'14 Draft Thread - Now With a Poll: VOTE OR DIE.

[skones]

Oh I realize Toronto is a much larger city then Milwaukee, trust me. I should have clarified, that was quite ignorant of me to assume posters like u would reasonably interpret my post. I meant that Toronto being a far northern city is similar to Milwaukee in climate and in activities compared to say LA or Miami. Kansas is smack dab in the middle of farm country right in the heartland, basically the opposite of living out on either coast where there are located the cities that due to their allure typically draw top NBA talent to sign when they become unrestrcted free agents.

But it's not. While the climates are relatively similar, (so are Chicago and Milwaukee), Toronto compares much more favorably to a city like Chicago which has a very large Downtown area. Would you say that Milwaukee and Chicago are all that similar? Again, the college location is a reach, as some of the best programs in the country are in areas which are far from media hotbeds. Colleges are chosen because of the level of the program for the most part. You're overanalyzing that decision and taking it out of program context. (Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) As far as "reasonably" interpreting your post based on locational values, there's no way to do it. It's a reach and nothing but wishful thinking based on the evidence you provided.

[CanadaBucks]

Oh I realize Toronto is a much larger city then Milwaukee, trust me. I should have clarified, that was quite ignorant of me to assume posters like u would reasonably interpret my post. I meant that Toronto being a far northern city is similar to Milwaukee in climate and in activities compared to say LA or Miami. Kansas is smack dab in the middle of farm country right in the heartland, basically the opposite of living out on either coast where there are located the cities that due to their allure typically draw top NBA talent to sign when they become unrestrcted free agents.

But it's not. While the climates are relatively similar, (so are Chicago and Milwaukee), Toronto compares much more favorably to a city like Chicago which has a very large Downtown area. Would you say that Milwaukee and Chicago are all that similar? Again, the college location is a reach, as some of the best programs in the country are in areas which are far from media hotbeds. Colleges are chosen because of the level of the program for the most part. You're overanalyzing that decision and taking it out of program context. (Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) As far as "reasonably" interpreting your post based on locational values, there's no way to do it. It's a reach and nothing but wishful thinking based on the evidence you provided.

Funny thing is that I'm not sure Wiggins does much for the general hoops fans in Canada off the bat. Nash would probably get more fanfare right now. Of course if he is a franchise saviour that would come but I'm not sure initially he would.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Oh I realize Toronto is a much larger city then Milwaukee, trust me. I should have clarified, that was quite ignorant of me to assume posters like u would reasonably interpret my post. I meant that Toronto being a far northern city is similar to Milwaukee in climate and in activities compared to say LA or Miami. Kansas is smack dab in the middle of farm country right in the heartland, basically the opposite of living out on either coast where there are located the cities that due to their allure typically draw top NBA talent to sign when they become unrestrcted free agents.

But it's not. While the climates are relatively similar, (so are Chicago and Milwaukee), Toronto compares much more favorably to a city like Chicago which has a very large Downtown area. Would you say that Milwaukee and Chicago are all that similar? Again, the college location is a reach, as some of the best programs in the country are in areas which are far from media hotbeds. Colleges are chosen because of the level of the program for the most part. You're overanalyzing that decision and taking it out of program context. (Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) As far as "reasonably" interpreting your post based on locational values, there's no way to do it. It's a reach and nothing but wishful thinking based on the evidence you provided.

Thank u for helping me make my case for me. Yes Toronto and Chicago are comparable cities in many ways, u are correct in that judgement. And history tells us that cities like Chicago and Toronto are not draws to NBA free agents, or at least have not drawn top tier FAs to sign there to this point in NBA history. Contrast that with cities like New York, LA, Miami, and Houston which have shown themselves to be able to attract top tier NBA FAs.

Now to the point youre obliviously -and, frankly, embarrassingly imo- making for me, if a person can be happy and content living in Toroto or Chicago or say Minneapolis I would argue they could be perfectly content living in a city like Milwaukee. If a player needs to live in a city with the atmosphere of an Atlanta, LA, Houston, Miami, or New York to be happy I don't think living in Milwaukee will ever be able to provide said player with a fulfilling lifestyle.

