Trade Landscape/Trade Ideas

[rickrolled]

Nerlens Noel out for the season for Philly.

Let's dump Humphries on them, they have 11 players guaranteed, with 2 players (Noel and White) not playing.

And they have tons of cap space to absorb Humphries.

Moultrie is still very raw, and they have Hawes,Allen,Brown as their only other bigs excluding Young.

[Havlicek17]

I think we could get more for Humphries than just a salary dump to the Sixers.

There will be teams looking to move players at the deadline for expiring contracts. It happens every year, and that's when some of the top NBA players are traded. His contract is for $12 Mil/yr if I am not mistaken. That makes him a key asset in a deal when the trade partner is going in another direction...decided to rebuild...lowering salary for tax reasons, etc.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Yeah, the problem is there are always expiring contracts. Detroit has a bunch, Utah, too. Most likely we deal Humphries for a contract ending next summer, plus an asset (pick or prospect). Or we let him expire. Maybe Humphries+ (Wallace? Bass/Lee?) for Amare/pick..

[klemen4]

If WASHINGTON Okafor is out for a longer time we could use the situation.
They are extremely weak at pf spot (Booker, Vesely)

Bass, Bogans(exp.), Brooks
for
Okafor, 2nd rounder

Im ok just that we get out of Bass contract, also if no pick is involved.

[Slartibartfast]

If WASHINGTON Okafor is out for a longer time we could use the situation.
They are extremely weak at pf spot (Booker, Vesely)

Bass, Bogans(exp.), Brooks
for
Okafor, 2nd rounder

Im ok just that we get out of Bass contract, also if no pick is involved.

Getting rid of Bass would allow us to see more of Green/Wallace at the 4 too (key for building up their trade value).

Washington would probably want a center back in an Okafor trade, though. Nene's injury prone (and more of a PF/C than a pure C) and Seraphin's not the kind of guy an aspiring playoff team wants to depend on.

I still think Miami's our best bet for a Bass trade. Their offense generates a ton of mid-range J's for their big men, their defense depends on speed and versatility. Haslem is washed-up as an offensive player (and slowing down as a defender too). Beasley is an unreliable headcase. Bass is a proven playoff rotation player who fits their system and has plenty of juice left.

Bass for Joel Anthony, James Jones and a 2nd rounder. We go into next season with $3 mil less on our cap, and we finish out this season with better roster balance:

Rondo/Pressey/Crawford
Bradley/Lee/Brooks/Bogans
Green/Wallace/Jones
Sully/KO/Hump
Faverani/Anthony

Bogans & Hump are some expensive deadweight, but Bogans un-guaranteed deal will be handy in the offseason and I can't think of what to do with Hump in a trade. I'd love to use him in a Pau trade, but that's pretty unlikely.

[24istheLAW]

Earlier in this thread I suggested a trade with Wallace. Wallace's contract is for 3 years at around $10 Mil/season. The Grantland article says that Gordon's contract is toxic to NO. They have a log jam at the 2 spot, desperately need a starting quality SF, and Gordon's contract is for 3 years at ~$14 Mil/season.

In the first half of the season, I believe Wallace will prove to be one of the better starting caliber SF's in the league, and in a contract swap for Gordon, saves NO ~$14 Mil over the next 3 years.

Of course, we'd have to throw someone else into the trade to make the numbers work, but that extra player would likely either fill another hole (like Vitor would do for their Center position) or be shorter term like an expiring this season (maybe Crawford).

Sounds great.... for us.

I don't see why the Pelicans do it. They have a guy in Aminu who brings a similar presence, albeit with less skill (great rebounding, finishing above the rim and on the break, energy/athleticism on defense).

And trading away Gordon, however unreliable he may be, would significantly hurt their ability to contend (and once you've spent all that on good vets why turn back?)

I would LOVE Gordon and Rondo as a pairing though. Rondo/Gordon/AB would EASILY be the best backcourt in the NBA.

[KGboss]

Noel being out for the season smells of tanking and the league office can see that.

[Pogue Mahone]

Noel being out for the season smells of tanking and the league office can see that.

And Phoenix trading Gortat for a hurt player is similar, I think. Appears that way, at least.

---------------------------------

Two trade ideas I have been tossing around in my head since the the Nyets trade went down are a package of Andre Miller/Wilson Chandler/Anthony Randolph and also Nicolas Batum/Meyers Leonard.

