06 Elton Brand - top 10 PF peak ever?

[The Infamous1]

Would anyone take grizzlies Pau over Brand?

Because I don't see what aspect of his game significantly changed from Memphis to LA. He just was on a better team

Definitely wouldn't take Grizzlies Gasol over Brand. That's a pretty easy comparison because Gasol had his best season in Memphis the same year Brand peaked, and I can't think of anyone who thought Gasol was better at the time.

But I saw significant improvements post-'08 for Gasol. After the loss to Boston, Gasol gained weight, was noticeably stronger and played noticeably tougher to the point where the soft label really didn't seem appropriate during the '09 and '10 seasons, imo. Not surprisingly, he became a significantly better rebounder around this time than he had been prior, and was better defensively. Not as much of a difference offensively, but I'd say he was a bit better in the low post, partially for the same reason, and he seemed to be a more accurate mid-range shooter.

Obviously, the situation was a noticeable difference. Pau seemed to benefit from a great coach in Phil, being a perfect fit for the triangle, and Kobe being the primary focus of opposing defenses, but it's clear that Pau was at his best in '09 and '10. The reason I think Pau's impact shouldn't be underestimated is the impact he made on the Lakers instantly. In the '08 season, he went to the Lakers after they had already lost Bynum, so that's essentially a 42-45 win team without him, and for the '07-'08 season, they were 24-11 with Bynum, 11-9 without Bynum or Gasol(really 11-10 including a game Pau only played 4 minutes in) and 22-4 with Gasol excluding that same 4 minute game. That's an enormous improvement, and as mentioned, he improved after '08.

He's not going to be the guy you think of when picking first options, but when you get beyond the players you think could actually win as "the man" in the way MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Wade, Dirk ect. have, I think you have to start looking at guys who can make a huge impact as 2nd options, and Gasol was great with that in mind.

He improved defensively but would that be enough in a debate with brand who is clearly better on that end? Even you said there wasn't much of a difference offensively. The only numbers I see that went up with Pau was his overall efficiency(FG/TS) and his offensive rebounding which can easily be attributed to better teammates. Guys don't just improve that much at that stage in their careers

As for the Lakers record, if I replaced Pau with someone like Bosh, Amare, or for this threads comparison Brand would it be any different? When Bynum went down aside from odom the lakers had no NBA level big men

[ShaqAttack3234]

He improved defensively but would that be enough in a debate with brand who is clearly better on that end? Even you said there wasn't much of a difference offensively. The only numbers I see that went up with Pau was his overall efficiency(FG/TS) and his offensive rebounding which can easily be attributed to better teammates. Guys don't just improve that much at that stage in their careers

Pau was only 27 when he was traded to LA, and had only played 6 1/2 seasons which is precisely when a lot of players take their game to the highest level they'll reach, especially since Pau also got late round playoff experience for the first time in '08, and undoubtedly came back a better player as a result.

In addition to defense, he went from being a pretty mediocre rebounder for a PF/C and 7 footer to a very solid one. In Memphis, Pau had a TRB% under 14% his first 5 seasons, though he did have a 16.3 TRB% in '07, but it came in a season he only played 59 games in and on a bad rebounding team that was outrebounded 2.5 rpg.

In LA, he put up TRB% of 14.7% in '09, 17.1% in '10 and 15.6% in '11 and '12. Much better than his Memphis days, especially when you consider he played with either Odom or Bynum throughout that time. Especially with Mike Brown's idiotic offense keeping Pau further away from the basket in '12.

Gasol stepped up big in '10 when either Bynum or Kobe were out as well. Something like 22 ppg, 12-13 rpg and 4 apg in both the 9 games without Kobe and 17 without Bynum. Also put up something like 21/11 in 31 games without Bynum, iirc and around 20/12/4, iirc in 28 games without Bynum in '12. No doubt Pau was held back when he played with Bynum. It was visible how much better he looked and the Laker offense looked with Odom/Gasol.

