MVP discussion thread

[SideshowBob]

Lebron on the season

Code: Select all

MP    PTS    TRB    AST    STL    BLK    TOV   TS%    eFG%   GmSc
36.5  27.0   5.6    6.9    0.7    0.2    4.0  .694   .661    21.8

Miami's offense is just under +10 right now. In all likelihood, Lebron's going to have a very strong case for best offensive season of all time this year.

Where would you rank his second half of last year?

I don't think there's that much separation between him as a player in the first or second half last season, Miami as a whole just started playing a little differently and using Lebron a little differently within the offense in the second half.

If we're limiting it to one season per player, I'd rank 2013 James 5th (very slightly behind the best of Jordan/Nash and behind the best of Bird/Johnson). But they've got multiple seasons on that level and Lebron's got 1. But its looking like he's now got one that might rank ahead of any of them.

If I break it down in terms of offensive SRS (for now, just think of it as an arbitrary scale that's being used for relative comparison):

87 Magic +8.0
86/88 Bird +7.5
90-92 Jordan +7.0
05-07 Nash +7.0
13 James +7.0

Bird's 88 Regular Season is ridiculous, but he struggled in the postseason. If the RS were the only representation of him as a player, then I'd take that on par with 87 Magic.

Paul's making a case for this territory as well IMO. He's been a bit more aggressive this year, is getting to the line even more frequently per FGA than his monster 09 season, and the Clippers' offense is blazing right now, despite tonight's loss, powered his ability to endlessly create efficient opportunities and his ball-dominance driving down TOV% (as well as strong offensive rebounding). They're running a 117 ORTG with him on the floor thus far.

[LBJ-ITALY]

Durantula with his usual 15-20 ft per game will win it this year!
Thanks referees!

[kingkirk]

Durantula with his usual 15-20 ft per game will win it this year!
Thanks referees!

If you or others are not going to contribute anything positive in future and continue to post one liners like this, i will consider it baiting going forward.

[parapooper]

The FTA gap is a legit point. LeBron is way more efficient than Durant from the field now and Durant is way more efficient at FTs. Yet despite that players decided to foul Durant twice as often as LeBron? That makes zero sense.

Durant shoots 88% FTs. Even if you let him shoot his usual shots completely unguarded in an empty gym he would have trouble scoring that efficiently from the field. Then why foul him?
LeBron on the other hand would easily score more efficiently than his FT% from the field if unguarded. Then why not foul him?

A guy like Dwight who shoots 50% FTs and 60% FGs should be fouled on every shot attempt. Opposing coaches should be angry if he has a single FGA in his stat line. A guy like Durant should never be fouled unless you slap his hand on a layup half a foot from the basket. LeBron is much closer to Dwight in "foulability".

LeBron's FT% is just 10% above his eFG%, while Durant's FT% is 40% above his eFG%, yet Durant gets fouled twice as often as LeBron, when logically it would make more sense to foul LeBron 10x as often as Durant.
Why is that?

[aoik]

LeBron's FT% is just 10% above his eFG%, while Durant's FT% is 40% above his eFG%, yet Durant gets fouled twice as often as LeBron, when logically it would make more sense to foul LeBron 10x as often as Durant.
Why is that?

Isn't it obvious?
Durant knows what you said. He goes out to get fouled. Once you know how to trap people and you know you are good at FT, then you will use this.
That is why LeBron is on another lever than Durant.
LeBron has always been fighting and is a warrior. If LeBron has a bad day, then you will not see him using such tricks. He tries to play more at the defensive end and starts playing as a point guard.
But once Durant sees that he has a bad day, he does not play for the team like LeBron, he plays for himself, trying to get fouled so he doesn't look so bad.

Most Valuable Player: LeBron.
There is no one like himself. Not even close. Top ten of all time easily.
He is so great, tries to defend, tries to play for the team, tries to assist, everything what you want. A true basketballer with insane skills.

[bondom34]

Really good stuff, hoops has brought back my inner math geek, I love this stuff and am a KD fan, but like advanced stats a lot more now that I've started following the NBA more!

Agreed.

So far though, this thread has been quality to date. Good discussion happening from both Lebron & Durant fans, even those who have no say in the race.

Last season, this thread was shocking, but off to a good start thus far.

It always helps when quality users are posting in it. A threads quality is always better when the likes of Doctor MJ, Sideshow & mopper stop by to add to the quality discussion being had by all.

Keep it up, lads.

Agreed, I'm not gonna lie. I have every expectation for Lebron to win it again with the only real obstacle to him being voter fatigue. I just now have gotten around to checking numbers on Lebron (haven't watched Miami much this year, just national tv games), and he's quietly better than KD, which is bizarre.

