2014 Draft Thread

[RunDogGun]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

We already went through this, and some of those players sat for only a few games, with reported injuries. Curry's injury was hard on them, as well as trading Ellis for an often injured Bogut. Moreover, it was Jackson's first season, and I highly doubt he was losing games on purpose in his debut season, just to get the seventh pick. Furthermore, there could have been any number of teams drafting behind them that could have moved up to the top three. Way too little evidence to support that theory, but hey many will do that with very little evidence.

[Cutter]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

Why would a player allow themselves to be sat with either no injury or a minor injury or a bogus injury? Wouldn't they raise a stink if that were to happen?

[bwgood77]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

We already went through this, and some of those players sat for only a few games, with reported injuries. Curry's injury was hard on them, as well as trading Ellis for an often injured Bogut. Moreover, it was Jackson's first season, and I highly doubt he was losing games on purpose in his debut season, just to get the seventh pick. Furthermore, there could have been any number of teams drafting behind them that could have moved up to the top three. Way too little evidence to support that theory, but hey many will do that with very little evidence.

There was quite a bit of evidence. Here is one quote from an article..

The Golden State Warriors launched one of the most egregious tanking campaigns in recent NBA history last year.
They were 18-21 — the third-worst record in the conference — with 26 games left when they completely and willfully collapsed.

They traded Monta Ellis for an injured Andrew Bogut, shut down Stephen Curry for the season, and benched David Lee with an ambiguous-sounding injury in the final weeks.

They went 5-22 to end the year.

The incentive was simple: their first-round draft pick was "top-7 protected," meaning Utah would have gotten it if it was 8th or higher.

Golden State was too young and thin to make any noise in the playoffs last year, so they sacrificed those last 26 games in embarrassing fashion to make sure they'd have a first-round pick.

It worked better than they ever imagined.

They ended up with the 7th-worst record in the league, got the 7th pick, and took Harrison Barnes — a talented ex-high school phenom who underperformed in college.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-s ... z2kaEio0G1

This one is even better...

The Golden State Warriors are the latest example of what happens when pick protection goes bad. To try to hold onto their top-seven protected pick, the Warriors have thoroughly tanked the second half of their season -- on Saturday night, rookie Charles Jenkins played 48 minutes and Mikki Moore got 24 minutes.

Mikki Moore!

Ethan Sherwood Strauss explains the Warriors’ motive and pinpoints the problem:

As the seventh-worst team, the Warriors have a 75 percent chance of keeping their pick. As the eighth-worst team, they have a 90 percent chance of losing it.
When picks are protected, especially in the late lottery, the impetus begs certain squads to tank.

Consider the risk-reward equation in this scenario: a seventh pick that could end up being a franchise cornerstone, or nothing.

Accordingly, since March 14 the Warriors have gone 5-19 in a desperate attempt to hang on to that protected pick. John Hollinger (Insider) has seen quite enough, and has a suggestion for how the league could prevent this kind of flagrant tanking:

Here's a memo to the league: Stop including conditional protections on draft choices like this. What the Warriors have done this past month is an abomination and needs to be stopped. The only protection that should be allowed are outside the top 14 or inside the top three.

We've seen too many teams make a mockery of the game in the final month of the season because they were trying to keep their draft pick (most notably in the infamous Mark Madsen 3-pointer game a few years back), and it's one of the big reasons that so many of the games in March and April stink.

Amen.

But the Warriors aren't done. Having come this far, Golden State still must lose their last two games to give itself its best opportunity to keep its pick.

How perverse is it that the Warriors’ big end-of-season test is whether they can lose to the lowly Hornets at home?

The question of how to motivate bad teams to play their hardest at the end of the regular season, when playoff seeding is decided, is a difficult one. But it’s not hard to notice that certain elements, like protected picks, directly cause some of the bad basketball we see each year.

This one’s not as comprehensive as some tanking fixes, but it's an easy one. Just do away with protected picks and instantly remove one of the most obvious reasons for teams to tank away huge portions of the season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... cted-picks

[wheezy]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

Why would a player allow themselves to be sat with either no injury or a minor injury or a bogus injury? Wouldn't they raise a stink if that were to happen?