The Denver deal, I would give up Humphries, Crawford, Brooks and 2014 1st RD Pick (Atl-Brk).

The Portland deal, I would give up Green, Bass, Sullinger and 2014 1st RD Pick (Bos).

(Rondo) - Miller - Pressey
Bradley - Chandler
Batum - Chandler/Wallace
Olynyk - Wallace/Chandler - Leonard
Faverani - Leonard

Depth: (Pressey), Randolph, Lee, Bogans

That is a playoff team with lots of room for internal growth, imo. Rondo, Miller, Bradley, Chandler, Batum and Wallace are all above-average to elite defenders. Bradley (playing off ball), Chandler, Batum and possibly Olynyk, Leonard and Faverani provide outside threats. Even if you were to bring Bradley off the bench (I wouldn't) and started Chandler or slid Batum to SG and started Wallace, there is a **** ton of positional and defensive versatility.

I am certainly higher on Batum and Leonard than most. I actually think Leonard has the potential to be a stud as a fast break center. Additionally, Chandler's performance defensively for Denver last season was outrageous in his overall impact. That he provided offense with that makes him extremely undervalued.

The Celtics would still be armed with the salary ballast, young players and draft picks to acquire a proven star if the opportunity arose. They would shed some salary to sign deep depth on minimum contract (Balkman and Tyler would be my first two targets.)

The only thing I might hesitate on is Sullinger but I think Batum, and to a lesser extent Leonard, are worth that investment.

[Waider]

Noel being out for the season smells of tanking and the league office can see that.

And Phoenix trading Gortat for a hurt player is similar, I think. Appears that way, at least.

---------------------------------

Two trade ideas I have been tossing around in my head since the the Nyets trade went down are a package of Andre Miller/Wilson Chandler/Anthony Randolph and also Nicolas Batum/Meyers Leonard.

The Denver deal, I would give up Humphries, Crawford, Brooks and 2014 1st RD Pick (Atl-Brk).

The Portland deal, I would give up Green, Bass, Sullinger and 2014 1st RD Pick (Bos).

(Rondo) - Miller - Pressey
Bradley - Chandler
Batum - Chandler/Wallace
Olynyk - Wallace/Chandler - Leonard
Faverani - Leonard

Depth: (Pressey), Randolph, Lee, Bogans

That is a playoff team with lots of room for internal growth, imo. Rondo, Miller, Bradley, Chandler, Batum and Wallace are all above-average to elite defenders. Bradley (playing off ball), Chandler, Batum and possibly Olynyk, Leonard and Faverani provide outside threats. Even if you were to bring Bradley off the bench (I wouldn't) and started Chandler or slid Batum to SG and started Wallace, there is a **** ton of positional and defensive versatility.

I am certainly higher on Batum and Leonard than most. I actually think Leonard has the potential to be a stud as a fast break center. Additionally, Chandler's performance defensively for Denver last season was outrageous in his overall impact. That he provided offense with that makes him extremely undervalued.

The Celtics would still be armed with the salary ballast, young players and draft picks to acquire a proven star if the opportunity arose. They would shed some salary to sign deep depth on minimum contract (Balkman and Tyler would be my first two targets.)

The only thing I might hesitate on is Sullinger but I think Batum, and to a lesser extent Leonard, are worth that investment.

I certainly respect your opinion & inside knowledge of the league but I can see no way we'd give up our 2014 pick for Batum & Leonard - as well as giving up Sully. I dislike that deal immensely. I do like the other one however, but combined I am not a fan. Don't see how it turns us into contenders or on the road to contending better than the current road we are on.

[Pogue Mahone]

I certainly respect your opinion & inside knowledge of the league but I can see no way we'd give up our 2014 pick for Batum & Leonard - as well as giving up Sully. I dislike that deal immensely. I do like the other one however, but combined I am not a fan. Don't see how it turns us into contenders or on the road to contending better than the current road we are on.

I think Sullinger's upside is a Al Jefferson-like player. Ideally a 20-25 mpg bench piece on a good team in a Corliss Williamson type role. Overextending that, not so much.

As I mentioned in my post, I think Leonard could be a very good center on an uptempo team. He has a repeatable stroke, rebounds enough to be competitive, has the length to bother shots and the quickness to cause mismatches in the open court. Depending how you look at it, it's unfortunate/fortunate that he still has a ways to go. Personally, I think he is 2500-3000 MP away from being really valuable. I think his floor is Detroit version of Okur as I feel that his body will fill out a bit more. I also picture him as a much better team defender.

