Horford still waiting on big-man help

[Jamaaliver]

That latter part is a bonus he wouldn't have with Asik, teams aren't exactly going to be throwing their better frontcourt defender at Asik simply because he's tall. Heck, you'd wonder if they'd have any defender on him outside of boxing out after a shot went up and in case you haven't noticed, there are no Derrick Roses or James Hardens on this team to make up the scoring.

Not that I'm advocating Asik specifically, but his stats are startlingly similar or even better than two recent teams that made runs to the NBA Finals:

Asik's production exceeds Tiago Splitter's from lasts eason when SAS ran to the Finals.
Asik's production MASSIVELY exceeds Kendrick Perkins' production for OKC when they went to the Finals and Perkins' production when Boston won the title. His post defense and rebounding were integral in each of those teams deep playoff runs.

Looking all the way back to 2011 to the team that won it all, Omer Asik's recent production is almost identical to Tyson Chandler's production in the season Dallas won the championship.

My point is that crisp offensive execution, ball movement, outside shooting and heady guard play can compensate offensively for limited defensive players. Particularly limited BIGs who can score enough on putbacks, alley oops and garbage buckets to keep their defenders honest and justify being on the court.

ALL great teams feature heavy minutes of defensive big men with limited offensive potential.

[MaceCase]

Horford has missed a total of 81 regular season games out of a possible 476 over the entire 6 years of his career. 55 of those missed games came in only one single season where he sustained a freak injury. We can theorize that he MAY sustain more injury as a C but the fact is he actually hasn't and there is no need for anyone to be playing sideline doctor making their own determinations of when he was 100% or not.

Elton Brand is on the roster......Elton Brand is on the roster.......Elton Brand is on the roster.

Al has never played half of his games at PF under Larry Drew....He's played 18% & 23% of available PF minutes under Drew so individual instances being mentioned is really a puff of smoke or better yet, coach speak. Never fall for coach speak especially when you are in a position to measure their actions.......not their words.

Asik is a vastly inferior offensive player to the likes of Splitter and Chandler, these are guys that have led the league in a slew of offensive metrics and then Perkins quite frankly is one of the worst players in the league period. The comparison is inept, further so by stating "crisp offensive execution, ball movement, outside shooting and heady guard play can compensate offensively for limited defensive players" ........that and having Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Harden, Durant, Westbrook, and Dirk on your team. Things are just a little different though when you are relying on Jeff Teague, Kyle Korver, Demarre Carroll and Al Horford.

[MaceCase]

Additionally on the topic of durability, perhaps it would benefit Al to not be amongst the league leaders in minutes per game (13th overall). By my count, LaMarcus Aldridge was the only other bigman to average 37 minutes per game and the difference amongst starting Centers is much more stark. Amongst Centers only Joakim Noah was close in MPG to Al while the rest all comfortably fall between 25-33 mpg.

Maybe it's not banging against guys 30lbs heavier, perhaps it's banging against guys 30lbs heavier while you're tired and they are fresh.

[dorkestra]

From the Sixers, would you guys have any interest in a deal based around Jared Cunningham + Filler for Spencer Hawes?

[MaceCase]

From the Sixers, would you guys have any interest in a deal based around Jared Cunningham + Filler for Spencer Hawes?

If that's all it took to get him then I don't see why we'd say no but I doubt that he's sexy enough to appease the Horford clan.

[Jamaaliver]

Maybe it's not banging against guys 30lbs heavier, perhaps it's banging against guys 30lbs heavier while you're tired and they are fresh.

Absolutely agree with you here. Horford and Zaza weren't both healthy at the same time for the last year and a half.

Collins and Johan were extremely subpar replacements. AL and Zaza were each forced to carry a much heavier burden in the other's absence.

Elton Brand is on the roster......Elton Brand is on the roster.......Elton Brand is on the roster.

Elton Brand is a 34 year old, backup PF. Not sure I'd depend on him at any time this season to play [b]extended[b] minutes as Center. Especially since undersized Paul Millsap is ALREADY injured also.

Al has never played half of his games at PF under Larry Drew....He's played 18% & 23% of available PF minutes under Drew so individual instances being mentioned is really a puff of smoke or better yet, coach speak. Never fall for coach speak especially when you are in a position to measure their actions.......not their words.