Which brings us to the question of what type of person Mr. Wiggins happens to be. I think the fact that he chose Kansas over a more costal or warmer climate location (or even a place with more of a reputation as a party school) is meaningful to a certain extent. U disagree. That's fine. You think I'm ignorant for bringing up this discussion and I think you're ignorant for denigrating it. That's fine as well. I dont think either of us is gonna change the other's opinion, but considering who has better instincts and judgement generally -and I think the fact that until very recently u were arguing forcefully against the intelligence and effectiveness of trying to execute a tanking strategy speaks volumes about your judgement/instincts or lack thereof- I'm confident and perfectly happy letting other posters decide whose line of thinking is more sound and whose point is better argued...

[skones]

Oh I realize Toronto is a much larger city then Milwaukee, trust me. I should have clarified, that was quite ignorant of me to assume posters like u would reasonably interpret my post. I meant that Toronto being a far northern city is similar to Milwaukee in climate and in activities compared to say LA or Miami. Kansas is smack dab in the middle of farm country right in the heartland, basically the opposite of living out on either coast where there are located the cities that due to their allure typically draw top NBA talent to sign when they become unrestrcted free agents.

But it's not. While the climates are relatively similar, (so are Chicago and Milwaukee), Toronto compares much more favorably to a city like Chicago which has a very large Downtown area. Would you say that Milwaukee and Chicago are all that similar? Again, the college location is a reach, as some of the best programs in the country are in areas which are far from media hotbeds. Colleges are chosen because of the level of the program for the most part. You're overanalyzing that decision and taking it out of program context. (Duke, Kansas, UNC, Kentucky) As far as "reasonably" interpreting your post based on locational values, there's no way to do it. It's a reach and nothing but wishful thinking based on the evidence you provided.

Thank u for helping me make my case for me. Yes Toronto and Chicago are comparable cities in many ways, u are correct in that judgement. And history tells us that cities like Chicago and Toronto are not draws to NBA free agents, or at least have not drawn top tier FAs to sign there to this point in NBA history. Contrast that with cities like New York, LA, Miami, and Houston which have shown themselves to be able to attract top tier NBA FAs.

Now to the point youre obliviously -and, frankly, embarrassingly imo- making for me, if a person can be happy and content living in Toroto or Chicago or say Minneapolis I would argue they could be perfectly content living in a city like Milwaukee. If a player needs to live in a city with the atmosphere of an Atlanta, LA, Houston, Miami, or New York to be happy I don't think living in Milwaukee will ever be able to provide said player with a fulfilling lifestyle.

Which brings us to the question of what type of person Mr. Wiggins happens to be. I think the fact that he chose Kansas over a more costal or warmer climate location (or even a place with more of a reputation as a party school) is meaningful to a certain extent. U disagree. That's fine. You think I'm ignorant for bringing up this discussion and I think you're ignorant for denigrating it. That's fine as well. I dont think either of us is gonna change the other's opinion, but considering who has better instincts and judgement generally -and I think the fact that until very recently u were arguing forcefully against the intelligence and effectiveness of trying to execute a tanking strategy speaks volumes about your judgement/instincts or lack thereof- I'm confident and perfectly happy letting other posters decide whose line of thinking is more sound and whose point is better argued...

What planet do you live on that you don't believe that Chicago is a free agent destination city? You're basically using, If A=B, and B=C, then A=C while Chicago > Toronto, Toronto > Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee = Chicago or Toronto.

[ReddWing]

What superstar free agents have ever went to Chicago or Toronto?

I don't really care if someone likes it here. They aren't here to party or sire their bastards. Do that **** on the road. We draft you, you have to be here for a long ass time. Better start learning to drink in bars like men rather than VIP rooms like a douchebag. Oh wait, your only 19? How about you use that rookie contract to buy an XBox 1?
You want to be a superstar? Play like one. You will sell shoes regardless of what city you play in. You want commercials? Go ask Bucks fan Aaron Rodgers how it's done. Maybe, just maybe, he will introduce you to David Gruber.

[whatthe_buck!?]

What planet do you live on that you don't believe that Chicago is a free agent destination city? You're basically using, If A=B, and B=C, then A=C while Chicago > Toronto, Toronto > Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee = Chicago or Toronto.