Green doesn't consistently defend at the level Batum does. Batum is also the better offensive player. I feel Green is an on-again/off-again player. Batum is one of my favorite wings in the game.

I think the team I outlined is a 5-7th seed in the East this year and would catch fire in the 2nd half. That's likely pick 16-20 or so. They would hurt a lot of older teams with their speed advantage, probably be average or so in the half-court and with all the length, quickness, ball-denial and backcourt pressure, would be a heck of a defense.

I picture that team as a 2011-12 Indiana type team but at a faster pace. If they could acquire a good defensive center with their remaining pieces (7 1st RD picks after this season, contracts of Lee, Miller and potentially Wallace) it would be a very dangerous team (pressure to force a short shotclock, length and quickness to shutdown passing lanes, close-outs on shooters and funneling any penetration to a shot-blocker)

There are too many moving parts involved for it to actually happen. I just enjoy the mental exercise of fixing what we have without relying on the slimmest of chances at improvement via the lottery.

I appreciate your feedback.

[Waider]

I certainly respect your opinion & inside knowledge of the league but I can see no way we'd give up our 2014 pick for Batum & Leonard - as well as giving up Sully. I dislike that deal immensely. I do like the other one however, but combined I am not a fan. Don't see how it turns us into contenders or on the road to contending better than the current road we are on.

I think Sullinger's upside is a Al Jefferson-like player. Ideally a 20-25 mpg bench piece on a good team in a Corliss Williamson type role. Overextending that, not so much.

As I mentioned in my post, I think Leonard could be a very good center on an uptempo team. He has a repeatable stroke, rebounds enough to be competitive, has the length to bother shots and the quickness to cause mismatches in the open court. Depending how you look at it, it's unfortunate/fortunate that he still has a ways to go. Personally, I think he is 2500-3000 MP away from being really valuable. I think his floor is Detroit version of Okur as I feel that his body will fill out a bit more. I also picture him as a much better team defender.

Green doesn't consistently defend at the level Batum does. Batum is also the better offensive player. I feel Green is an on-again/off-again player. Batum is one of my favorite wings in the game.

I think the team I outlined is a 5-7th seed in the East this year and would catch fire in the 2nd half. That's likely pick 16-20 or so. They would hurt a lot of older teams with their speed advantage, probably be average or so in the half-court and with all the length, quickness, ball-denial and backcourt pressure, would be a heck of a defense.

I picture that team as a 2011-12 Indiana type team but at a faster pace. If they could acquire a good defensive center with their remaining pieces (7 1st RD picks after this season, contracts of Lee, Miller and potentially Wallace) it would be a very dangerous team (pressure to force a short shotclock, length and quickness to shutdown passing lanes, close-outs on shooters and funneling any penetration to a shot-blocker)

There are too many moving parts involved for it to actually happen. I just enjoy the mental exercise of fixing what we have without relying on the slimmest of chances at improvement via the lottery.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thanks for the outline, it certainly does all make sense & translate well. I can't necessarily disagree with too much you have said. Just for me, however, I sense that type of splash wouldn't be enough to tempt Ainge & ownership. For mine they are surveying the landscape trying to figure out how to pinch the best possible All-Star talent away that they can with their warchest. Batum wouldn't be enough for them. Green OR Rondo will be moved by the draft next year, whoever can garner the best offer. I'm hoping Green has a big year as I would 100% rather move him. I also feel we won't do anything to hinder getting a 4-7 draft pick to add to a newly acquired star & Rondo (hopefully).

All just my opinion though, certainly don't have anything to back that up.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to reply, I respect your opinion.

[brackdan70]

Noel being out for the season smells of tanking and the league office can see that.

And Phoenix trading Gortat for a hurt player is similar, I think. Appears that way, at least.

---------------------------------

Two trade ideas I have been tossing around in my head since the the Nyets trade went down are a package of Andre Miller/Wilson Chandler/Anthony Randolph and also Nicolas Batum/Meyers Leonard.

The Denver deal, I would give up Humphries, Crawford, Brooks and 2014 1st RD Pick (Atl-Brk).

The Portland deal, I would give up Green, Bass, Sullinger and 2014 1st RD Pick (Bos).