Hunter/Blanks/Sarver sat a healthy Dragic for two games in March for "rest", i.e. to lose games against two teams it was beneficial to lose to. He said he would have played, but that it wasn't his call.

(http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/28/suns-resting-a-perfectly-healthy-goran-dragic/)

Side note: I'm so glad those first two bozos are gone.

[Cutter]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

Why would a player allow themselves to be sat with either no injury or a minor injury or a bogus injury? Wouldn't they raise a stink if that were to happen?

Hunter/Blanks/Sarver sat a healthy Dragic for two games in March for "rest", i.e. to lose games against two teams it was beneficial to lose to. He said he would have played, but that it wasn't his call.

(http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/28/suns-resting-a-perfectly-healthy-goran-dragic/)

Side note: I'm so glad those first two bozos are gone.

Sitting your (allegedly) healthy starting PG for 2 games doesn't constitute a tank IMO. If Goran was perfectly healthy and they sat him for 25+ games so marshall could play then I would agree that is a tank.

[RunDogGun]

Golden St blatantly tanked a couple of years ago to keep their pick (it was top 7 protected) and they ended up getting Harrison Barnes out of it. They fielded some of the worst lineups I've ever seen. They sat tons of guys with suspect injuries.

We already went through this, and some of those players sat for only a few games, with reported injuries. Curry's injury was hard on them, as well as trading Ellis for an often injured Bogut. Moreover, it was Jackson's first season, and I highly doubt he was losing games on purpose in his debut season, just to get the seventh pick. Furthermore, there could have been any number of teams drafting behind them that could have moved up to the top three. Way too little evidence to support that theory, but hey many will do that with very little evidence.

There was quite a bit of evidence. Here is one quote from an article..

The Golden State Warriors launched one of the most egregious tanking campaigns in recent NBA history last year.
They were 18-21 — the third-worst record in the conference — with 26 games left when they completely and willfully collapsed.

They traded Monta Ellis for an injured Andrew Bogut, shut down Stephen Curry for the season, and benched David Lee with an ambiguous-sounding injury in the final weeks.

They went 5-22 to end the year.

The incentive was simple: their first-round draft pick was "top-7 protected," meaning Utah would have gotten it if it was 8th or higher.

Golden State was too young and thin to make any noise in the playoffs last year, so they sacrificed those last 26 games in embarrassing fashion to make sure they'd have a first-round pick.

It worked better than they ever imagined.

They ended up with the 7th-worst record in the league, got the 7th pick, and took Harrison Barnes — a talented ex-high school phenom who underperformed in college.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/golden-s ... z2kaEio0G1

This one is even better...

The Golden State Warriors are the latest example of what happens when pick protection goes bad. To try to hold onto their top-seven protected pick, the Warriors have thoroughly tanked the second half of their season -- on Saturday night, rookie Charles Jenkins played 48 minutes and Mikki Moore got 24 minutes.

Mikki Moore!

Ethan Sherwood Strauss explains the Warriors’ motive and pinpoints the problem:

As the seventh-worst team, the Warriors have a 75 percent chance of keeping their pick. As the eighth-worst team, they have a 90 percent chance of losing it.
When picks are protected, especially in the late lottery, the impetus begs certain squads to tank.

Consider the risk-reward equation in this scenario: a seventh pick that could end up being a franchise cornerstone, or nothing.

Accordingly, since March 14 the Warriors have gone 5-19 in a desperate attempt to hang on to that protected pick. John Hollinger (Insider) has seen quite enough, and has a suggestion for how the league could prevent this kind of flagrant tanking:

Here's a memo to the league: Stop including conditional protections on draft choices like this. What the Warriors have done this past month is an abomination and needs to be stopped. The only protection that should be allowed are outside the top 14 or inside the top three.

We've seen too many teams make a mockery of the game in the final month of the season because they were trying to keep their draft pick (most notably in the infamous Mark Madsen 3-pointer game a few years back), and it's one of the big reasons that so many of the games in March and April stink.

Amen.

But the Warriors aren't done. Having come this far, Golden State still must lose their last two games to give itself its best opportunity to keep its pick.

How perverse is it that the Warriors’ big end-of-season test is whether they can lose to the lowly Hornets at home?

