GT: Brooklyn Nets @ Washington Wizards 11/8/13 (7PM)

[Nivek]

And in game one Gortat did not start having not played a single minute
with the Wizards in a real or pre-season game. Book may not be the reason
we were 0-3, but he also shouldn't start complaining about not playing when
we won both games he didn't play.

Has Book complained about not playing? Hadn't heard or read that.

If I recall correctly, Booker dislocated a finger.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Late to chime in, but wow what a great game! One of the best games I can remember seeing for quite a while, almost had a playoff feel with the intensity and physicality. Glad they could pull it out! Some general unorganized thoughts...

That dunk by Beal was sick! Not sure if I realized he had that in him. They showed a shot of Kidd and Frank talking right after and they had a look seemed to be saying something along those lines to each other like man he's a good player.

Wall was played with determination on the defensive end and I loved to see that!

That was the best game Nene has played this year, and possibly since he's been a Wizard. I was beginning to write him off as the weak link in our starting 5, but now maybe not. Seeing him take it to KG was a major confidence boost to the team's mindset IMO and had a domino effect on the game.

Watching Livingston was frustrating. He looked good out there. I've been comparing Maynor to Price, completely forgetting we had Livingston last season and just let him go for some unknowable reason. We had a 2nd chance at him after letting him go before, and somehow did it again! Makes no sense. I'd rather of kept him as our backup instead of going out and signing Maynor.

The combo of Nene and Gortat inside is looking good, and should only get better as they get accustomed to each other. Wall and Beal are gelling and finding their games as well. That was a good win vs a good team, very encouraging. Definitely feel a lot better about this team than a week ago!

On a side note, noticed Newman and Cassell have both been dressing sharper lately on the sidelines.

When Nene is healthy and on his game, he is a very underrated player. He made a great pass to Ariza. His tip in saved the game. He had three consecutive and-one attempts with KG helpless trying to stop him. Super, I agree with you. I can't recall him being better as a Wizard. The man definitely knows how to play. He and Gortat are good together, already, and only going to get better -- if Nene can stay healthy. (Reasonably healthy, any way).

Livingston sure would be ideal He's the best of Maynor as a passer and has Temple's size, with probably more quickness and better scoring ability. On the Brooklyn board, at least one or two of their posters prefer Livingston running the Nets over D-Will. They are probably complaining even more after today's Nets loss against the Pacers.

I feel better about the team, too, because the bench is better than its shown so far. The starters are beginning to gel as a unit. I just hope Wall's back gets better and they stay healthy. I think Gortat's got a bit more game than he's shown so far. His offense is going to open driving lanes for Wall, Beal, and Ariza/Webster. Gortat also works well with Harrington.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

And I forgot ... Blatche missing those free throws was so great! That was the icing on the cake! Absolutely priceless!

[barelyawake]

What is interesting to me is that Harrington until recently has been a pretty good defensive rebounder (at least historically). In the last couple of years his DRB% has been close to 20 - why is he suddenly at 10 this year?

If he was rebounding at those rates, he would be the second best on the team to Gortat.

Harrington is obviously a half step slower than he historically has been. However, some observations:

A) I've noticed Harrington's stats are often wrong in terms of assists. He has a few more than recorded. And he's often the smartest big off the bench in terms of team play. Does he occasionally do a "hero ball" play? Yes. And I think that's by design. Who else on our second unit (besides Booker) is going to take the shot when there is no shot? We tried posting Serphin, and that was a disaster. Maynor is obviously too slow to breakdown his man. And we aren't playing Rice. So, who becomes the de facto "go to" guy when defenses clamp down?

B) Although his rebounding is lacking (because of the half step slow), he is often boxing out the best rebounder on the other team (which he does with some regularity) -- allowing for others to board.

Our problem is our lack of a center who can board and defend. I'm wondering if (though not hopeful that) Ves could fill that role.

The above is not an argument against Booker. Both he and Harrington are effectively the same player at this point in Harrington's career. Each bring a little something different, but both need a true defensive center clogging the middle to make-up for what they both lack.

[nate33]

A) I've noticed Harrington's stats are often wrong in terms of assists. He has a few more than recorded. And he's often the smartest big off the bench in terms of team play. Does he occasionally do a "hero ball" play? Yes. And I think that's by design. Who else on our second unit (besides Booker) is going to take the shot when there is no shot? We tried posting Serphin, and that was a disaster. Maynor is obviously too slow to breakdown his man. And we aren't playing Rice. So, who becomes the de facto "go to" guy when defenses clamp down?

Well said, barelyawake.