(Rondo) - Miller - Pressey
Bradley - Chandler
Batum - Chandler/Wallace
Olynyk - Wallace/Chandler - Leonard
Faverani - Leonard

Depth: (Pressey), Randolph, Lee, Bogans

That is a playoff team with lots of room for internal growth, imo. Rondo, Miller, Bradley, Chandler, Batum and Wallace are all above-average to elite defenders. Bradley (playing off ball), Chandler, Batum and possibly Olynyk, Leonard and Faverani provide outside threats. Even if you were to bring Bradley off the bench (I wouldn't) and started Chandler or slid Batum to SG and started Wallace, there is a **** ton of positional and defensive versatility.

I am certainly higher on Batum and Leonard than most. I actually think Leonard has the potential to be a stud as a fast break center. Additionally, Chandler's performance defensively for Denver last season was outrageous in his overall impact. That he provided offense with that makes him extremely undervalued.

The Celtics would still be armed with the salary ballast, young players and draft picks to acquire a proven star if the opportunity arose. They would shed some salary to sign deep depth on minimum contract (Balkman and Tyler would be my first two targets.)

The only thing I might hesitate on is Sullinger but I think Batum, and to a lesser extent Leonard, are worth that investment.

Interesting ideas for sure. I like Chandler, Batum and Leonards potential a lot.
In the Portland scenario I think the Cs would need to take a little more Salary to make it work under the CBA no?
The Denver deal really seems to favor the Celtics. Would the Brooklyn pick be enough to get them to bite?

I think you are right that that gives the Cs a young playoff team right away..with potential to improve. I am not sure the ceiling though? could that team become a contender? maybe. would still have a bunch of picks to work with in the future.

i think i would do those deals but the hope of a top 5 pick this year and the potential there might give me pause. And i also don't think Denver would do that deal but if we threw in another pick in 2015 or 2016...maybe.

[Pogue Mahone]

Noel being out for the season smells of tanking and the league office can see that.

And Phoenix trading Gortat for a hurt player is similar, I think. Appears that way, at least.

---------------------------------

Two trade ideas I have been tossing around in my head since the the Nyets trade went down are a package of Andre Miller/Wilson Chandler/Anthony Randolph and also Nicolas Batum/Meyers Leonard.

The Denver deal, I would give up Humphries, Crawford, Brooks and 2014 1st RD Pick (Atl-Brk).

The Portland deal, I would give up Green, Bass, Sullinger and 2014 1st RD Pick (Bos).

(Rondo) - Miller - Pressey
Bradley - Chandler
Batum - Chandler/Wallace
Olynyk - Wallace/Chandler - Leonard
Faverani - Leonard

Depth: (Pressey), Randolph, Lee, Bogans

That is a playoff team with lots of room for internal growth, imo. Rondo, Miller, Bradley, Chandler, Batum and Wallace are all above-average to elite defenders. Bradley (playing off ball), Chandler, Batum and possibly Olynyk, Leonard and Faverani provide outside threats. Even if you were to bring Bradley off the bench (I wouldn't) and started Chandler or slid Batum to SG and started Wallace, there is a **** ton of positional and defensive versatility.

I am certainly higher on Batum and Leonard than most. I actually think Leonard has the potential to be a stud as a fast break center. Additionally, Chandler's performance defensively for Denver last season was outrageous in his overall impact. That he provided offense with that makes him extremely undervalued.

The Celtics would still be armed with the salary ballast, young players and draft picks to acquire a proven star if the opportunity arose. They would shed some salary to sign deep depth on minimum contract (Balkman and Tyler would be my first two targets.)

The only thing I might hesitate on is Sullinger but I think Batum, and to a lesser extent Leonard, are worth that investment.

Interesting ideas for sure. I like Chandler, Batum and Leonards potential a lot.
In the Portland scenario I think the Cs would need to take a little more Salary to make it work under the CBA no?
The Denver deal really seems to favor the Celtics. Would the Brooklyn pick be enough to get them to bite?

I think you are right that that gives the Cs a young playoff team right away..with potential to improve. I am not sure the ceiling though? could that team become a contender? maybe. would still have a bunch of picks to work with in the future.

i think i would do those deals but the hope of a top 5 pick this year and the potential there might give me pause. And i also don't think Denver would do that deal but if we threw in another pick in 2015 or 2016...maybe.