I was going off of research from Jeff Schwartz of AJC. Admittedly it was from Drew's first season as Head Coach, but that was the only season in whuch AL and Zaza were healthy for the entire year.

Asik is a vastly inferior offensive player to the likes of Splitter and Chandler, these are guys that have led the league in a slew of offensive metrics and then Perkins quite frankly is one of the worst players in the league period.

Chandler is vastly superior to Asik offensively? Ummm, Okay. The truth is, acquiring a big strong post defender is a necessity to be elite. Obviously, we need to improve the quality of offensive players around them as well. Why not acquire an Asik and then pursue Luol Deng, Danny Granger or Carmelo Next offseason, simply plugging a top scoring wing next to an already finished frontcourt. Seems like it'd be easier to attract a top free agent if we already have a set lineup to plug them into. As opposed to telling them to trust D Ferry.

What's the point of shortening AL's career (he's already injured by the way) just so we can be a .500 team every year? It'd be different if we were an elite, championship contender with him at the 5.

Seems myopic to piss off your best player, further expose him to continue risk of fatigue/injury for pretty much no benefit at all. (6th seed as best scenario, lottery as worst scenario.)

[MaceCase]

Ferry has addressed big man depth, in addition to Al and Millsap he has added Ayon, Brand, an Antic to go along with a 2nd year player in Scott Whom he drafted.

Elton Brand is a Center at this point of his career and has been for some time to the point that he's played predominantly at that spot for the last few seasons. You're problem is that you think basketball is played with the top of your head rather than recognizing that Brand has superior length, reach, girth and defensive presence than a majority of these 7 footers that you are lauding over. He even blocks shots to a higher degree than Josh did and almost twice as much as Asik. I would be more than fine with 20 minutes of him per night as part of a deep rotation.

In Drew's first season Al saw 23% of the team's available minutes at PF, with a healthy Zaza. Do you follow this team? Your own memory should beat out any quote.

Yes Chandler is superior offensively, he doesn't have stone hands like Asik and his mobility and explosiveness in the pick and roll has made him one of the best if not the best finishers in the NBA.

There is a huge problem with trying to build a team without an engine. You don't build a pickup truck first and then try to insert the engine of a Ferrari. That's not bound to work and I don't see how that's bound to attract more free agents especially when it doesn't increase the team above being a said .500 win team.

I don't see Al's career being shortened. That is being overly dramatic especially when it seems as though hes actually getting stronger rather than weaker at C. His hamstring issue apparently flared up when, dun dun dun, he was playing PF against the Pacers. He missed a preseason game, big whoop, he's been at practice since.

I don't care about pissing off diva's. He's under contract for 3 whole seasons and he hasn't exactly transformed the Hawks like Lebron has to think that he's the greatest thing that will ever happen to the franchise. So far he hasn't distinguished himself from Josh, Joe, Smitty and Deke and is not approaching Nique. If he doesn't see a future with this franchise then I'm sure he'll be moved for some valuable assets so again, I don't know where this hostage mentality and appease him at all costs thinking is coming from.

[theatlfan]

Elton Brand is a Center at this point of his career and has been for some time to the point that he's played predominantly at that spot for the last few seasons. You're problem is that you think basketball is played with the top of your head rather than recognizing that Brand has superior length, reach, girth and defensive presence than a majority of these 7 footers that you are lauding over. He even blocks shots to a higher degree than Josh did and almost twice as much as Asik. I would be more than fine with 20 minutes of him per night as part of a deep rotation.

Let me add on to this point. Some Standing Reach measurements from past NBA Pre-Draft combines:
9'1.5": Stephen Adams, Andre Drummond, Enes Kanter, Tiago Splitter
9'2": Elton Brand, Nerlens Noel, Fab Melo, Jason Collins, Tyson Chandler, Marcin Gortat
9'2.5": Chris Kaman, Emeka Okafor, Andrew Bogut

Now, these examples are most certainly cherry-picked and these numbers can change especially for the younger kids, although this is far from guaranteed (e.g., Nogueira's standing reach was measured @ 9'2.63" in '11, but in '13 it was 9'6" which is one of the highest in DX's spreadsheet; OTOH, Noel's measurements stayed within an inch in all phases as he has four entries between '11 and '13). Still, calling Brand a PF is a misnomer. He measures in with many guys that are most certainly C's and most all of them aren't known for as guys who would be able to use their athleticism to overcome the disadvantage in size.