I'm as big of a stat-guy as anyone on this board, but I do think stats don't tell the whole story in the Harrington/Booker comparison. Booker definitely puts up better numbers, but one must consider Harrington's role and responsibility on the second unit before bashing him too much for his inefficiency. If you put Booker in Harrington's place, I suspect the second unit would play even worse.

tl;dr version: Booker is a better fit alongside the starters (or alongside just a couple of starters), Harrington is better fit when all the starters are out.

[mhd]

Harrington looks like a vet leader out there. He plays with passion. I'm a huge EG basher, but signing Harrington for the min was a good deal.

[hands11]

I think that both Booker and Harrington have a place on the team. Harrington is much more a S4 and plays pretty nicely next to Gortat - especially when he is hitting the 3 - it really spaces the floor.

Booker is a fine rebounder and defender - the problem he has in the rotation is who to play him with. It doesn't work well with him playing with Seraphin. I would argue he isn't a good fit next to Gortat. Maybe with Nene.

But then I would almost rather have Ariza slide over to the S4.

But that is a huey anyway, Witt seems to be setting his rotation and my guess is Booker is on the outside looking in... but you never know with Witt and it is a long season.

Witt has previously talked about how he will put players in and out of
the rotation (obviously he was talking not about starters who play every
game which Booker isn't, he's an emergency starter) in sets of 5-8
games at a stretch. Give them some run over not just 1-2 games and
see what they can do. Book did ok and not so OK as evidenced by
the success of DET and PHL's matchups on Book. It's clear that
Nene should play ahead of him.

Exactly. Just tools in the tool box. Booker is useful in some situation and not in others. Same with AH. Same with Kevin and same with Ves. Randy should not get stuck playing any of them. It should depend on match ups, what the team needs and how they are trying to develop more line ups that compliment each other. Individual stats are nice, but they aren't everything.

Right now, Webster is the only bench player who is inked to get minutes. After that, Maynor and even there, I would use Temple with bigger PG like Livingston.

From there, everyone should get their chance over time. AH is useful when they need to spread the floor and the rotation doesn't allow for Webster and Trevor A out there together. Plus he has more post moves then Trevor A. Plays stronger. Trevor A has a more quickness and way better defense.

From my take, Glen needs to get out there. I can see him being very useful given what this team needs from the bench. He would mix in well with lots of lineups.

Given what they played against BRK, Beals minutes could get trimmed back with Webster getting more and they need to find some for Glen.

AH, Kevin, Ves and Booker - they all should be used in different situations cuz they all bring something different. Right now, I would choose between AH and Kevin on who I pair with Nene or Gortat if the PF isn't Trevor A. After that, I would go Ves before Booker so we can get a look at what he and Gortat or he and Nene look like. I think we know what we have in Booker already.

Wall, Beal, Trevor A or Webster, Ves and Nene or Gortat is what I want to see. Even with Maynor combos

Again, as Wall learns to do more pick and roll with Gortat, he can use that same skill to work with Ves and I think Ves might get fired up to play with Gortat who I think he would bound with out there. Plus, I want to see if his new focus on rebounding carries over. He lead the team in rebounding in the preseason and did well in Euro ball with it. Two long bigs up front cleaning the boards wouldn't suck.

First, I would try Ves with Gortat. I think Nene with his passing works better with a S4 be it AH or Trevor A though Nene likes help rebounding and banging with the other teams post players.

I haven't totally given up on Ves. Actually, I think this is the best the roster has looked for him to fit in. Two passing PGs, shooters and Nene and Gortat for him to pair with. Gortat is a better fit than Okafor for Ves because he has more offensive skills, range and he is another big white Eastern Block dude he can identify with. Plus he put in a good offseason and he has his trainer here to keep working on skills.

[tontoz]

Watching Livingston was frustrating. He looked good out there. I've been comparing Maynor to Price, completely forgetting we had Livingston last season and just let him go for some unknowable reason. We had a 2nd chance at him after letting him go before, and somehow did it again! Makes no sense. I'd rather of kept him as our backup instead of going out and signing Maynor.

Livingston was horrible with us last year. He couldn't score to save his life. In 19 minutes per game he averaged 3.7 ppg shooting 36.4%.

And then he badmouthed the team after he left. F*** him.

[The Consiglieri]

yep, although I'm always one to pick up and swing a cudgel at the team, Livingston was tremendous in the spring of '10, and last year, being reunited wasn't feeling very good at all. Crappy performance.

As for bad mouthing the team, i'm always of two minds about that, on the one hand, it's weak, and poor form, otoh, it's the wizards.