Miller's minutes are likely going to be slim. They have Lawson, Robinson and Foye. You would have to think the other available minutes at off-guard would be going to Fournier, right?

If that is the case, at quick forward, they have Galinari, Hamilton, Fournier and possibly sneak a few minutes there for Faried.

At strong forward, they have Faried, Arthur, Hickson and possibly some Galinari.

They have really good depth. I don't see where the minutes for Andre Miller will come from. Wilson Chandler's presence means you are pushing the development timeline of both Hamilton and Fournier back and will likely cut into some of Galinari's minutes when he returns to full health. Right now not a big problem but in about two months or so, they will have a major logjam.

I am not sure how much extra salary the Celtics could take on and who Denver would be willing to give up. After the trade of Koufos, they have basically McGee and Mozgov in the pivot. The next highest salaries, outside of Lawson, are what we would taking back. The other salaries are from the newly acquired and Galinari.

We can offer them future salary relief and picks for some of their depth. Chandler is the main reason I would do it. However, having Miller as part of the package is a major benefit (can guard most SG, allows Bradley to move off the ball, provides insurance on the return of Rondo). And like you said, if they want another pick, I would gladly do it.

As to future potential, in my mind's eye, at least, I see that team as an uptempo, mismatch nightmare. They wouldn't really be susceptible to cross-matches but could take advantage of that when it happened on the offensive end. I personally think both Batum and Chandler are better than Jeff Green (once you factor in both sides of the ball.) I think Rondo as the engine makes that team very, very dangerous. True contender? Probably not. I would still like to acquire a shotblocker/rebounder-type center. A pre-injury version of Perkins would suffice, I think. I also think that team needs a small guard who can run the offense but also score a bit for the second unit (Miller is mainly about this year.) My hope is that Bradley would be able to eventually grow into that position but I think he is a perfect compliment to Rondo in the foreseeable future.

[24istheLAW]

Really dislike trading the 2014 BOS pick. Batum is a very good player, but is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Since Rondo isn't a shooter, and Batum is more of a spot up guy, you are going to need to acquire an elite 1st option on offense, or a decent first option and a 2nd option (Olynyk?), to have a championship team. That move pins our title chances on free agency basically.

If the pick involved is protected, then its another matter.

[Pogue Mahone]

Really dislike trading the 2014 BOS pick. Batum is a very good player, but is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Since Rondo isn't a shooter, and Batum is more of a spot up guy, you are going to need to acquire an elite 1st option on offense, or a decent first option and a 2nd option (Olynyk?), to have a championship team. That move pins our title chances on free agency basically.

If the pick involved is protected, then its another matter.

No snark intended but I am not following.

Maybe the disconnect is the 1st-2nd option? What, exactly, does a 1st option do? Collapse the defense, draw double-teams and find the open man for convertible baskets? Rondo is one of the better players in the league at doing that. His presence allows his teammates to play at greater efficiency shooting the ball. That Dork Rivers played the hand of a loser's gambit was on him. One of the most glaring weaknesses on offense of the Dork Rivers-era Celtics was turnovers. Rivers' insistence on running Ray off of picks, taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and putting him off the ball and essentially disabling two positions on the floor offensively with his scheme almost cost this team a championship. As the team aged and pieces moved, the pace got slower and slower.

Save for a three month stretch, Rondo has never been in a situation where players that accented his game have consistently been on the court with him. The style of play was tailored for others players and not him. If anything, a 4-time all-star has played the majority of his career in a sub-optimal role for his skill-set.

Or are you referring to players who can create in isolation? How is it any different than a pick-and-roll? Or ball/player movement? Even if Rondo's own turnovers are high, the majority of his teammates will be highly efficient (unless they try to stranglehold the offense like 2011-13 Paul Pierce.)

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to do these two deals, the net is that they would be down two, possibly three, 1st RD''ers. Each of those three 1sts are likely non-lottery picks. They would still have 6 (or 7) first rounders over the next five seasons, barring further moves. None of those picks, save possibly the 2017 Brooklyn swap and 2018 Brooklyn pick, looks to be anywhere near the lottery if they were to go down the path I laid out above. I am not advocating giving those Brooklyn picks up. Bogans would either fall off at the end of the year or could be used in a trade before the start of next season. They would be over the cap so free agency in the immediate future wouldn't really be an option, save for by exception. They could still acquire players via trade.

