Horford still waiting on big-man help

[Jamaaliver]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Can't see why this would be talked about as much as it is...

Largely because AL expressed concern on the issue numerous times in the past and multiple times this year as well.

I'm sure Horford would rather guard weaker 4's. And we should care about this because?

If a man comes to you and says he is physically unable to continue doing the job you're asking him to do, it seems foolish to simply ignore him. There's a reason Drew lobbied for a Center next to AL and a reason D Ferry drafted two Centers this offseason.

[theatlfan]

Can't see why this would be talked about as much as it is...

Largely because AL expressed concern on the issue numerous times in the past and multiple times this year as well.

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

[Jamaaliver]

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

I'd have to disagree with you there. I traditionally expect my Center to be a defensive anchor and a consistent shotblocker. Offensively, I expect him to be a reliable option in the post as a back to the basket scorer.

Those are probably AL's two biggest weaknesses.

He's a solid post defender, but is not really a shot blocker. I remember back when we had Theo Ratliff and even Mutombo as Centers. Those guys blocked 2 or 3 shots a game, but also redirected a number of shots just by their presence. AL doesn't do this; it's not his game.

Offensively, AL is one of the best jump shooting bigs in recent memory. This is more in line with talents like Dirk, Duncan, Karl Malone, David West. The weakest part of AL's offensive game is easily his post scoring. (Sadly)

[MaceCase]

Asik is a good, tough man defender, but he's no rim protector. He's just not that kind of inside anchor, so you're left asking whether it's worth getting a bigger man defender inside, at the cost of losing a more talented player who can score. I tend to think you're better off with Milsap. Horford doesn't think so I'm sure, but he's got to play where he's best suited, even if he doesn't like getting roughed up in the paint. I mean, that's your job big guy. I like Horford, but I'm not a fan of telling players they don't need to play inside as much because "it will take years off my career". I'd rather you had a bigger impact in the years you play than have you play longer floating around on the perimeter trying to be Dirk Nowitzki.

LOOL @ saying asik doesnt protect the rim. That tells me you have NEVER watched him play or have no idea what it means to be a rim protector.

Please read this article. http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/15/ ... on-rockets

Rim protectors generally block shots....which Asik does not do to any particular elite degree, in fact he's no better than Al in that regard. Al demonstrates much of the same perimeter defensive abilities listed in that article yet I would love to find the poster who says that we had an elite defensive duo between him and Josh or simply refer to Al as a rim protector based on it.

[Durins Baynes]

I'm sure all 5's would like it if they didn't have to bang in the post so much. It would prolong all their careers. But if a guy is best inside, that's where you play him. Horford and Milsap is better than Horford and a middling 5 with no O, so they might as well keep him there.

Asik does not block shots or intimidate, he's a man defender- not an anchor. He's great at a man defender, but I don't see the big advantage of Asik v.s Milsap.

[theatlfan]

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

I'd have to disagree with you there. I traditionally expect my Center to be a defensive anchor and a consistent shotblocker. Offensively, I expect him to be a reliable option in the post as a back to the basket scorer.

Those are probably AL's two biggest weaknesses.

He's a solid post defender, but is not really a shot blocker. I remember back when we had Theo Ratliff and even Mutombo as Centers. Those guys blocked 2 or 3 shots a game, but also redirected a number of shots just by their presence. AL doesn't do this; it's not his game.

Offensively, AL is one of the best jump shooting bigs in recent memory. This is more in line with talents like Dirk, Duncan, Karl Malone, David West. The weakest part of AL's offensive game is easily his post scoring. (Sadly)

You might want to reread my posts...

Elton Brand ranked 34th in blocks/36 last year (remove guys with <1000 minutes, then he's in the top 20) and was the league leader in PPP against Post-ups in '11-'12. Brand actually got some under-the-radar push for DPotY in '11-'12 for his all around defensive game as he is also a noted help defender and gets steals in the lane. He's a 270+ lb mass of humanity that can absorb punishment from anyone. Further, he is noted for his intelligence and professionalism. Sure, he isn't the Offensive low post dominator that he was just less than a decade ago, but he's still an efficient jump shooter in the mid-range.

Here's the deal: in 48 minutes, the opponent's #1 C will probably play about 32 minutes. For 20-24 of those minutes, I expect Brand to be defending him. Yes, that leaves 8-12 minutes that someone (in all likelihood, Horford) will have to cover him, but it's not like we have Horford will have to take the pounding from Pekovic for 48 minutes. Probably somewhere around 10.

Is Brand the long term answer? No, I'd guess Brand wouldn't even think so. Will Brand save any excessive wear and tear on Horford's body this season? There's no doubt in my mind here.