As for the Lakers record, if I replaced Pau with someone like Bosh, Amare, or for this threads comparison Brand would it be any different? When Bynum went down aside from odom the lakers had no NBA level big men

Absolutely no way in hell do I see Bosh or Amare making the same difference on the Lakers that Gasol did. I actually really like Amare too, but reportedly one of the reasons Phil wasn't interested in the Knick job in 2012 was how much he disliked Amare's game, and his feeling that he couldn't play in the triangle. Amare's offensive game wouldn't be as effective in the triangle as Gasol's was, and in addition to the losing Gasol's great low post game in favor of a big man whose at his best in screen/rolls, facing up or running the floor, you also go from an excellent passer to a poor one. Amare's rebounding was also weak, he's always been a below average defender and to have done what Gasol did, he'd have to play a lot of center, which he's obviously done in Phoenix and his first year in NY, but it takes away from your defense and rebounding. Amare can be very good on team's like the Suns with Nash or the 2011 Knicks, but Amare in Gasol's place on the '08-'10 Lakers doesn't look like a good fit at all to me.

As for Brand, I'm not arguing against his peak vs Gasol, but I'm doubtful he'd have been as good for that Laker team as Gasol was. I think the things Gasol did were just better suited to that team.

[The Infamous1]

Amares rebounding numbers in Pheonix and Pau's pre LA are very close. Same with bosh, who was actually a better rebounder. Plus both are better scorers.

I think Pau is a slightly better player then both, but it's funny how winning changes perceptions.

I'll take brand over all 3

[BmanInBigD]

It may have been a fluke, but '06 Brand was better than any version of Webber, Pau, or anybody else since 2000 not named Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk. That's just his 1-year peak. Prime, longevity, etc is a different story.

This is beyond ridiculous 06 Brand 25/10 is better than 01 Webber who averaged 27-11-4? No way do you actually believe that. This is like weeks ago when you had people arguing that Gilbert Arenas peak was better than Iverson's

Of course I believe it. I'd rather look at Brand's PER of 26.5 to Webber's 24.7; or his 58%TS compared to Webber's 51.6; or his 116/100 O/DRtg to CWebb's 105/97; or even Brand's .229 WS/48 to his .186. But go ahead and look at raw stats of 2 points and 1 rebound that separates them and call me ridiculous.

[CaliBullsFan]

Amares rebounding numbers in Pheonix and Pau's pre LA are very close. Same with bosh, who was actually a better rebounder. Plus both are better scorers.

I think Pau is a slightly better player then both, but it's funny how winning changes perceptions.

I'll take brand over all 3

In what supposed to be Brand's best season(06) Pau lead the Grizz to more wins with a worse supporting cast. And thats not even Pau's peak.

[The Infamous1]

I don't think citing a season were he got swept out of the playoffs is making Pau's case

[NO-KG-AI]

[
Webber's better than Brand at everything.
Pau is better at everything except offensive rebounding

You sure about that? Pretty sure defense is still played in the NBA and there is zero chance either of those guys are close to Brand defensively. Esp Webber.

Brand wasn't good defensively, he got blocks and steals which is good for fantasy but for the most part struggled to guard his position because he was 6'6. Except for 06 when he got to play with Cassell he had a huge offensive responsibility which usually meant taking possessions of on D.

Peak 08-10 Pau was great defensively easily better than Brand. Webber much like Brand got blocks and steals and took possessions off on D because of his offensive responsibility but at least had the size to put up a fight against other PFs.

Terrible post full of misinformation. Brand WAS good defensively, and he wasn't 6'6, he was 6'8.25 in socks, and 6'9+ in shoes, with 7'5.5 inch wingspan, and a 9'2 standing reach(same as Tyson chandler). 260+ pounds. He was an inch shorter than Webber, but had about 3 inches of wingspan, he was about an inch under Dwight howard's measurements all the way around..

This sounds like someone that looked at Brand as an undersized big, and automatically assumes he was a bad defender.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Amares rebounding numbers in Pheonix and Pau's pre LA are very close. Same with bosh, who was actually a better rebounder. Plus both are better scorers.

Amare's rebounding numbers were solid in '07, but his rebounding numbers overall being similar to Pau's Memphis numbers doesn't mean much considering I already said Pau was a mediocre rebounder for his size/position in Memphis. I'd also still call Amare one. That just seemed to be the case watching him, most regarded him as one, and his rebounding numbers aren't very impressive especially when you consider they came on a run and gun team that played a small lineup and didn't rebound.

