 playoffs, he could score pretty much whenever he wanted, and in addition to the minutes, and '71 being pre-merger, Kareem himself said he was usually played one on one early in his career, and that he was constantly doubled by '77, which obviously impacts the type of numbers you'll put up.

"The first four or five years I was in the league, I was played basically one on one. There are 2 1/2 men on me all of the time now. One in back, one in front and a guard going for the ball. It's made it necessary for me to do other things."

I still understand your reasoning based on your criteria. Just commenting in general on Kareem's '71 vs '77. But what I will say is that Kareem led one of the most dominant teams in NBA history in '71, which is more significant than leading a weak team to the best record, imo. As for his game, I will say that I believe young Kareem was more active consistently, particularly running the floor and perhaps at the defensive end. Milwaukee was first in opponents FG% in '71, while the '77 Lakers were 5th in opponents FG%, and 11th in defensive rating, slightly above league average in the latter.

[Gregoire]

and wishing
ShaqAttack3234

to finish his list...

Sorry, I had forgotten myself. I'll try to finish it soon.

Thanks! Hoping other mentioned posters would give the lists too...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Thanks! Hoping other mentioned posters would give the lists too...

Alright, I'll tell you where I'm at now. I have decided on a top 5 and a top 3 for that matter. Shaq, MJ and Hakeem are my top 3 and rounding out my top 5 will be '67 Wilt and '77 Kareem. It was a tough decision to choose between Kareem and Bird, but I ultimately went with Kareem because I think he was probably the best offensive big man of all-time, and as a shot blocking center, and presence around the rim, I think he had a significantly greater impact defensively than Bird was capable of, despite Larry being a fine team defender.

The only thing I'm thinking of at the moment is the order of MJ, Shaq and Hakeem. As I said, I consider MJ the greatest offensive player ever, but considering Shaq and Dream were great offensive players themselves and capable of making an impact on the boards and defensively that a guard couldn't, I'm just thinking about what was greater in terms of impact, MJ's advantage offensively, or Shaq and Dream defensively and on the boards.

[Gregoire]

Thanks! Hoping other mentioned posters would give the lists too...

Alright, I'll tell you where I'm at now. I have decided on a top 5 and a top 3 for that matter. Shaq, MJ and Hakeem are my top 3 and rounding out my top 5 will be '67 Wilt and '77 Kareem. It was a tough decision to choose between Kareem and Bird, but I ultimately went with Kareem because I think he was probably the best offensive big man of all-time, and as a shot blocking center, and presence around the rim, I think he had a significantly greater impact defensively than Bird was capable of, despite Larry being a fine team defender.

The only thing I'm thinking of at the moment is the order of MJ, Shaq and Hakeem. As I said, I consider MJ the greatest offensive player ever, but considering Shaq and Dream were great offensive players themselves and capable of making an impact on the boards and defensively that a guard couldn't, I'm just thinking about what was greater in terms of impact, MJ's advantage offensively, or Shaq and Dream defensively and on the boards.

So, at the oment you have 1-3 MJ,Shaq and Hakeem without order and 4.Wilt 5.Kareem?
About offense and defense: My take on it - offense have superior value because of how one player can impact offense and how one player can impact defense. IMO defense is more about coaching and team thing, while great individual offensive player could carry very solid load by his own. Also I value offense over defense overall because my opinion is: great offense beat great defense, but its arguably.
Thats why I take peak Jordan over peak Shaq and Wilt and peak Lebron over peak Hakeem.
In Jordans case we also have huge edge in intangibles and clutch (Lebron have the clutch edge too over centers). Intangibles include: raise the game on command, play better in the possesions that matter the most (enegry distribution), huge clutch factor, durability, absence of obvious weaknesses which can be explouded: FT and PnR defense for Shaq and Wilt, shooting for Leron ect, bbal IQ and ability to take over the games (in these case its only eye-test can detect it, so who really watche MJ in 90-93 years and after can understand it).
So, my take at the moment:
1.MJ
2.Shaq/Wilt
3.Lebron
4. Hakeem
5. Kareem

[Gregoire]

Thanks! Hoping other mentioned posters would give the lists too...

Alright, I'll tell you where I'm at now. I have decided on a top 5 and a top 3 for that matter. Shaq, MJ and Hakeem are my top 3 and rounding out my top 5 will be '67 Wilt and '77 Kareem. It was a tough decision to choose between Kareem and Bird, but I ultimately went with Kareem because I think he was probably the best offensive big man of all-time, and as a shot blocking center, and presence around the rim, I think he had a significantly greater impact defensively than Bird was capable of, despite Larry being a fine team defender.

The only thing I'm thinking of at the moment is the order of MJ, Shaq and Hakeem. As I said, I consider MJ the greatest offensive player ever, but considering Shaq and Dream were great offensive players themselves and capable of making an impact on the boards and defensively that a guard couldn't, I'm just thinking about what was greater in terms of impact, MJ's advantage offensively, or Shaq and Dream defensively and on the boards.

One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So, at the oment you have 1-3 MJ,Shaq and Hakeem without order and 4.Wilt 5.Kareem?

Correct, though that was difficult as I said. I hate leaving '86 Bird and '13 Lebron out because of how good they are as well as Bill Walton for that matter, who I'd say probably has a top 10 peak himself. I also wondered if Wilt should crack the top 3 based on what he accomplished in that '67 season, but as I've said, it's much, much tougher for me to judge players from that long ago when there's barely any game footage to go by.

[
One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

Well, I said Kareem was probably the best offensive big man ever when you look at his sky hook, counter moves and the ability to make his free throws at 7'3", but I agree it's not a big gap. Shaq is the best I've seen at getting deep position and going up with the quick jump hook off the glass or dunking on his man, and he also has the advantage for other easy baskets like offensive rebounds and lob passes. Plus, despite his terrible free throw shooting, his physical play wore down opponents and got them into the penalty.