The Planet where the city of Chicago isnt a big enough draw to win FA battles against other top FA destinations when in direct competition? Honestly, name a top free agent the Bulls have signed in the modern free agency era that didnt occur while the greatest player in basketball history was playing there? Inotherwords besides Dennis Rodman, who have they signed when in direct competition with places like Miami, LA, NY etc? Please answer Carlos Boozer or Kyle Korver so I can laugh even harder at a post of yours than I already have been.

To be perfectly accurate, it's all about tiers, yes Chicago is generally a more desirable FA destination than Toronto and Toronto is in turn on a higher tier as a FA destination than Milwaukee, but the bottom line is all three are on tiers below LA, NY, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, etc. primarily because of the climate (but also in a large part due to the state taxes in those respective locations).

It's ok that you don't have a sophisticated understanding of the myriad factors that influence an NBA star to chose one city over another, not everyone is capable of comprehending complex issues such as the one u are trying to force yourself into so u can make angry veiled insults. It's probably a big part of the reason u have such a failure of comprehension when it comes to following the pretty obviously correct logic that leads one to embrace tanking as the best solution to the incredibly adverse situation the Bucks find themselves in at the moment...

[whatthe_buck!?]

What superstar free agents have ever went to Chicago or Toronto?
I don't really care if someone likes it here. They aren't here to party or sire their bastards. Do that **** on the road. We draft you, you have to be here for a long ass time. Better start learning to drink in bars like men rather than VIP rooms like a douchebag. Oh wait, your only 19? How about you use that rookie contract to buy an XBox 1?
You want to be a superstar? Play like one. You will sell shoes regardless of what city you play in. You want commercials? Go ask Bucks fan Aaron Rodgers how it's done. Maybe, just maybe, he will introduce you to David Gruber.

Please make this concept clearer to skones, he refuses to open his mind to my perspective, maybe he will be more willing to do so for u...

[ReddWing]

Please make this concept clearer to skones, he refuses to open his mind to my perspective, maybe he will be more willing to do so for u...

Chicago has been great at drafting and keeping players but nobody goes out of their way to play there. Toronto has been much worse than Milwaukee. They lost T-Mac, Vince Carter, and Bosh. We lost Kareem back in the 70's in a great trade for both teams. We were mocked by Josh Smith, who later claimed he would consider staying in Milwaukee if the trade went down. We were sort of mocked by scrub and Chair Man Yi who needed more Chinese people around him. Joakim Noah didn't want to work out here before the draft.

So the people who don't want to play here are a-holes, a few scrubs, and immature players.

[skones]

What planet do you live on that you don't believe that Chicago is a free agent destination city? You're basically using, If A=B, and B=C, then A=C while Chicago > Toronto, Toronto > Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee = Chicago or Toronto.

The Planet where the city of Chicago isnt a big enough draw to win FA battles against other top FA destinations when in direct competition? Honestly, name a top free agent the Bulls have signed in the modern free agency era that didnt occur while the greatest player in basketball history was playing there? Inotherwords besides Dennis Rodman, who have they signed when in direct competition with places like Miami, LA, NY etc? Please answer Carlos Boozer or Kyle Korver so I can laugh even harder at a post of yours than I already have been.

To be perfectly accurate, it's all about tiers, yes Chicago is generally a more desirable FA destination than Toronto and Toronto is in turn on a higher tier as a FA destination than Milwaukee, but the bottom line is all three are on tiers below LA, NY, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, etc. primarily because of the climate (but also in a large part due to the state taxes in those respective locations).

It's ok that you don't have a sophisticated understanding of the myriad factors that influence an NBA star to chose one city over another, not everyone is capable of comprehending complex issues such as the one u are trying to force yourself into so u can make angry veiled insults. It's probably a big part of the reason u have such a failure of comprehension when it comes to following the pretty obviously correct logic that leads one to embrace tanking as the best solution to the incredibly adverse situation the Bucks find themselves in at the moment...

Boozer DID sign there, and he was a big time free agent that summer whether you want to admit it or not. How about Ben Wallace, a perennial DPOY candidate that was supposed to be the final piece for big money for that team. I'd say that's a rather significant get as well. When the Kobe-Shaq fiasco was going on, there were more than a few whispers of Kobe Bryant possibly landing in Chicago. What it comes down to is dollars and cents. Chicago is the third largest city in the country, will give more exposure to professional athletes, and thus, will open up opportunities for guys who choose to play there. Let's not forget that they've been able to keep their players IN CHICAGO. Something Milwaukee will always have trouble with when offering up comparable monetary values to players. Why is this? The market. Why you want to boil this down to free agents and free agents alone is beyond me.