If they do nothing, they have 9 first rd picks in the next five years. If they trade Humphries, they have guaranteed salary likely for at least next season. If they allow Bogans, Crawford and Humphries to expire, once renounced, factoring in raises, cap-holds and Bradley's likely extension, they will be over the cap and the only option to add players will be by trade or exception.

I would rather be competing and retain flexibility to add a major piece if it shakes loose than floundering in the lottery waiting for a major piece to shake loose and then find out he doesn't want to come here because it's a desperate situation, despite having a top-10 pick in the last two drafts.

Maybe I don't view basketball through the lens of ball-dominant scorers who can't effectively set-up teammates being the focus of the offense. Whether it is a point-guard, ball-dominant wing or point-forward, you have to have playmakers. The issue is when the playmaking is not actual playmaking but just happenstance as a by-product of having the ball so much <cough>Derrick Rose<cough>Russell Westbrook<cough>.

[24istheLAW]

Really dislike trading the 2014 BOS pick. Batum is a very good player, but is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Since Rondo isn't a shooter, and Batum is more of a spot up guy, you are going to need to acquire an elite 1st option on offense, or a decent first option and a 2nd option (Olynyk?), to have a championship team. That move pins our title chances on free agency basically.

If the pick involved is protected, then its another matter.

No snark intended but I am not following.

Maybe the disconnect is the 1st-2nd option? What, exactly, does a 1st option do? Collapse the defense, draw double-teams and find the open man for convertible baskets? Rondo is one of the better players in the league at doing that. His presence allows his teammates to play at greater efficiency shooting the ball. That Dork Rivers played the hand of a loser's gambit was on him. One of the most glaring weaknesses on offense of the Dork Rivers-era Celtics was turnovers. Rivers' insistence on running Ray off of picks, taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and putting him off the ball and essentially disabling two positions on the floor offensively with his scheme almost cost this team a championship. As the team aged and pieces moved, the pace got slower and slower.

Save for a three month stretch, Rondo has never been in a situation where players that accented his game have consistently been on the court with him. The style of play was tailored for others players and not him. If anything, a 4-time all-star has played the majority of his career in a sub-optimal role for his skill-set.

Or are you referring to players who can create in isolation? How is it any different than a pick-and-roll? Or ball/player movement? Even if Rondo's own turnovers are high, the majority of his teammates will be highly efficient (unless they try to stranglehold the offense like 2011-13 Paul Pierce.)

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to do these two deals, the net is that they would be down two, possibly three, 1st RD''ers. Each of those three 1sts are likely non-lottery picks. They would still have 6 (or 7) first rounders over the next five seasons, barring further moves. None of those picks, save possibly the 2017 Brooklyn swap and 2018 Brooklyn pick, looks to be anywhere near the lottery if they were to go down the path I laid out above. I am not advocating giving those Brooklyn picks up. Bogans would either fall off at the end of the year or could be used in a trade before the start of next season. They would be over the cap so free agency in the immediate future wouldn't really be an option, save for by exception. They could still acquire players via trade.

If they do nothing, they have 9 first rd picks in the next five years. If they trade Humphries, they have guaranteed salary likely for at least next season. If they allow Bogans, Crawford and Humphries to expire, once renounced, factoring in raises, cap-holds and Bradley's likely extension, they will be over the cap and the only option to add players will be by trade or exception.

I would rather be competing and retain flexibility to add a major piece if it shakes loose than floundering in the lottery waiting for a major piece to shake loose and then find out he doesn't want to come here because it's a desperate situation, despite having a top-10 pick in the last two drafts.

Maybe I don't view basketball through the lens of ball-dominant scorers who can't effectively set-up teammates being the focus of the offense. Whether it is a point-guard, ball-dominant wing or point-forward, you have to have playmakers. The issue is when the playmaking is not actual playmaking but just happenstance as a by-product of having the ball so much <cough>Derrick Rose<cough>Russell Westbrook<cough>.

No snark taken. Good post.

IMO until RR can at least shoot free throws, he's not going to be a 1st option, and IMO not even a 2nd option, on a championship team. To win a championship you need a player who can barrel into backpedaling defenders and get free throws. You laugh at guys like Westbrook and Rose, but they get their teams 10 freebie points a game simply by barreling into retreating defenders.

The Lakers sat back and waited for Rondo to make them pay. Never happened.

