Washington Wizards @ OKC Thunder GT 11/10/13 (7 PM)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm not seeing the same things as reasons to be concerned about Wall. My concern with him is more about his efficiency and decision-making. I'd like to see him continue reducing turnovers, to play with a better sense of pace, and to shoot the ball better. If Wall fails to become a max-worthy player, it'll be because he doesn't improve his shooting and decision-making, not because he lacks competitiveness or grit.

Seems to me Wall is definitely improving his AST/TO as well as he's improved his 3PT shooting. Every season his WS/48 is increasing, and so is his PER. Nivek, by your criteria I think he's trending upward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... elog/2014/

Last game was abysmal for Wall, efficiency-wise. Just before this last game his PER and WS/48 looked like a linear kind of better, too. One game changed his 6 game season stats a lot. However, 4 of his 6 games he's been real sharp. I think he's getting better but the two losses, one against Philly and yesterday, to me come down to competitiveness.

I'm not disagreeing with your point on what can make him a greater player but more the how, if that makes any sense.

[payitforward]

I'm not seeing the same things as reasons to be concerned about Wall. My concern with him is more about his efficiency and decision-making. I'd like to see him continue reducing turnovers, to play with a better sense of pace, and to shoot the ball better. If Wall fails to become a max-worthy player, it'll be because he doesn't improve his shooting and decision-making, not because he lacks competitiveness or grit.

This seems so utterly obvious; I don't understand why it doesn't simply jump out at anyone who watches him play and looks at his numbers.

And the more he improves his shooting, the less of a problem the turnovers are (tho I suppose this is true of anyone...). For that matter, he *has* improved on turnovers this year.

Of course, we are still working with a small sample -- but Wall is also not getting to the line as much and shooting a lower % than in the past when there. Yet his TS% is holding steady because of his 3pt%. Holding steady -- but not an elite level for a PG.

So there you are: in short... it's still a small sample!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

pif, where I think you, Nivek, and I agree is Wall isn't elite.

Nivek and I agreed the Wizards should have waited to give the max deal. Wall was a RFA and they had the right of first refusal. They risked offending Wall or making him disgruntled, but they still held his rights.

I sort of caved on the signing because the gesture seemed to legitimize the Wizards. I think Wall's a good, hard, hard, hardworking kid. I was happy for him and think the owner is right to trust Wall's character and work ethic. But in the back of my mind there are dudes like MCW or perhaps Marcus Smart or maybe a Harrison twin or a Jahii Carson who may be leaders who help teams win and who attract quality FAs. Wall might be the guy, but I just would have made him wait.

That said, other owners didn't make Favors or Cousins wait. OTOH, you see Evan Turner putting up SICK numbers now, and he was part of the same draft class. Philly didn't have to appease him with any kind of contract to get the guy to maximize his potential.

(In fairness, Turner is almost 2 years older than John Wall. Wall COULD be a superstar in 2 years. If he plays like he did last March all the time, that guy IS a superstar. I just would have made him wait.

[DCZards]

I don't know why anyone would be surprised that Wall isn't playing like a "max" player...yet...or that he still plays poorly at times. I don't think anyone believed that Wall was a max player when he was signed to a max contract. But many of us believed (and still do) that John has the potential to become worthy of a max contract. It's crazy, imo, to expect Wall to suddenly play at an elite level simply because he'll soon be getting paid the max. Give it time folks.

[DCZards]

Agree -- getting to the playoffs is only a milestone if it leads you further along the road to something farther to reach. For most teams, that's not what it is. And, given that we gave up a future asset to go all in for this so-called milestone, you can think of Ernie/Ted's moves to get there as a millstone not a milestone.

payit, do you see the pick (which I understand will be 12 or higher) that the Zards gave up for Gortat as the "future asset" that could put the Zards over the top...or might a resigned Gortat be worth far more than that pick would have been?

edit to add: And wouldn't making the playoffs improve the Zards appeal with quality free agents?

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Finally summoned up the stomach to post after that gut-punch of a game last night. I was so damn proud of the way the team played that I couldn't bare to come into this forum and read all the hyper-negative comments about the team and particular players. And so I digress...I don't want to to play the moral victory card, to hell with that, I wanted to be 3-3 and say we got our first win in OKC. But to me, there was a lot more good than bad I saw from last nights game. There's a lot to build on and a lot of things to look forward.

The Good

1. BEAL! As I mentioned in one of the previous game threads many of you were overacting to his luke-warm start, but as I said he'd be fine and he's proving my point right in spades. Beal has the potential to be a hell of a player. Not only can the kid shoot lights out from both the three and the mid-range, but he's improving every day on his ball handling, his passing, and his ability to finish. To top that he plays defense and hits the board. He has the making of a quintessential two-guard with intangibles many players lack.

2. Team played great defensively for large portions of the game against a very good offense. We still have some work on our rotations and REBOUND much better, but I refuse to think this team lost its defensive tenacity from last year with just the loss of Okafor (albeit he was a great defensive anchor). That second quarter was great, we kept them to a record-low for a quarter on their building.

3. We already appear to be a better road team than last team, while the results aren't stellar at 1-3, it appears we are competing much better on the road and are more confident in our ability to win.

4. Nene. Another great outing from the big man, sucks he got ejected, but it can't be reiterated enough of how important he is to this team in terms of example and mentality. I think he deserved his ejection last night (though I don't really mind, I think its good that he got chippy with Mr. Pompous Westbrook) and his absence hurt us big time down the stretch.