As for Bosh, he had a couple of good rebounding seasons in Toronto, primarily 2010 when he bulked up to 250 pounds and I thought played more aggressively overall and easily the best basketball of his career. Definitely a top 15 player that year, imo, and for some strange reason lost the weight he had gained his first season in Miami and was getting bullied insane more. In any case, I definitely wouldn't call Bosh a better rebounder than LA Gasol. Their numbers were pretty close, but I have to believe some of that can be attributed to playing next to Bargnani as opposed to Bynum/Gasol. And Bosh has been a weak rebounder since coming to Miami. Part of that can be attributed to Spoelstra's defensive schemes, Bosh's increased activity at that end vs his Toronto days and being more of a jump shooter offensively. Even considering those things, he's still looked like a mediocre rebounder to me in Miami.

As for scoring, Bosh may score about 3 more ppg, but I don't think it's any more valuable since Bosh's strength was his face up game and jump shot, while Gasol had the great post game which I think is a big part of what made him so valuable. And then when you factor in his passing, I'd call him a better offensive player than Bosh.

Amare is clearly capable of scoring more, but is an Amare 25 ppg more valuable than a Gasol 20 ppg? An Amare 25 is exactly what it sounds like. Just a scorer putting up points, which is of course valuable when you can put up that many, but it isn't really making anyone else better. And while I really liked how Amare played his first season in NY, in fact, I thought his play pre-Melo was possibly the best all around ball I've seen him play, but not only did that efficiency come down to earth(50-51 FG% as opposed to 56-57% and 57 TS% as opposed to 62-63 TS%), but he also became turnover prone with 3.2 TO per game for the season and 3.5 before the Melo trade.

I think Pau is a slightly better player then both, but it's funny how winning changes perceptions.

Honestly, I think in this case it's appropriate because of how important Gasol was to the Lakers' success and because I personally believe he's a more valuable player to a true contender than either of those 2.

I don't see any of them being the best player on a legit contender while averaging 25+ and if Amare is in a reduced scoring role, you're taking away from the one area he really made an impact in.

I'll take brand over all 3

I don't necessarily disagree as far as peak vs peak. Only statement I made as far as that goes is that I think Pau was a better fit for the '08-'10 Lakers.

[CaliBullsFan]

I don't think citing a season were he got swept out of the playoffs is making Pau's case

The Clippers would of gotten swept by the Mavs too. Brand wasn't even better than Pau before Pau's prime.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't think citing a season were he got swept out of the playoffs is making Pau's case

In fairness, they played a Mavs team that won 60 games and was a quarter away from pretty much locking up the championship led by prime/peak Dirk. And if you look at it game by game, it's not surprising in the least. First 2 games were in Dallas so virtually nobody would expect Memphis to take one. In game 1, they lost by 10 and Gasol had 24/7/4/2, but Dirk had 31/11/3, Terry had 20 and Dallas had 5 double digit scorers to 4 for the Grizzlies. Plus, Gasol was reportedly struggling with a foot injury, though his 13 point 3rd quarter made the game close before Dallas extended the lead in the 4th.

In game 2, they lost by 15 and were down 20 entering the 4th with Gasol putting up 16/7/5/2 while Dirk had 31 again and both had 2 teammates score double figures, but Dirk had Josh Howard put up 17 and Terry put up 16/6/9 while Gasol only had Bobby Jackson score 12 and Eddie Jones score 11.

In game 3, they went back home and lost by 5 in OT. Admittedly, Gasol played poorly and had just 16/7/3 on 6/17 shooting while Memphis had 6 double digit scorers led by Chucky Atkins who had 20, while Dallas had 4. But while Memphis should have won this game and Gasol's poor play can be pointed to, it was also a case of a great player in Dirk just taking over. He had 36/9/5 plus the 3 that sent the game to OT and 6 points in OT while Terry provided support with 22/4/4 and Howard had 16.

Game 4 was really a formality and Dallas won by 26 while Gasol had 25/6 with just one teammate who reached double figures and that was Mike Miller who had 10 on 4/11 shooting. Dallas had four players reach double figures including Dirk who had 27/7/3 in just 35 minutes, Josh Howard who had 24/9 and Stackhouse who had 19 points and 5 assists in 27 minutes off the bench.