Rondo is a non-scorer. That's not a bad thing. He does everything else extremely well (when locked in at least). But you need to complement him with the right players. And one of those is going to have to be a "ball dominant scorer", because if you don't have the guy with the shoe deal, you're not going to win an NBA title. If you want to watch pure team basketball turn on Euroleague or NCAA hoops.

[Pacino62]

Really dislike trading the 2014 BOS pick. Batum is a very good player, but is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Since Rondo isn't a shooter, and Batum is more of a spot up guy, you are going to need to acquire an elite 1st option on offense, or a decent first option and a 2nd option (Olynyk?), to have a championship team. That move pins our title chances on free agency basically.

If the pick involved is protected, then its another matter.

No snark intended but I am not following.

Maybe the disconnect is the 1st-2nd option? What, exactly, does a 1st option do? Collapse the defense, draw double-teams and find the open man for convertible baskets? Rondo is one of the better players in the league at doing that. His presence allows his teammates to play at greater efficiency shooting the ball. That Dork Rivers played the hand of a loser's gambit was on him. One of the most glaring weaknesses on offense of the Dork Rivers-era Celtics was turnovers. Rivers' insistence on running Ray off of picks, taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and putting him off the ball and essentially disabling two positions on the floor offensively with his scheme almost cost this team a championship. As the team aged and pieces moved, the pace got slower and slower.

Save for a three month stretch, Rondo has never been in a situation where players that accented his game have consistently been on the court with him. The style of play was tailored for others players and not him. If anything, a 4-time all-star has played the majority of his career in a sub-optimal role for his skill-set.

Or are you referring to players who can create in isolation? How is it any different than a pick-and-roll? Or ball/player movement? Even if Rondo's own turnovers are high, the majority of his teammates will be highly efficient (unless they try to stranglehold the offense like 2011-13 Paul Pierce.)

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to do these two deals, the net is that they would be down two, possibly three, 1st RD''ers. Each of those three 1sts are likely non-lottery picks. They would still have 6 (or 7) first rounders over the next five seasons, barring further moves. None of those picks, save possibly the 2017 Brooklyn swap and 2018 Brooklyn pick, looks to be anywhere near the lottery if they were to go down the path I laid out above. I am not advocating giving those Brooklyn picks up. Bogans would either fall off at the end of the year or could be used in a trade before the start of next season. They would be over the cap so free agency in the immediate future wouldn't really be an option, save for by exception. They could still acquire players via trade.

If they do nothing, they have 9 first rd picks in the next five years. If they trade Humphries, they have guaranteed salary likely for at least next season. If they allow Bogans, Crawford and Humphries to expire, once renounced, factoring in raises, cap-holds and Bradley's likely extension, they will be over the cap and the only option to add players will be by trade or exception.

I would rather be competing and retain flexibility to add a major piece if it shakes loose than floundering in the lottery waiting for a major piece to shake loose and then find out he doesn't want to come here because it's a desperate situation, despite having a top-10 pick in the last two drafts.

Maybe I don't view basketball through the lens of ball-dominant scorers who can't effectively set-up teammates being the focus of the offense. Whether it is a point-guard, ball-dominant wing or point-forward, you have to have playmakers. The issue is when the playmaking is not actual playmaking but just happenstance as a by-product of having the ball so much <cough>Derrick Rose<cough>Russell Westbrook<cough>.

It's funny Pogue. It's no secret that you know your stuff, but after that post I see the value in a great basketball mind and a casual poster and die hard fan like myself. When I read your initial trades, I asked myself if you had lost your mind. Then, after reading through the posts that followed, you sold me. It makes perfect sense. I do think our net result lacks size at the PF position. Would love to see a way to include Hickson in the Denver deal. However, they appear to be real high on him.

[24istheLAW]

Hey Pogue Mahone check this out



So that's before extending Avery Bradley.

I do agree that this team would be awesome to watch, and fun to root for. I just don't see the flexibility you describe in it.... still missing a scorer. If Rondo improves his FT shooting I'll change my mind. But there's no slashing/scoring presence, for when the going gets tough and every basket is a challenge. And I don't see how you add that piece given the salary situation. It is a fun team to imagine though. Run all day, and absurd perimeter defense.

EDIT: I forgot to account for Courtney Lee

[UGA Hayes]

Really dislike trading the 2014 BOS pick. Batum is a very good player, but is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Since Rondo isn't a shooter, and Batum is more of a spot up guy, you are going to need to acquire an elite 1st option on offense, or a decent first option and a 2nd option (Olynyk?), to have a championship team. That move pins our title chances on free agency basically.