The question of how to motivate bad teams to play their hardest at the end of the regular season, when playoff seeding is decided, is a difficult one. But it’s not hard to notice that certain elements, like protected picks, directly cause some of the bad basketball we see each year.

This one’s not as comprehensive as some tanking fixes, but it's an easy one. Just do away with protected picks and instantly remove one of the most obvious reasons for teams to tank away huge portions of the season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... cted-picks

Please tell me you know that opinions are not facts, right?

[bwgood77]

Please tell me you know that opinions are not facts, right?

Seriously? No. Thanks so much for this! I've been so confused in life for so long, but suddenly many things have now become clear and made much more sense now that you've opened up my eyes.

[RunDogGun]

Please tell me you know that opinions are not facts, right?

Seriously? No. Thanks so much for this! I've been so confused in life for so long, but suddenly many things have now become clear and made much more sense now that you've opened up my eyes.

Anytime. both of your supposed evidence, had no evidence of tanking at all. Just opinions. So if you don't like my response, don't call opinions, evidence, and we will be on the same page.

It's pretty sad how sports journalist lack research and factual evidence, and just play to a lower mentality of the average fan.

[DRK]

Fantastic Fantastic article about the Suns and "tanking." A must-read article.

"If we do make the playoffs and are picking outside of the lottery, then that means our young players are pretty good. We have one of the youngest rosters, certainly one of the youngest rotations in the league. If Eric Bledsoe, Miles Plumlee, the Morris twins, Archie Goodwin and hopefully we get Alex Len back soon, if those guys all play well then that's great. I'd rather take my chances with those five or six guys going forward than putting all my eggs in one basket hoping one guy in the lottery is really good."

http://arizonasports.com/41/1677168/Sun ... he-lottery

[bwgood77]

Please tell me you know that opinions are not facts, right?

Seriously? No. Thanks so much for this! I've been so confused in life for so long, but suddenly many things have now become clear and made much more sense now that you've opened up my eyes.

Anytime. both of your supposed evidence, had no evidence of tanking at all. Just opinions. So if you don't like my response, don't call opinions, evidence, and we will be on the same page.

It's pretty sad how sports journalist lack research and factual evidence, and just play to a lower mentality of the average fan.

It was quite (no wait, EXTREMELY) apparent they REALLY wanted to lose to keep that draft pick. If you can't see that, then there is really nothing more to discuss about this.

[RunDogGun]

There wasn't anything to discuss. I wanted evidence, and you gave me opinions, and then added yet another opinion. Putting "extremely" on it does not back your opinion with any more facts. I went threw this with Praz, and he had no evidence then, just like you have none now. They were littered with injuries, they traded a good scorer for an injured big, and it was after the lockout. So many teams had major injuries that hindered their team's progress.

When you have actual evidence, we can revisit this. Maybe something like Curry saying,"I was completely healthy the whole season, have never had any issues with my ankles, and the only time I miss games is when my "extremely" competitive coach wants to lose games on purpose."

[wheezy]

Fantastic Fantastic article about the Suns and "tanking." A must-read article.

"If we do make the playoffs and are picking outside of the lottery, then that means our young players are pretty good. We have one of the youngest rosters, certainly one of the youngest rotations in the league. If Eric Bledsoe, Miles Plumlee, the Morris twins, Archie Goodwin and hopefully we get Alex Len back soon, if those guys all play well then that's great. I'd rather take my chances with those five or six guys going forward than putting all my eggs in one basket hoping one guy in the lottery is really good."

http://arizonasports.com/41/1677168/Sun ... he-lottery

And now back to the draft... there are some legitimate future all-stars in the top 6 or 7 guys next year, and some still incredible guys that'll be around in the teens (Harris, Young, and Selden looked good last night). The showcase last night was super fun to watch and it looks like it'll be a fun basketball season with the Suns playing how they are and the college season looking to be stacked. What are some other games coming up to look out for?

I'm starting to see people in the media calling Wiggins "Ender". Dude has a built in great nickname (sh*tty movie notwithstanding)

[bwgood77]

There wasn't anything to discuss. I wanted evidence, and you gave me opinions, and then added yet another opinion. Putting "extremely" on it does not back your opinion with any more facts. I went threw this with Praz, and he had no evidence then, just like you have none now. They were littered with injuries, they traded a good scorer for an injured big, and it was after the lockout. So many teams had major injuries that hindered their team's progress.