[MaceCase]

The real issue here is that Al is upset that he still won't get to call himself a full-time or starting PF. The team has had pretty good Center depth behind him before and the starting lineup has often been changed to accommodate him against bigger and offensively competent Centers over the last 3 years. Ferry continues that trend by drafting 2 Centers for the future while signing another 2 and claiming one off waivers for the present yet Al is still complaining.

Were this any other player you would have already seen the "Diva" title thrown around. His complaints are more a personal preference rather than a team goal. Additionally, all of Al's success has come from playing primarily next to a player both smaller and possessing lesser length than him, yup, even in college.

[BAMABIRD]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

[MaceCase]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

I agree, Chandler Parsons and James Harden were pretty vocal about their pursuit of Dwight talking about how' they'd call and text him everyday. We can't place blame solely on the front office being unable to attract star players when these days you have it that players themselves are doing most of the recruiting seeing as they are free of tampering charges.

Al has been in All Star lockerrooms, he was a big part of the players' union, he's always on all of sponsored international trips, he most definitely should be in tight with all of the top tier players in this league outside of just those who he roomed with in college.

I'm not saying that it's foolproof or that there was actually a player that we should have acquired but he's not doing the team any favors when he's the lone remaining star and instead of acting as the spearhead for attracting players to actually come help him he's publicly attacking an already much maligned front office.

[Jamaaliver]

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

Fair point. I found it revealing that Houston's recruiting party included Harden and Chandler plus the Head Coach, GM and legendary Houston Centers of the past.

Our recruiting party included Bud and Ferry, two guys Howard probably never heard of or saw play...

I'm sure all 5's would like it if they didn't have to bang in the post so much. It would prolong all their careers. But if a guy is best inside, that's where you play him.

I don't know. I've heard Drummond and Hibbert say how much they love banging in the post. Largely because they're bigger than 99% of the guys guarding them. Rodman, Ben Wallace, Shaq are other guys who loved getting dirty and flexing their muscle in close to the basket.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say AL is best inside. I mean, clearly he's a solid post defender, but offensively he operates best in the midragnge area, allowing him to use that beautiful jumpshot or pass to wing players cutting to the basket.

[Jamaaliver]

And yet another reason why AL needs to be preserved:

Al Horford did not accompany the Atlanta Hawks for their road game in Dallas and will miss the preseason finale due to a lingering hamstring problem.

Seriously, AL is always nursing some lingering injury. And as Roddy White will tell you, hamstring injuries tend to linger...

[Jamaaliver]

And Lucas Nogueira is proving to be even MORE injury prone.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/10/23/4946898/lucas-nogueira-injury-hamstring-estudiantes-atlanta-hawks

[Durins Baynes]

Even the biggest of big men start to complain as their careers go on. For years, even on the Lakers, Shaq moaned about not having more help inside to rebound for him, and take the pressure off. He wanted a Ho Grant like player to do his dirty work on the boards and let him do less banging (so basically he wanted a poor mans Horford to do a lot of his work on the glass for him). If you can get a guy like that to pair him with, you do it. But you don't make your team worse in order to take a guy away from his strength. Shaq needed to play inside more and stop complaining (especially on D and on the boards- you know, after someone takes a shot), and Horford basically is in the same position. If you can get a guy who lets him play the 4 without getting worse, then good, but Asik isn't really an improvement over Milsap talent wise. It's better to wait for the right deal, than to make a move just to get a worse starter who happens to be a 5.

[tbhawksfan]

Put a competant CENTER next to Horford and....the Hawks will be better. He knows that. Absolutely nothing wrong with him saying it

[Jamaaliver]

Put a competant CENTER next to Horford and....the Hawks will be better. He knows that. Absolutely nothing wrong with him saying it

Amen, brother.

A competent 7-footer gives a stronger frontcourt than we've had in over a decade.

Even the biggest of big men start to complain as their careers go on. For years, even on the Lakers, Shaq moaned about not having more help inside to rebound for him

Shaq was 7-feet, 300 pounds and lazy. AL is just tired of always being smaller than the guy guarding him. And tired of always having a PF who's smaller than the person guarding him. We've had an undersized frontcourt for most of the last decade. Time to at least TRY featuring AL with a Center.

[tsherkin]

Horford has the J and speed to be a 4.

Asik is a legit 7-footer who rebounds, defends and draws fouls. He'd be PERFECT next to Horford...

[Yungsta404]

Horford has the J and speed to be a 4.

Asik is a legit 7-footer who rebounds, defends and draws fouls. He'd be PERFECT next to Horford...

well apparently some people on here thinks that we wont be a better team with asik cause they value milsap scoring over the toughness,defense, and rebounding asik brings.