Chicago IS NOT a tier below teams like Houston and Atlanta. You're honestly going to sit there and throw ATLANTA at me with the points you're making about Chicago? You can't be serious.

It seems it is you who misunderstands the "myriad" of factors at play here, much like you fail to see the hypocrisy intertwined in your last paragraph.

Why you're bringing up tanking, like I'm against it, is rather hilarious, given how I've been against committing extra money to players like Salmons, Ilyasova, and Moute in recent memory, while others throw around statements like, "fair market value" which ultimately leads to us being a treadmill team in the first place. When have I ever said tanking was a bad idea?

[LUKE23]

Really, in today's NBA, it's more about what talent is already there, or what talent is going there with you, when the big name FA's pick their teams. For example, if a few years ago the roles were reversed, and Miami had major cap/talent issues, and Cleveland somehow cleared $50M in cap space, my guess is you'd see all three of LeBron/Wade/Bosh in Cavs jeseys right now. Howard doesn't go to Houston if Harden isn't already there. It's more about teaming up and having a realistic shot at a championship than it is about city size, weather, etc. I firmly believe that if Milwaukee had a core like say Golden State's heading into this summer, they could have lured Iggy. That's just one example. What I'm really getting at here is that our market doesn't hold us back nearly as much as people want to argue. Get a young contending core in place and the Bucks won't have issues attracting sought after FA.

[whatthe_buck!?]

What planet do you live on that you don't believe that Chicago is a free agent destination city? You're basically using, If A=B, and B=C, then A=C while Chicago > Toronto, Toronto > Milwaukee, yet Milwaukee = Chicago or Toronto.

The Planet where the city of Chicago isnt a big enough draw to win FA battles against other top FA destinations when in direct competition? Honestly, name a top free agent the Bulls have signed in the modern free agency era that didnt occur while the greatest player in basketball history was playing there? Inotherwords besides Dennis Rodman, who have they signed when in direct competition with places like Miami, LA, NY etc? Please answer Carlos Boozer or Kyle Korver so I can laugh even harder at a post of yours than I already have been.

To be perfectly accurate, it's all about tiers, yes Chicago is generally a more desirable FA destination than Toronto and Toronto is in turn on a higher tier as a FA destination than Milwaukee, but the bottom line is all three are on tiers below LA, NY, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, etc. primarily because of the climate (but also in a large part due to the state taxes in those respective locations).

It's ok that you don't have a sophisticated understanding of the myriad factors that influence an NBA star to chose one city over another, not everyone is capable of comprehending complex issues such as the one u are trying to force yourself into so u can make angry veiled insults. It's probably a big part of the reason u have such a failure of comprehension when it comes to following the pretty obviously correct logic that leads one to embrace tanking as the best solution to the incredibly adverse situation the Bucks find themselves in at the moment...

Boozer DID sign there, and he was a big time free agent that summer whether you want to admit it or not. How about Ben Wallace, a perennial DPOY candidate that was supposed to be the final piece for big money for that team. I'd say that's a rather significant get as well. When the Kobe-Shaq fiasco was going on, there were more than a few whispers of Kobe Bryant possibly landing in Chicago. What it comes down to is dollars and cents. Chicago is the third largest city in the country, will give more exposure to professional athletes, and thus, will open up opportunities for guys who choose to play there. Let's not forget that they've been able to keep their players IN CHICAGO. Something Milwaukee will always have trouble with when offering up comparable monetary values to players. Why is this? The market. Why you want to boil this down to free agents and free agents alone is beyond me.

Chicago IS NOT a tier below teams like Houston and Atlanta. You're honestly going to sit there and throw ATLANTA at me with the points you're making about Chicago? You can't be serious.

It seems it is you who misunderstands the "myriad" of factors at play here, much like you fail to see the hypocrisy intertwined in your last paragraph.