5. This team can shoot. Remember how bad we were just two seasons back, we've improved by leaps and bounds in that department; Beal and Webster are major reasons for that.

The Bad

1. Rebounding, rebounding, rebounding. This team needs to get this rebounding issue in order. We don't have to be the best, or even in the top 10, at this point the middle of the pack would be a huge improvement. Whether its our guard chipping in more, us concentrating on securing the rebound before we start to run, or whatever the problem is, we need major improvement. The only two players who seem to have been rebounding at a acceptable rate are Gortat and Ariza. A few things I have notices: (1) we seem to definitely be rushing up court before the rebound is secured, (2)many rebounds are being poked away which leads me to believe we're not being tenacious enough to hold onto defense boards, and (3) our first half rebounding has blown, not so much our second half boarding.

2. The refs hate us, granted they were okay last night.

3. Free throws. As if I even have to state this. And why the hell would Ariza ever shoot a technical with Beal on the floor? What's amazing is the position we were in the game considering all those misses.

4. Wall's layup. Damn it, I don't even want to get into it. On another note, some of you are ridiculous on your hate for him. I though he was a great floor leader last night, just hasn't found a great scoring rhythm this season yet.

[dlts20]

my thing isnt even all about attacking the hoop more. Mine is just about attacking period. Pushing the pace, getting the D back on its heels, and making decisions off of that. If he does that he will automatically drive more but I think his J game would look a ton better strictly because of his mindset and having the D on its heels. If you arent a natural pure shooter then you arent going to shoot a great percentage but just walking around teh court and tossing up a J that you hope goes in. His best game is a Russell Westbrook fast tempo attacking style. Thats when he dominated last year. People have to stop fearing about being under control. His aggression and tempo has nothing to do with that. He's pretty much overcome that aspect and he will still be under control even if he's in attack mode, just like he was in the 2nd half of last year

[wizardry]

We havent seen a Playoff in 9 years. Of course its a milestone. Yet you would think by the way some of these guys talk about our team that weve been in the playoffs on a regular basis. Iam mildly happy we have a somewhat healthy team.

[Jimmy Recard]

We havent seen a Playoff in 9 years. Of course its a milestone. Yet you would think by the way some of these guys talk about our team that weve been in the playoffs on a regular basis. Iam mildly happy we have a somewhat healthy team.

9 years? We made the playoffs in '08.

[Nivek]

Agree -- getting to the playoffs is only a milestone if it leads you further along the road to something farther to reach. For most teams, that's not what it is. And, given that we gave up a future asset to go all in for this so-called milestone, you can think of Ernie/Ted's moves to get there as a millstone not a milestone.

payit, do you see the pick (which I understand will be 12 or higher) that the Zards gave up for Gortat as the "future asset" that could put the Zards over the top...or might a resigned Gortat be worth far more than that pick would have been?

edit to add: And wouldn't making the playoffs improve the Zards appeal with quality free agents?

I wrote about the final point recently at the blog, though maybe not all that well. I'm not entirely convinced that making the playoffs will make the Wizards a more attractive destination, and I'm similarly unconvinced the Wizards will be able to do much in free agency to improve the team.

My reasoning goes something like this -- for the Wizards to sign a free agent, they're going to have to part company with a bunch of players. Most of them don't matter all much, but if the team makes it to the playoffs it'll be because of significant contributions from Gortat and Ariza, and likely solid bench production from Booker. But, to sign a "name brand" free agent, they'll likely have to renounce all three.

What that means is the Wizards won't be ADDING to a group that made the playoffs, they'll be using free agency to REPLACE key contributors. Which means that any improvement they hope to achieve in future years will have to come from the marginal difference between the departed players and the free agents they're able to sign. And player development, of course.

Which leads me back to my thinking on why making the playoffs may not make Washington a more attractive destination for free agents -- because they won't be joining a playoff team. They'll be joining a team that's jettisoning three contributors (including potentially a couple starters) in hopes that the new roster will be better (or at least as good) as the team that made the playoffs the previous year.

I may be over-thinking this.

[Nivek]

We havent seen a Playoff in 9 years. Of course its a milestone. Yet you would think by the way some of these guys talk about our team that weve been in the playoffs on a regular basis. Iam mildly happy we have a somewhat healthy team.

9 years? We made the playoffs in '08.

wizardry was temporarily blind in 2008. Because of that unfortunate...umm...episode with a newt.

Thanks for bringing up the painful past.

Don't worry, wizardry -- we'll get you through this latest bout with PTSD.

Thanks a lot Jimmy Recard.

[hands11]

Big game against Dallas tonight. A win gets up right back in things.

If they lose, they are bottom feeders.

Early jockeying matters for teams trying to establish themselves.

[Hypnotizer]

Big game against Dallas tonight. A win gets up right back in things.

If they lose, they are bottom feeders.

Early jockeying matters for teams trying to establish themselves.

Must be a win, no excuses.

[wizardry]

We havent seen a Playoff in 9 years. Of course its a milestone. Yet you would think by the way some of these guys talk about our team that weve been in the playoffs on a regular basis. Iam mildly happy we have a somewhat healthy team.

9 years? We made the playoffs in '08.

wizardry was temporarily blind in 2008. Because of that unfortunate...umm...episode with a newt.

Thanks for bringing up the painful past.

Don't worry, wizardry -- we'll get you through this latest bout with PTSD.

Thanks a lot Jimmy Recard.

You are right. I meant 5 years of being 30+ games below .500