And as for Rice Jr, if we have no interest in playing him, he should go down to the D League. The bench is pointless. I'll be keeping a close eye on his non-minutes for the next few weeks, I expect rooks to get very little run when they're second rounders, but this strikes me as a bit absurd.

[hands11]

Late to chime in, but wow what a great game! One of the best games I can remember seeing for quite a while, almost had a playoff feel with the intensity and physicality. Glad they could pull it out! Some general unorganized thoughts...

That dunk by Beal was sick! Not sure if I realized he had that in him. They showed a shot of Kidd and Frank talking right after and they had a look seemed to be saying something along those lines to each other like man he's a good player.

Wall was played with determination on the defensive end and I loved to see that!

That was the best game Nene has played this year, and possibly since he's been a Wizard. I was beginning to write him off as the weak link in our starting 5, but now maybe not. Seeing him take it to KG was a major confidence boost to the team's mindset IMO and had a domino effect on the game.

Watching Livingston was frustrating. He looked good out there. I've been comparing Maynor to Price, completely forgetting we had Livingston last season and just let him go for some unknowable reason. We had a 2nd chance at him after letting him go before, and somehow did it again! Makes no sense. I'd rather of kept him as our backup instead of going out and signing Maynor.

The combo of Nene and Gortat inside is looking good, and should only get better as they get accustomed to each other. Wall and Beal are gelling and finding their games as well. That was a good win vs a good team, very encouraging. Definitely feel a lot better about this team than a week ago!

On a side note, noticed Newman and Cassell have both been dressing sharper lately on the sidelines.

The Revolving Door of PGs and the Legend of Crawford.

Livingston is who I wanted them to add in that offseason as a vet to help back up behind Wall, but he was in another preseason camp and released late after the Wizards already picked up Price and Pargo in the epic Price, Pargo, Mack battle to the bottom.

Livingston sat around for a few weeks as the Wiz did nothing. Eventually they shipped off Pargo. So I was happy when they picked him up. But it didn't work out and they let him go.

Livingston is a decent utility back up PG that can run an offense. No 3 ball to speak of. Could have worked maybe as a PG off the bench with Wall starting and a scorer like Crawford as an option off the bench who could also play PG, but it just didn't gel quick enough, so they picked up Mack one short contract until Wall returned and they started winning. Price returned. Crawford got some starts at PG, but Randy never stuck with it. Crawford sat a few games once Wall returned because he was toughing out an ankle injury he had been playing on ( sucking it up for the team ). Then temple was introduced after Mack was let go.

Crawford returned and they continued to win which started when Wall returned off the bench. They went 3-2. Wall moved into the starting line up and they went 2-0 with Crawford getting minutes off the bench. Then Beal went down after just two games of him and Wall starting 2-0. It was that kind of year.

Randy put Temple in at starting SG to play with Wall and they went 0-4 over a 1 home 3 away stretch. Crawford was now paired up with AJ Price in the 2nd unit and he couldn't really get his swag going so they turned to more Webster for two games, then Beal returned and Crawford started getting CD-DNPs. 4 games later, he was shipped off for a old stale cheeseburger.

Last two loses of Crawford with DNPs is part of the legend.

at DET Washington lead through 3, then went got outscored 17-31
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278501

vs TOR Lost 88-96. Price and Wall both laid turds. Wall 1-12 and 7 turnovers. Price 2-7 and 0-3
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400278509

I think both games the board was outragged they didn't play any Crawford and the fans in the booth had the same feeling. It was this last game in a Wiz uni that the Wizards fans chanted for him and he throw them his jersey. Pure awesome. That was the end of Crawford as a Wizard.

I think them turning to Temple pissed Crawford off to no end. Specially after Randy gave the starting node to so many players he felt where less players than he was. And how he played when paired with Wall with both coming off the bench. And how he always showed up to play even when they totally sucked. And his interviews were always about winning and his love of the game. And how he sucked it up through the ankle injury.

Wizards were 4-28 before Wall returned and went 7-3 after that. They were 11-32 when Beal went down Jan 28 then went on an 0-4 run. I think at that point, Crawford looked to crapped in someone shoes but Dray had been shipped off already. So he ended it with a jersey toss to his fans.

The Crawford story must be preserved and passed on from generation to generation... That was pretty awesome when the fans called for him and then he tossed the jersey after a CD-DNP. I think he was just emotional and acting in the moment, but he may as well have flipped off Randy right in front of everyone. Same effect. I simple hand wave and he might have stuck around. But I think he was done here.