Why you're bringing up tanking, like I'm against it, is rather hilarious, given how I've been against committing extra money to players like Salmons, Ilyasova, and Moute in recent memory, while others throw around statements like, "fair market value" which ultimately leads to us being a treadmill team in the first place. When have I ever said tanking was a bad idea?

A washed up Ben Wallace? Carlos Boozer after they maxed him out to get him?? That's the best u got? Once again, thank u for continuing to argue against yourself for me. And hypocrisy based on what, that I put Atlanta a tier above Chicago as far as being a FA destination for top NBA FAs? What youre implying makes no sense and I most certainly stand by that ranking 100%. Final question: so it's your claim that you've never argued against tanking being the best option for the Bucks this season? Are u really actually making that claim Skones??

[ReasonablySober]

Remember when Kobe was trying to force a deal to Chicago?

[whatthe_buck!?]

Really, in today's NBA, it's more about what talent is already there, or what talent is going there with you, when the big name FA's pick their teams. For example, if a few years ago the roles were reversed, and Miami had major cap/talent issues, and Cleveland somehow cleared $50M in cap space, my guess is you'd see all three of LeBron/Wade/Bosh in Cavs jeseys right now. Howard doesn't go to Houston if Harden isn't already there. It's more about teaming up and having a realistic shot at a championship than it is about city size, weather, etc. I firmly believe that if Milwaukee had a core like say Golden State's heading into this summer, they could have lured Iggy. That's just one example. What I'm really getting at here is that our market doesn't hold us back nearly as much as people want to argue. Get a young contending core in place and the Bucks won't have issues attracting sought after FA.

Good post. Build a championship core and u probably won't lose guys to FA no matter the market size. But I also acknowledge the existence of players (Brandon Jennings being one example) who do have the desire to play in bigger markets and "destination" cities all else being equal. The more a guy has a Brandon Jennings mindset the less I want him on the Bucks...

[skones]

The Planet where the city of Chicago isnt a big enough draw to win FA battles against other top FA destinations when in direct competition? Honestly, name a top free agent the Bulls have signed in the modern free agency era that didnt occur while the greatest player in basketball history was playing there? Inotherwords besides Dennis Rodman, who have they signed when in direct competition with places like Miami, LA, NY etc? Please answer Carlos Boozer or Kyle Korver so I can laugh even harder at a post of yours than I already have been.

To be perfectly accurate, it's all about tiers, yes Chicago is generally a more desirable FA destination than Toronto and Toronto is in turn on a higher tier as a FA destination than Milwaukee, but the bottom line is all three are on tiers below LA, NY, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, etc. primarily because of the climate (but also in a large part due to the state taxes in those respective locations).

It's ok that you don't have a sophisticated understanding of the myriad factors that influence an NBA star to chose one city over another, not everyone is capable of comprehending complex issues such as the one u are trying to force yourself into so u can make angry veiled insults. It's probably a big part of the reason u have such a failure of comprehension when it comes to following the pretty obviously correct logic that leads one to embrace tanking as the best solution to the incredibly adverse situation the Bucks find themselves in at the moment...

Boozer DID sign there, and he was a big time free agent that summer whether you want to admit it or not. How about Ben Wallace, a perennial DPOY candidate that was supposed to be the final piece for big money for that team. I'd say that's a rather significant get as well. When the Kobe-Shaq fiasco was going on, there were more than a few whispers of Kobe Bryant possibly landing in Chicago. What it comes down to is dollars and cents. Chicago is the third largest city in the country, will give more exposure to professional athletes, and thus, will open up opportunities for guys who choose to play there. Let's not forget that they've been able to keep their players IN CHICAGO. Something Milwaukee will always have trouble with when offering up comparable monetary values to players. Why is this? The market. Why you want to boil this down to free agents and free agents alone is beyond me.

Chicago IS NOT a tier below teams like Houston and Atlanta. You're honestly going to sit there and throw ATLANTA at me with the points you're making about Chicago? You can't be serious.

It seems it is you who misunderstands the "myriad" of factors at play here, much like you fail to see the hypocrisy intertwined in your last paragraph.

Why you're bringing up tanking, like I'm against it, is rather hilarious, given how I've been against committing extra money to players like Salmons, Ilyasova, and Moute in recent memory, while others throw around statements like, "fair market value" which ultimately leads to us being a treadmill team in the first place. When have I ever said tanking was a bad idea?