[minimus]

I'd trade Paul Millsap + fillers for Faried & Mozgov. This trade will give Atlanta versatility, two different lineups:
1) run-n-gun Horford-Faried -Korver+Jenkins+Teague
2) big guys Mozgov-Horford-Korver-Jenkins+Teague

Denver will use Millsap as solid, reliable PF, who can co-exist with young bigmen (McGee, Hickson, Arthur) if team doesn't run

[Yungsta404]

I'd trade Paul Millsap + fillers for Faried & Mozgov. This trade will give Atlanta versatility, two different lineups:
1) run-n-gun Horford-Faried -Korver+Jenkins+Teague
2) big guys Mozgov-Horford-Korver-Jenkins+Teague

Denver will use Millsap as solid, reliable PF, who can co-exist with young bigmen (McGee, Hickson, Arthur) if team doesn't run

the nuggets are loaded with fowards. it makes little sense to trade 1 undersized pf for another.

[Jamaaliver]

Yes Chandler is superior offensively, he doesn't have stone hands like Asik and his mobility and explosiveness in the pick and roll has made him one of the best if not the best finishers in the NBA.

I don't see Al's career being shortened. That is being overly dramatic especially when it seems as though hes actually getting stronger rather than weaker at C. His hamstring issue apparently flared up when, dun dun dun, he was playing PF against the Pacers. He missed a preseason game, big whoop, he's been at practice since.

I don't care about pissing off diva's.

Just to be sure I have this correct:

1. You are calling AL Horford a diva?

2. You're calling Chandler superior offensively even though his best scoring season in 12+ season was at 11 ppg?
Despite the fact that they both currently avg the same number of ppg?

3. Consider acquiring D-Level talent in Ayon & Antic adequately shoring up frontcourt depth?

4. Don't believe a Hamstring injury will effect an undersized Center as he attempts to use speed and agility to outrun larger Centers?


Ummm...okay. If you say so.

[MaceCase]

1) Most players who don't shut up about what they want regardless of the environment around them would in most cases be considered a diva.

2) Sure, let PPG be the only measure. Exclude, FG%, TS%, Offensive Rating, Offensive Win shares, plus-minus etc. etc. etc. We'll just be deliberately obtuse on this one.

3) Perhaps you should consider this, Antic was a much more accomplished player in Europe and Ayon has performed better on a per-minute and advanced statistical level than the flavor of the week, Omer Asik. Maybe give them the chance and they can grow to become just as overrated too. Oh, and don't forget Elton Brand, don't forget Elton Brand, don't forget Elton Brand. Mike Scott hasn't looked bad either with a full season under his belt.

4) I don't believe that Al had a serious injury at all.......thus why he is not listed on any reports and has fully practiced ever since he decided he didn't want to take a trip out for a preseason game. Confirmation bias much?

Yea, I indeed say so.

[azuresou1]

1. I don't particularly care much what Al Horford wants. Him being happy is a plus. I'm not changing my team around to cater to his whims if it doesn't benefit the team.

2) Tyson Chandler s***s all over Asik offensively, and it isn't close. Chandler can catch, he can finish things other than dunks, sets better screens, and doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much.

3) Our frontcourt DEPTH is not bad. It's really not.

If we can obtain a young stud center, great. Let's do it. If not, it's not the end of the world. Ultimately, at the end of the day, TALENT is what wins games.

[Jamaaliver]

Tyson Chandler s***s all over Asik offensively, and it isn't close. Chandler can catch, he can finish things other than dunks, sets better screens, and doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much.

Sure, let PPG be the only measure. Exclude, FG%, TS%, Offensive Rating, Offensive Win shares, plus-minus etc. etc. etc. We'll just be deliberately obtuse on this one.

No. Absolutely not. This is one of those instances where advanced stats do not tell the entire story.
Tyson Chandler is extremely limited offensively. He scores on alley-oops, Pick-and-Rolls and offensive rebounds. That's it. Every scouting report on his teams for years have mentioned that his teams offensively play 4 on 5 because he has absolutely offensive skillset.