That series was a contender led by a top 5 player who certainly played by vs a merely good team led by maybe a top 15-20 player so how much do you expect? Maybe one win, and how much better is losing in 5 than getting swept? Plus, despite Pau's poor game 3, they get that one win if not for a Dirk 3, and the other games, Dallas had double digit wins with Pau playing fairly well.

All this aside, Brand was obviously better than Gasol in '06, I just don't view getting swept by a 60 win championship-caliber team with prime/peak Dirk taking over means much. But the difference in playoff fortunes at least had something to do with their competition. Not only were the Nuggets nowhere near as good as the Mavs, but the Clippers' second round opponent the Suns were clearly inferior to the Mavs as well. Honestly, it's a bad format considering Memphis won 2 more games than the Clippers did.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Gasol's playoff record with the Grizzilies was also embarrassing, going like 0-12 in his first twelve games.

I really, really, really hate this argument.
Pau was not a 1st Tier star like a Jordan or Shaq nor was he a 2nd Tier star like a Kobe or a Wade.
He was a 3rd or 4th Tier level star.
He was still an incredible player obviously and an All-Star caliber guy but let us not hold him to unfair standards.

Now... you put a 3rd or 4th Tier star on a weak team and put him up against the ultra stacked SSOL Suns at their Peak, the Duncan led Spurs who were at or near their Peak as a team and the Prime/Peak Dirk led Mavericks and what do you expect to happen?

Pau played pretty decently in those 3 series but he had weak casts and simply wasn't in a reasonable position to win any of those games.
Him getting swept in those series was not a disappointment on his part and was certainly not embarrassing as you put it.
Even if you replaced Pau with a higher Tier level star like a Prime Kobe I still don't see those Grizz teams winning more then 2-3 games overall in those (3) combined series.

Pau leading those overrated Memphis casts into the playoffs in the West was already a great accomplishment on his part and probably an overachievement.
Dissing him for not getting playoff wins against incredibly strong teams (two of which made the Finals) is pretty silly especially considering he didn't have good casts himself.

Pau was a great player who was very consistent, hard to stop and had few flaws but he didn't have the type of impact where he could have led those weak Grizz teams to playoff wins against the teams he faced and really only some of the best players ever could have and none of them (not even Jordan) would have actually been able to advance.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I really don't see it, Brand was an ok player but you're pretty much cherry picking a season and reading too much into it out of context.

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using Tapatalk

[CaliBullsFan]

All this aside, Brand was obviously better than Gasol in '06, I just don't view getting swept by a 60 win championship-caliber team with prime/peak Dirk taking over means much. But the difference in playoff fortunes at least had something to do with their competition. Not only were the Nuggets nowhere near as good as the Mavs, but the Clippers' second round opponent the Suns were clearly inferior to the Mavs as well. Honestly, it's a bad format considering Memphis won 2 more games than the Clippers did.

How was Brand better Pau lead a less talented team to a better record, not to mention Pau played in one of the toughest divisions ever

[BmanInBigD]

All this aside, Brand was obviously better than Gasol in '06, I just don't view getting swept by a 60 win championship-caliber team with prime/peak Dirk taking over means much. But the difference in playoff fortunes at least had something to do with their competition. Not only were the Nuggets nowhere near as good as the Mavs, but the Clippers' second round opponent the Suns were clearly inferior to the Mavs as well. Honestly, it's a bad format considering Memphis won 2 more games than the Clippers did.

How was Brand better Pau lead a less talented team to a better record, not to mention Pau played in one of the toughest divisions ever

This is silly talk. He was better because HE DID MORE ON THE BASKETBALL COURT. Less talented team, better record, blah, blah....way to use subjectivity when the facts don't support your case.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How was Brand better Pau lead a less talented team to a better record, not to mention Pau played in one of the toughest divisions ever