[tsherkin]

Horford has the J and speed to be a 4.

Asik is a legit 7-footer who rebounds, defends and draws fouls. He'd be PERFECT next to Horford...

well apparently some people on here thinks that we wont be a better team with asik cause they value milsap scoring over the toughness,defense, and rebounding asik brings.

I like Millsap, he's a fine player, but yeah, Asik is clearly better at both defense and rebounding, while being large enough to enable Horford to stop playing out of position, which would be good.

[MaceCase]

Horford has the J and speed to be a 4.

Asik is a legit 7-footer who rebounds, defends and draws fouls. He'd be PERFECT next to Horford...

well apparently some people on here thinks that we wont be a better team with asik cause they value milsap scoring over the toughness,defense, and rebounding asik brings.

I like Millsap, he's a fine player, but yeah, Asik is clearly better at both defense and rebounding, while being large enough to enable Horford to stop playing out of position, which would be good.

You say "good" but the question is whether it would be "better". There are surely areas of the game that Asik is great at and there are others that Millsap excels at but overall is it a move that particularly propels the Hawks up the standings?

The big unknown in the debate is Horford himself. Some believe that beyond just his whining over personal preference and having to use less ice after games that he is an entirely different animal at the 4 than he's ever demonstrated at the 5 (or any of the other instances where he has actually played at, functioned as, defended or been defended by the 4). Others reason that from evidence and display of his actual skillset that whatever he will gain defensively he will lose offensively.......thus making it one big push overall.




So now moving beyond the hypothetical of some posters on this board somehow being the ones responsible for holding up Daryl Morey from shipping Asik to the Hawks for Millsap.... Danny Ferry has managed to build a flexible team in the interim until, I guess, we lose veto power.

Is it perfect? No, but as has been explained before, Al has and has had players on the roster that can take the defensive burden off of him having to defend all of these burly fellows while also having frontcourt players good enough on offense to allow for him to take advantage of those same slow plodders that can't keep up with him. That latter part is a bonus he wouldn't have with Asik, teams aren't exactly going to be throwing their better frontcourt defender at Asik simply because he's tall. Heck, you'd wonder if they'd have any defender on him outside of boxing out after a shot went up and in case you haven't noticed, there are no Derrick Roses or James Hardens on this team to make up the scoring.

[Jamaaliver]

The big unknown in the debate is Horford himself. Some believe that beyond just his whining over personal preference and having to use less ice after games

I'm not sure it's as simple as him whining or being worried about icing down his soreness.

Again, he's already lost a season to injury. And spent half of last season playing while recovering from that same injury. Now he's nursing a hamstring injury, a malady that tends to linger for weeks/months.

Horford's never struck me as a guy who whines; this seems like a legitimate concern, long and short term. Not only do we not have a starting Center to play next to him, we don't even have a reliable BACKUP to spell Horford. (Ayon is unproven and already injured.) If AL were to go down to injury for an extended amount of time, we would literally be stuck with 3 power forwards as our frontcourt.

Again, it's not as if it's only me, parson and Horford asking for the switch. I've heard a dozen coaches, scouts, players, analysts over the years mention how good Horford was at PF and how good he could be at the position. Under Drew, he spent almost half the game at PF.

How good would he be as a power forward?

“He’d be a beast,” coach Larry Drew said.

He is taking a beating, particularly at the defensive end. Drew is trying to minimize the issue by going with a “big” lineup about 40 percent of the time: Horford moves to power forward, Josh Smith to small forward, Jason Collins steps in at center and Marvin Williams goes to the bench.

Drew admitted, “I’ve even thought of making the change permanent.”

http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2011/02/08/al-horford-an-all-star-at-center-but-hes-taking-a-beating/

In truth, I'm pretty sure Horford is leaving as soon as he gets the chance should things not improve. Why take a beating at the wrong position for a team going nowhere? I seem to be hearing more and more quotes from him like this one:

My biggest thing is I'm going to try and take care of my body as best I can ... yeah, I was under the impression some changes were going to happen. They didn't happen. And I have to deal with it and adjust to this new style of play."

Or this one:

“I was hoping to play more in the power forward position," Horford said. "We couldn’t work things out with Zaza (Pachulia) and he had to leave. I understand that now I have to go play some center. I would like to play a little more power forward. I was talking to coach (Mike Budenholzer) and the way that the offense works, the 4 and the 5 are pretty much interchangeable.

"Having to guard the big 5 night in and night out, I felt took a toll on me so I’m hoping they will be able to find a big body, a big player to be able to help."

http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/atlanta-hawks/2013/jul/15/horford-prepared-stay-center/