A washed up Ben Wallace? Carlos Boozer after they maxed him out to get him?? That's the best u got? Once again, thank u for continuing to argue against yourself for me. And hypocrisy based on what, that I put Atlanta a tier above Chicago as far as being a FA destination for top NBA FAs? What youre implying makes no sense and I most certainly stand by that ranking 100%. Final question: so it's your claim that you've never argued against tanking being the best option for the Bucks this season? Are u really actually making that claim Skones??

I was in favor of dealing for Rondo under certain principles where we were to give up very little. Yes. Much of that was due to the reality of this franchise and their refusal to tank. The offseason then blew up in managements face and made it a distinct possibility whether intentional or not because of the limited number of options the team had going forward. If you remember all of this, then you'd also remember myself being one of the very few on this board claiming that this team would be god awful, and saying that we'd be in the running for a very good pick next summer arguing with quite a few people who claimed we'd be a "better team" because we "subtracted" Ellis and Jennings, thus putting us back in that 37-40 win limbo. But yes I am saying that, I never once argued against tanking, or claimed that it would be a bad idea for this franchise to do so.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Remember when Kobe was trying to force a deal to Chicago?

Unique situation. Not only did Kobe correctly recognize that Chicago had the best core in place to allow him to chase multiple rings before he retired, but he also had/has an almost psychotically obsessive desire to emulate/one up Michael Jordan. Him forcing a trade to Chicago had nothing to do with the City itself or the allure of that particular market, it had everything to do with his own idolization of Jordan and with a cold calculation of the best situation for him to go to if traded...

[ReasonablySober]

Remember when Kobe was trying to force a deal to Chicago?

Unique situation. Not only did Kobe correctly recognize that Chicago had the best core in place to allow him to chase multiple rings before he retired, but he also had/has an almost psychotically obsessive desire to emulate/one up Michael Jordan. Him forcing a trade to Chicago had nothing to do with the City itself or the allure of that particular market, it had everything to do with his own idolization of Jordan and with a cold calculation of the best situation for him to go to if traded...

Well all the situations are pretty unique. It's not like there are franchise changing free agents available every summer, and Chicago hasn't had the cap space to acquire them each time. You seem to be using the one summer when LeBron didn't go to Chicago as an indictment of it's desirability as a FA destination.

[xTitan]

I am battling a flu bug flipping around the dial and thought of an interesting trade scenario for the Bucks. I realize the majority of us want to tank, but set that aside for a moment and think of Ersan to Houston for Asik. Would give the Bucks a legit center and Ersan is expendable.....I know it could derail the tank a little, but is am bored and sick.

[paulpressey25]

Wade, Bosh also turned down the Bulls. They let T-Mac sing with Harry Carey and he turned them down in 2000, as did Grant Hill, Duncan. Even Tim Thomas was offered more money by the Bulls 6/$72 than the 6/$68 he got from us.

Star NBA players generally don't like Chicago. Don't like the city nor the climate nor the owner.

[LUKE23]

I am battling a flu bug flipping around the dial and thought of an interesting trade scenario for the Bucks. I realize the majority of us want to tank, but set that aside for a moment and think of Ersan to Houston for Asik. Would give the Bucks a legit center and Ersan is expendable.....I know it could derail the tank a little, but is am bored and sick.

Been talked about already. And no. Move Ersan for youth and/or a pick. We don't want anything that helps us win. And we already have a stud defensive center. I realize some people have just given up on Sanders after two bad games, but I'm not one of them.

[CanadaBucks]

I am battling a flu bug flipping around the dial and thought of an interesting trade scenario for the Bucks. I realize the majority of us want to tank, but set that aside for a moment and think of Ersan to Houston for Asik. Would give the Bucks a legit center and Ersan is expendable.....I know it could derail the tank a little, but is am bored and sick.

Been talked about already. And no. Move Ersan for youth and/or a pick. We don't want anything that helps us win. And we already have a stud defensive center. I realize some people have just given up on Sanders after two bad games, but I'm not one of them.

Baddy actually tabled a decent proposal:

Asik>POR
Ersan, udoh>HOU
TRob, McCollum>MKE