As for defense, that's tougher to judge because I watched the 2000 NBA season as it happened, while with Kareem, I only have a few '77 playoff games to go by and newspaper articles. As for Shaq, I know he was motivated and had a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. In Kareem's case I'm more unsure, and I'm giving Shaq the advantage for anchoring the league's best defense in 2000 while Kareem's '77 Lakers were 11th out of 22 teams, and only slightly above average.

[Gregoire]

So, at the oment you have 1-3 MJ,Shaq and Hakeem without order and 4.Wilt 5.Kareem?

Correct, though that was difficult as I said. I hate leaving '86 Bird and '13 Lebron out because of how good they are as well as Bill Walton for that matter, who I'd say probably has a top 10 peak himself. I also wondered if Wilt should crack the top 3 based on what he accomplished in that '67 season, but as I've said, it's much, much tougher for me to judge players from that long ago when there's barely any game footage to go by.

[
One more note: If you consider Kareem best offensive peak by a center and have Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq over him, so you assume than the gap between the in D is wider than in offfense? About Wilt and especially Hakeem it aybe right, but about Shaq I dont know... For me its arguably he was better defensive impact than Kareem at his peak... Maybe Shaq was better, but only slghly... But the gap between them in offense is slightly too, here I understand you... For offense and defense of these 4 great centers I go:
Peak offense:
Kareem/Shaq
Wilt
Hakeem
Peak defense:
Hakeem
Wilt
Kareem/Shaq.

Well, I said Kareem was probably the best offensive big man ever when you look at his sky hook, counter moves and the ability to make his free throws at 7'3", but I agree it's not a big gap. Shaq is the best I've seen at getting deep position and going up with the quick jump hook off the glass or dunking on his man, and he also has the advantage for other easy baskets like offensive rebounds and lob passes. Plus, despite his terrible free throw shooting, his physical play wore down opponents and got them into the penalty.

As for defense, that's tougher to judge because I watched the 2000 NBA season as it happened, while with Kareem, I only have a few '77 playoff games to go by and newspaper articles. As for Shaq, I know he was motivated and had a DPOY-caliber season in 2000. In Kareem's case I'm more unsure, and I'm giving Shaq the advantage for anchoring the league's best defense in 2000 while Kareem's '77 Lakers were 11th out of 22 teams, and only slightly above average.

For me its very tough about both Kareem vs Shaq offense and defense... I mean at their peaks Shaq was good defender besides bad PnR defense, but Kareem was more mobile, had more leght and imo was better transition defender , but Shaq was more intimidating imo and occuped more place in the lane

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
John Thomas
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
rravenred
PaulieWall
Y-Knot
Baseline Runner
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234

[Gregoire]

Still waiting at least these posters...

Doctor MJ
ElGee
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
DrazenForThree
ShaqAttack3234
Reservoirdawgs

So, nobody from these guys want to vote?

[Gregoire]

Just to discussion I post ardee post about summ of votes in 50 highest peaks project... from march 2013.


Average rankings based on personal lists

Right, apologies for not getting this done sooner. It took me a bit to collect lists from everyone who I could. The final summation rankings are based on the lists of ElGee, Positvity, fatal9, realbig3, colts18, DavidStern and myself. Bastillion only has rankings until 7, Doc hasn't been able to figure out his list yet, and more or less everyone else was waived through the project

Note, people may have wavered on the peak season of the player in question, but I'm listing the one that won first, because pretty much everyone was willing to change during the project (eg. '95 to '94 Hakeem, '71 to '77 Kareem, etc.), though the other season(s) are just being listed by the side.

1. '91 Jordan
2. '00 Shaq
3. '94 Hakeem
4. '09/'12 LeBron (the only one people are absolutely undecided on)
5. '67 Wilt
6. '77 Kareem
7. '86 Bird
8. '87 Magic
9. '03 Duncan
10. '65/'62 Russell
11. '04 Garnett
12. '77 Walton
13. '63/'64 Oscar
14. '76 Erving
15. '09/'10 Wade
16. '08 Kobe
17. '11/'06 Dirk
18. '95/'94 Robinson
19. '05/'07 Nash
20. '90 Ewing

Couple of things:

1. Russell was voted in way way way too early. I still think it was the freakiest result of the project.
2. The anti-LeBron bias in the project is now evident. He's the one with the largest shift.

Thoughts?

[ShaqAttack3234]

The current hold up for me is that I'm giving 2013 Lebron much more consideration for top 5 peak, and I'd like to get a hold of more 1993 Hakeem games since to this day, I've still seen far more games of Hakeem from '94 on.

[Gregoire]

The current hold up for me is that I'm giving 2013 Lebron much more consideration for top 5 peak, and I'd like to get a hold of more 1993 Hakeem games since to this day, I've still seen far more games of Hakeem from '94 on.

Yes, I think in realGM board Lebron had concencus top-5 peak ven before 2013, some have him top-3 or even at 1 spot... and now he became better IMO.

[Gregoire]

:noway: to the people ranking Russell's peak over Wilt's.

Seriously. This is carrying over from the peaks project. It's all just "-10 DRtg! -10 DRtg! Wowwwwww."

That's basically just as bad as RINGZZZ RINGZZZ RINGZZZ.

There is no objective thing to suggest Russell did more things of value on a basketball court in either of '64 or '65 than Wilt did in '67. The numbers don't lie, if you're volume scoring on +14.4 TS%, leading the league in rebounds, and being the point guard for a +7 offense, it's impossible to top that really.

Yes, defense is and WAS imo more team accomplishment than offense, in which individual can carry enormous load.