I think I might have to copy this into the Crawford thread for prosperity.

[hands11]

Late to chime in, but wow what a great game! One of the best games I can remember seeing for quite a while, almost had a playoff feel with the intensity and physicality. Glad they could pull it out! Some general unorganized thoughts...

That dunk by Beal was sick! Not sure if I realized he had that in him. They showed a shot of Kidd and Frank talking right after and they had a look seemed to be saying something along those lines to each other like man he's a good player.

Wall was played with determination on the defensive end and I loved to see that!

That was the best game Nene has played this year, and possibly since he's been a Wizard. I was beginning to write him off as the weak link in our starting 5, but now maybe not. Seeing him take it to KG was a major confidence boost to the team's mindset IMO and had a domino effect on the game.

Watching Livingston was frustrating. He looked good out there. I've been comparing Maynor to Price, completely forgetting we had Livingston last season and just let him go for some unknowable reason. We had a 2nd chance at him after letting him go before, and somehow did it again! Makes no sense. I'd rather of kept him as our backup instead of going out and signing Maynor.

The combo of Nene and Gortat inside is looking good, and should only get better as they get accustomed to each other. Wall and Beal are gelling and finding their games as well. That was a good win vs a good team, very encouraging. Definitely feel a lot better about this team than a week ago!

On a side note, noticed Newman and Cassell have both been dressing sharper lately on the sidelines.

When Nene is healthy and on his game, he is a very underrated player. He made a great pass to Ariza. His tip in saved the game. He had three consecutive and-one attempts with KG helpless trying to stop him. Super, I agree with you. I can't recall him being better as a Wizard. The man definitely knows how to play. He and Gortat are good together, already, and only going to get better -- if Nene can stay healthy. (Reasonably healthy, any way).

Livingston sure would be ideal He's the best of Maynor as a passer and has Temple's size, with probably more quickness and better scoring ability. On the Brooklyn board, at least one or two of their posters prefer Livingston running the Nets over D-Will. They are probably complaining even more after today's Nets loss against the Pacers.

I feel better about the team, too, because the bench is better than its shown so far. The starters are beginning to gel as a unit. I just hope Wall's back gets better and they stay healthy. I think Gortat's got a bit more game than he's shown so far. His offense is going to open driving lanes for Wall, Beal, and Ariza/Webster. Gortat also works well with Harrington.

Livingston with the right players around him is a good/decent player. He just isn't good enough to carry a team as a starting PG or even an effective back up if he doesn't have the right players out there with him. But back ups are like that. They are very reliant on who is around them. Except for things like someone who can rebound ( Evans) or someone who can create their own shot ala Nate Robinson.

[hands11]

A) I've noticed Harrington's stats are often wrong in terms of assists. He has a few more than recorded. And he's often the smartest big off the bench in terms of team play. Does he occasionally do a "hero ball" play? Yes. And I think that's by design. Who else on our second unit (besides Booker) is going to take the shot when there is no shot? We tried posting Serphin, and that was a disaster. Maynor is obviously too slow to breakdown his man. And we aren't playing Rice. So, who becomes the de facto "go to" guy when defenses clamp down?

Well said, barelyawake.

I'm as big of a stat-guy as anyone on this board, but I do think stats don't tell the whole story in the Harrington/Booker comparison. Booker definitely puts up better numbers, but one must consider Harrington's role and responsibility on the second unit before bashing him too much for his inefficiency. If you put Booker in Harrington's place, I suspect the second unit would play even worse.

tl;dr version: Booker is a better fit alongside the starters (or alongside just a couple of starters), Harrington is better fit when all the starters are out.

I would tweak that to... AH isn't reliant on other starters as much. I think he could be used well with them as well. But its about match ups. In most instances, Trevor A is the better option.

As for Booker being a better fit with starters. That might be true. But I don't see it so much as who he fits with on the Wizards, as much as who he is out matched by on the other team. Starting him at PF against DET was a bad idea. I don't care who you put him out there with.

Oddly enough, Booker is exactly the kind of player I would put on AH if the other team put AH at the 4.

[dckingsfan]

What is interesting to me is that Harrington until recently has been a pretty good defensive rebounder (at least historically). In the last couple of years his DRB% has been close to 20 - why is he suddenly at 10 this year?

If he was rebounding at those rates, he would be the second best on the team to Gortat.

Harrington is obviously a half step slower than he historically has been.

Good point and one that I hadn't considered - that he has lost a step or two - I wonder if he has lost some vertical explosion as well?

I also wonder if he will get some of that back as he plays himself into shape?