The advanced stats would have us believe Tyson Chandler is one of the most elite, efficient scoring big men in the league today. But that just ain't the case. His entire offensive reprtoire consists of:

1. being tall.
2. standing next to the basket.

He literally avg around 6 shots a game because his teammates/coaches know he cannot score buckets on his own.

[Jamaaliver]

3) Perhaps you should consider this, Antic was a much more accomplished player in Europe and Ayon has performed better on a per-minute and advanced statistical level than the flavor of the week, Omer Asik. Maybe give them the chance and they can grow to become just as overrated too. Oh, and don't forget Elton Brand, don't forget Elton Brand, don't forget Elton Brand. Mike Scott hasn't looked bad either with a full season under his belt.

4) I don't believe that Al had a serious injury at all.......thus why he is not listed on any reports and has fully practiced ever since he decided he didn't want to take a trip out for a preseason game. Confirmation bias much?

Yea, I indeed say so.

AL has played injured quite a bit over the last 16 months.

ALOT. He plays through it without complaining.

We

3) Our frontcourt DEPTH is not bad. It's really not.

Time will tell. I'm going on record as saying I have deep concerns. Ayon is already hurt. Elton is old. Antic is a three point specialist.
Time will tell.

[MaceCase]

Tyson Chandler s***s all over Asik offensively, and it isn't close. Chandler can catch, he can finish things other than dunks, sets better screens, and doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much.

Sure, let PPG be the only measure. Exclude, FG%, TS%, Offensive Rating, Offensive Win shares, plus-minus etc. etc. etc. We'll just be deliberately obtuse on this one.

No. Absolutely not. This is one of those instances where advanced stats do not tell the entire story.
Tyson Chandler is extremely limited offensively. He scores on alley-oops, Pick-and-Rolls and offensive rebounds. That's it. Every scouting report on his teams for years have mentioned that his teams offensively play 4 on 5 because he has absolutely offensive skillset.

The advanced stats would have us believe Tyson Chandler is one of the most elite, efficient scoring big men in the league today. But that just ain't the case. His entire offensive reprtoire consists of:

1. being tall.
2. standing next to the basket.

He literally avg around 6 shots a game because his teammates/coaches know he cannot score buckets on his own.

So........the fact that he's tremendously better at doing those specific things than Asik......somehow makes your point now that he's not offensively better than Asik. Try to reel yourself back into to reality, chief. What the stats show is that Chandler performs very efficiently for his limited role whereas Asik does not, stop inventing arguments much like you like to invent medical reports for Al.

[azuresou1]

Jamaal, do you want to list a single thing Asik does better than Tyson Chandler offensively?

[Jamaaliver]

Jamaal, do you want to list a single thing Asik does better than Tyson Chandler offensively?

Nothing. That's the point. They are both capable of standing next to the basket and getting putbacks or inside dishes for easy dunks.

It's why Asik's first full season as a starter resulted in pretty much identical production to Tyson's recent seasons as starter.

If you want to say Chandler is more explosive than Asik and dunks it harder, I'll give you that. But both are equally inept at creating their own shots. Neither has a post game, face up game or a jumpshot.

Be prepared, from what I've seen/read of Lucas, he is pretty much the same way. Tall and able to dunk.

So........the fact that he's tremendously better at doing those specific things than Asik

Tremendously better? At standing next to the basket? Tremendously? Even though they avg the same number of points on the same number of attempts?

Can one 10 ppg scorer be TREMENDOUSLY better than another 10 ppg scorer?

We're literally divided because Chandler shoots 9% points better on his dunks? Because he shoots 10% better on his Free Throws?

They are literally identical players. Same weaknesses. Same strengths.

[azuresou1]

I think you're underestimating just how big that edge is. The efficiency difference between Chandler and Asik (.113 TS%) is equivalent to the difference between Kyle Korver and Nick Young/Marshon Brooks. Then consider that Asik turns it over 30% more...

A strong similarity in playstyle doesn't mean that the two are equally as good.

[MaceCase]

Josh was just a mere 9 percentage points away from being one of the best shooters in the league. I don't know why we railed on him so much for taking jumpers.