When you have actual evidence, we can revisit this. Maybe something like Curry saying,"I was completely healthy the whole season, have never had any issues with my ankles, and the only time I miss games is when my "extremely" competitive coach wants to lose games on purpose."

What kind of evidence do you want? A recorded interview with the coach and gm where someone is saying "we need to lose this game to have hopes of keeping our pick this year"?

This is ridiculous. Why do you care? You're acting like a defense lawyer. Of course I can't prove it, but the writing is/was on the wall. Were you just thinking "Man, GS was pretty good for awhile...they really just seem to be playing much worse lately....I can't seem to figure out why. It may be a plus for them in the end though because they might soon realize that they don't have to give their pick to Utah this year, because, oddly enough, they may finish with one of they seven worst records, and if no one happens to leapfrog them in the lottery, they may be able to add another piece to their team."

[RunDogGun]

There wasn't anything to discuss. I wanted evidence, and you gave me opinions, and then added yet another opinion. Putting "extremely" on it does not back your opinion with any more facts. I went threw this with Praz, and he had no evidence then, just like you have none now. They were littered with injuries, they traded a good scorer for an injured big, and it was after the lockout. So many teams had major injuries that hindered their team's progress.

When you have actual evidence, we can revisit this. Maybe something like Curry saying,"I was completely healthy the whole season, have never had any issues with my ankles, and the only time I miss games is when my "extremely" competitive coach wants to lose games on purpose."

What kind of evidence do you want? A recorded interview with the coach and gm where someone is saying "we need to lose this game to have hopes of keeping our pick this year"?

This is ridiculous. Why do you care? You're acting like a defense lawyer. Of course I can't prove it but a blind man could see that....

Again, I asked for evidence and you gave me opinions. If it's so obvious and even a "blind man can see" than even a child should be able to muster up some actual evidence.

[phrazbit]

There wasn't anything to discuss. I wanted evidence, and you gave me opinions, and then added yet another opinion. Putting "extremely" on it does not back your opinion with any more facts. I went threw this with Praz, and he had no evidence then, just like you have none now. They were littered with injuries, they traded a good scorer for an injured big, and it was after the lockout. So many teams had major injuries that hindered their team's progress.

When you have actual evidence, we can revisit this. Maybe something like Curry saying,"I was completely healthy the whole season, have never had any issues with my ankles, and the only time I miss games is when my "extremely" competitive coach wants to lose games on purpose."

What kind of evidence do you want? A recorded interview with the coach and gm where someone is saying "we need to lose this game to have hopes of keeping our pick this year"?

This is ridiculous. Why do you care? You're acting like a defense lawyer. Of course I can't prove it, but the writing is/was on the wall. Were you just thinking "Man, GS was pretty good for awhile...they really just seem to be playing much worse lately....I can't seem to figure out why. It may be a plus for them in the end though because they might soon realize that they don't have to give their pick to Utah this year, because, oddly enough, they may finish with one of they seven worst records, and if no one happens to leapfrog them in the lottery, they may be able to add another piece to their team."

Yes, thats what he wants. For RDG, circumstantial evidence is not evidence, its merely opinion because it requires interpretation. In court you can stack up enough of it and it might be enough to convict a murderer, but short of a confession on paper, RDG will vote to acquit.

[RunDogGun]

Sorry, I missed your added opinion there. Actually, I was thinking that they lost their best scorer due to an injury, took a gamble on Bogut, by trading their other best scorer, who often had off the court issues. Never had a starting center in place, and were constantly searching for guys to fill in the gaps.

It was after the lockout, so there was no training camp, they had a new coach, who was in no way a person that would purposely lose games, and no one has ANY evidence that he did, and were always stuck playing guys out of position. Yes, the outcome looks strange, but you honestly think they figured out how to exactly get the seventh pick after thirty-four games? Knowing exactly how each team would do around them? And then knew that the eighth pick wouldn't jump them into the top three spots like it did the year before, and after that draft?