Brand was better than Gasol that year because he was a better scorer, defender and rebounder. I think you're overreacting to their record since Memphis had won 45 games the previous year with Pau only playing 56 games and 32 mpg. In fact, the '05 Grizzlies were only 28-28 with him, but 17-9 without him. Granted, their were a lot roster changes between the 2 years with Memphis trading Jason Williams and James Posey for Eddie Jones as well as trading Bonzi Wells for Bobby Jackson while signing Damon Stoudamire in the offseason and Chucky Atkins during the '06 season who played 27 and 43 games for them, respectively. But what both teams have in common is that they won with their defense. The '05 Grizzlies were top 5 in defensive rating and the '06 Grizzlies were top 2. Pau does deserve credit for making Memphis an average offensive team with his regulars throughout the year being Shane Battier, 34 year old Eddie Jones, Mike Miller, Bobby Jackson(who shot 38.2% that season) and Lorenzen Wright with 27 games of Damon Stoudamire and 43 of Chucky Atkins. Not great offensive talent, though Memphis did surround Gasol with good 3 point shooting.

But you seemed to completely overlook how good Memphis was defensively when looking at the support the two players had and their record. Brand's team was good, but not extremely talented or anything. His regulars throughout the year were 36 year old Sam Cassell, Cuttino Mobley, Chris Kaman, Shaun Livingston(who was 20 in his second year out of high school and still learning) and Quinton Ross with Corey Maggette limited to 32 games due to injury and Vladimir Radmanovic acquired in February. Cassell did have one final good season for the Clippers and was credited by a number of people for playing a significant part in their improvement, but this team wasn't loaded up and down or anything.

I don't see how division really factored in to win/loss record since with the exception of 1 fewer game vs the Hornets(who were 18-64) and one fewer game vs the Spurs, the Clippers had to play the teams in that division as much as the Clippers did. Division is more relevant to bring up when discussing their playoff fortunes. With that said, I wouldn't overrate Brand's playoff run too much. He looked unstoppable vs Phoenix, but Phoenix had virtually no size since. The only Suns over 6'5" who played more than 20 mpg that series were Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw and Tim Thomas. And the only other Sun over 6'5" who even played 15+ mpg that series was James Jones.

[CaliBullsFan]

How was Brand better Pau lead a less talented team to a better record, not to mention Pau played in one of the toughest divisions ever

Brand was better than Gasol that year because he was a better scorer, defender and rebounder. .

The only thing Brand has on Gasol is offensive rebounding

[BmanInBigD]

How was Brand better Pau lead a less talented team to a better record, not to mention Pau played in one of the toughest divisions ever

Brand was better than Gasol that year because he was a better scorer, defender and rebounder. .

The only thing Brand has on Gasol is offensive rebounding

Well, that and scoring more on better TS%, Total rebounding, not turning the ball over, all leading to many more WS/48. But I'm sure you can name SOMETHING that Pau was better at that year.

[RayBan-Sematra]

Brand's team was good, but not extremely talented or anything.

I think Brand had a significantly better cast.
Gasol's team really lacked offensive firepower & rebounding.

Look what Brand had in the playoffs.
Cassell = 18 / 6apg
Maggette = 15 / 8rpg
Mobely = 13 / 5 / 2
Young Kaman = 11 / 8
Radman = 8 / 4

Cassell still had some left in the tank as did Mobely and Maggette + Kaman were both very talented young guys.

Now let us look at what Gasol had.
Jones = 10 / 2.5apg
Atkins = 10 / 3apg
Miller = 8.5 / 1.8apg
Jackson = 8.3 / 1.3apg
Battier = 6 / 6rpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Brand had a significantly better cast.
Gasol's team really lacked offensive firepower & rebounding.

Look what Brand had in the playoffs.
Cassell = 18 / 6apg
Maggette = 15 / 8rpg
Mobely = 13 / 5 / 2
Young Kaman = 11 / 8
Radman = 8 / 4

Cassell still had some left in the tank as did Mobely and Maggette + Kaman were both very talented young guys.

Now let us look at what Gasol had.
Jones = 10 / 2.5apg
Atkins = 10 / 3apg
Miller = 8.5 / 1.8apg
Jackson = 8.3 / 1.3apg
Battier = 6 / 6rpg

I was referring to the point about Gasol winning more during the regular season so I was talking about the regular season during which time Maggette missed more than half the season. Beyond the names on paper, it has to be considered that Memphis was second in defensive rating, 5th in 3s made and 8th in 3P%. Brand's Clippers were 8th in defensive rating, dead last in 3s made and just 21st in 3P% as Memphis outshot them 37.4% to 34.4% on 3s for the season.