If the pick involved is protected, then its another matter.

No snark intended but I am not following.

Maybe the disconnect is the 1st-2nd option? What, exactly, does a 1st option do? Collapse the defense, draw double-teams and find the open man for convertible baskets? Rondo is one of the better players in the league at doing that. His presence allows his teammates to play at greater efficiency shooting the ball. That Dork Rivers played the hand of a loser's gambit was on him. One of the most glaring weaknesses on offense of the Dork Rivers-era Celtics was turnovers. Rivers' insistence on running Ray off of picks, taking the ball out of Rondo's hands and putting him off the ball and essentially disabling two positions on the floor offensively with his scheme almost cost this team a championship. As the team aged and pieces moved, the pace got slower and slower.

Save for a three month stretch, Rondo has never been in a situation where players that accented his game have consistently been on the court with him. The style of play was tailored for others players and not him. If anything, a 4-time all-star has played the majority of his career in a sub-optimal role for his skill-set.

Or are you referring to players who can create in isolation? How is it any different than a pick-and-roll? Or ball/player movement? Even if Rondo's own turnovers are high, the majority of his teammates will be highly efficient (unless they try to stranglehold the offense like 2011-13 Paul Pierce.)

Hypothetically speaking, if they were to do these two deals, the net is that they would be down two, possibly three, 1st RD''ers. Each of those three 1sts are likely non-lottery picks. They would still have 6 (or 7) first rounders over the next five seasons, barring further moves. None of those picks, save possibly the 2017 Brooklyn swap and 2018 Brooklyn pick, looks to be anywhere near the lottery if they were to go down the path I laid out above. I am not advocating giving those Brooklyn picks up. Bogans would either fall off at the end of the year or could be used in a trade before the start of next season. They would be over the cap so free agency in the immediate future wouldn't really be an option, save for by exception. They could still acquire players via trade.

If they do nothing, they have 9 first rd picks in the next five years. If they trade Humphries, they have guaranteed salary likely for at least next season. If they allow Bogans, Crawford and Humphries to expire, once renounced, factoring in raises, cap-holds and Bradley's likely extension, they will be over the cap and the only option to add players will be by trade or exception.

I would rather be competing and retain flexibility to add a major piece if it shakes loose than floundering in the lottery waiting for a major piece to shake loose and then find out he doesn't want to come here because it's a desperate situation, despite having a top-10 pick in the last two drafts.

Maybe I don't view basketball through the lens of ball-dominant scorers who can't effectively set-up teammates being the focus of the offense. Whether it is a point-guard, ball-dominant wing or point-forward, you have to have playmakers. The issue is when the playmaking is not actual playmaking but just happenstance as a by-product of having the ball so much <cough>Derrick Rose<cough>Russell Westbrook<cough>.

I agree. Even though I think tanking is the way to go a part of me is pretty dissapointed that we aren't going to see off the bat a hard going rondo run the team so that we can get an idea which of the theories about him are right, that is are his detractors or supporters right. Personally I never thought his numbers were bad for a guy who was a fourth option, and that there was always too much attention paid to how much we scored and never enough attention paid to how we scored (i.e no offensive boards, mediocre to weak FT attempts, low 3 pt attempts). Thats not to say Rondo didn't contribute to that but I felt people largely ignored that KG , our 5 position, and our bench were hurting us as much offensively as Rondo ever was. Its pretty funny that we were perenially a top shooting efficiency team while being a bottom offensive team, meanwhile teams like Atlanta and OKC weren't partucularly good at shooting but managed to be top offenses, the former by being offensive rebounding jaggernauts and the latter through FT and 3 pt shooting. It tells me that you ignore those things at a great risk to your offense. People are denigrating our current roster but with Humphries, Sullinger, Wallace and Rondo, we preject to be a potentially dynomite rebounding team. If we could get some 3 point shooting from the 2 and 3 position, and Olynk turns out to be the scorer we think he is it wouldn't shock me to find out we are a top 10 offense (still think we suck overall b/c of frontcourt defense though).

[zronv7]

Seems like the Jazz and Hayward are far apart in terms on a contract extension, maybe they would be willing to trade him? Give them Jeff Green and a pick or two, throw in Brooks, or Crawford, or even both.