If it's not too much to ask, I just want some actual evidence, not assumptions.

[RunDogGun]

There wasn't anything to discuss. I wanted evidence, and you gave me opinions, and then added yet another opinion. Putting "extremely" on it does not back your opinion with any more facts. I went threw this with Praz, and he had no evidence then, just like you have none now. They were littered with injuries, they traded a good scorer for an injured big, and it was after the lockout. So many teams had major injuries that hindered their team's progress.

When you have actual evidence, we can revisit this. Maybe something like Curry saying,"I was completely healthy the whole season, have never had any issues with my ankles, and the only time I miss games is when my "extremely" competitive coach wants to lose games on purpose."

What kind of evidence do you want? A recorded interview with the coach and gm where someone is saying "we need to lose this game to have hopes of keeping our pick this year"?

This is ridiculous. Why do you care? You're acting like a defense lawyer. Of course I can't prove it, but the writing is/was on the wall. Were you just thinking "Man, GS was pretty good for awhile...they really just seem to be playing much worse lately....I can't seem to figure out why. It may be a plus for them in the end though because they might soon realize that they don't have to give their pick to Utah this year, because, oddly enough, they may finish with one of they seven worst records, and if no one happens to leapfrog them in the lottery, they may be able to add another piece to their team."

Yes, thats what he wants. For RDG, circumstantial evidence is not evidence, its merely opinion because it requires interpretation. In court you can stack up enough of it and it might be enough to convict a murderer, but short of a confession on paper, RDG will vote to acquit.

Well if I was on the jury, actual evidence would be required to convict. As of right now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose. Until you have some, you can say all you want, but you'll have nothing to back up your OPINIONS.

[bwgood77]

No, they didn't strategize to specifically get the 7th pick. They were likely hoping to jump higher than that, but you can bet your ass they were hoping, at worst, that they better get the 7th pick.

I can't even fathom that if someone read about the nba much, that anyone would look at everyone pointing at what GS was doing at the time and think "These guys have no evidence. Looks to me like they are out there trying to win some games"

I will say that I don't necessarily think Mark Jackson was in on it, but he may have been told by the doctor or something that David Lee should probably sit out because "the doctor saw something that didn't look right and we need to take precautionary measures" (no, that is not an actual quote but a pretend one)

[phrazbit]

Well if I was on the jury, actual evidence would be required to convict. As of right now, there is no evidence to support GS losing games on purpose. Until you have some, you can say all you want, but you'll have nothing to back up your OPINIONS.

There is evidence, multiple games of absolutely inexplicable player usage. Healthy vets getting DNPs while d-league scrubs play 40 minutes, its not "opinion" that those things happened, its a fact. But your standard of "evidence" is a confession.

[RunDogGun]

No, they didn't strategize to specifically get the 7th pick. They were likely hoping to jump higher than that, but you can bet your ass they were hoping, at worst, that they better get the 7th pick.

I can't even fathom that if someone read about the nba much, that anyone would look at everyone pointing at what GS was doing at the time and think "These guys have no evidence. Looks to me like they are out there trying to win some games"

I will say that I don't necessarily think Mark Jackson was in on it, but he may have been told by the doctor or something that David Lee should probably sit out because "the doctor saw something that didn't look right and we need to take precautionary measures" (no, that is not an actual quote but a pretend one)

They had a ton of injuries in a shorten season with tons of back to backs and some three games in a row. Lee has had the same injury a few times, are you saying he faked it last year as well? Every attempt Praz had at pointing out cheating, was easily explained by injuries, and lack of depth. The guys they had to fill in roles, were very streaky, and the others were rookies. They had so many rookies that year.

The problem with your theory, if you are excluding Jackson, is you would have to have proof that every guy that sat out due to injuries, were faking it. After watching those players for many years, I call total bs on that. Curry is jot that kind of player, neither is Lee. Heck Lee tried to come back last year when he was quite injured. The only thing you have is the final six games, when they were clearly out of the playoffs, and they started to play their rookies to see what they had on their bench. But all teams do that. You play guys to evaluate your talent, and/or see guys you want to invest in, for the future. But in no way is that "tanking" or losing games on purpose.

To me, it just seems like some of you guys have never played a competitive game in your lives.