[parapooper]

LeBron's FT% is just 10% above his eFG%, while Durant's FT% is 40% above his eFG%, yet Durant gets fouled twice as often as LeBron, when logically it would make more sense to foul LeBron 10x as often as Durant.
Why is that?

Isn't it obvious?
Durant knows what you said. He goes out to get fouled. Once you know how to trap people and you know you are good at FT, then you will use this.
That is why LeBron is on another lever than Durant.
LeBron has always been fighting and is a warrior. If LeBron has a bad day, then you will not see him using such tricks. He tries to play more at the defensive end and starts playing as a point guard.
But once Durant sees that he has a bad day, he does not play for the team like LeBron, he plays for himself, trying to get fouled so he doesn't look so bad.

Most Valuable Player: LeBron.
There is no one like himself. Not even close. Top ten of all time easily.
He is so great, tries to defend, tries to play for the team, tries to assist, everything what you want. A true basketballer with insane skills.

Well, Durant trying to score that way is maybe a morally grey area but it certainly is valuable to his team. I wonder why flopping is considered so reprehensible yet "being good at getting FTs" is considered a skill to be admired.
For me the annoying part is that it is even possible to decide to score that way. FTs should be a punishment for fouls that are intentionally committed by the defense to keep a player from scoring, not an alternate way of scoring for offensive players that is obtainable even if the defense has no intention of fouling. Why don't they change the rules on this nonsense? It would make the sport much more appealing and relatable as well.

I have nothing against Durant, he seems to be a good guy, has had MVP worthy seasons and he may well deserve the MVP at the end of this season but to me it's really annoying to see one of the best FT shooters in the game getting "fouled" 15 x a game - it's just stupid. And who wants to watch that?
So personally I hope that MVP voters will not encourage this brand of "efficiency" even if it is extremely valuable for the team.

[mopper8]

LeBron's FT% is just 10% above his eFG%, while Durant's FT% is 40% above his eFG%, yet Durant gets fouled twice as often as LeBron, when logically it would make more sense to foul LeBron 10x as often as Durant.
Why is that?

Isn't it obvious?
Durant knows what you said. He goes out to get fouled. Once you know how to trap people and you know you are good at FT, then you will use this.
That is why LeBron is on another lever than Durant.
LeBron has always been fighting and is a warrior. If LeBron has a bad day, then you will not see him using such tricks. He tries to play more at the defensive end and starts playing as a point guard.
But once Durant sees that he has a bad day, he does not play for the team like LeBron, he plays for himself, trying to get fouled so he doesn't look so bad.

Most Valuable Player: LeBron.
There is no one like himself. Not even close. Top ten of all time easily.
He is so great, tries to defend, tries to play for the team, tries to assist, everything what you want. A true basketballer with insane skills.

Well, Durant trying to score that way is maybe a morally grey area but it certainly is valuable to his team. I wonder why flopping is considered so reprehensible yet "being good at getting FTs" is considered a skill to be admired.
For me the annoying part is that it is even possible to decide to score that way. FTs should be a punishment for fouls that are intentionally committed by the defense to keep a player from scoring, not an alternate way of scoring for offensive players that is obtainable even if the defense has no intention of fouling. Why don't they change the rules on this nonsense? It would make the sport much more appealing and relatable as well.

I have nothing against Durant, he seems to be a good guy, has had MVP worthy seasons and he may well deserve the MVP at the end of this season but to me it's really annoying to see one of the best FT shooters in the game getting "fouled" 15 x a game - it's just stupid. And who wants to watch that?
So personally I hope that MVP voters will not encourage this brand of "efficiency" even if it is extremely valuable for the team.

I would quibble with the idea that fouls should only be when the defense intends to foul...if the defense intends to draw a charge but is late and instead blocks, it's a foul. But I get what you're saying, in general I think we're uncomfortable with the idea of the offensive player looking for a foul rather than looking for a bucket. Not sure how you write the rules to capture that unfortunately.

[SideshowBob]

To those who say LeBron's just capitalizing on open shots: may want to check out the insane SportVU data in here. http://t.co/TKVDQW4DPA

LeBron James has a higher shooting percentage when his shot is contested.

Just when we thought LeBron James couldn't possibly take his game to the next level, he raises the bar even higher. At the Miami Heat's media day before the season, James confidently declared that he improved his game during the offseason. This, after falling one vote shy of becoming the first unanimous MVP in NBA history.

"I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this," James told the room of reporters, "but I got better."

Ten games in, it's hard to disagree.

After shooting a career-high 56.5 percent last season, James has toyed with opponents in the early going, making a ridiculous 62.2 percent of his shots from the floor. For someone who shoots as often as he does, his conversion rate is almost unfair. Consider this: Of the 18 players who have fired at least as many field goal attempts as James has this season, only one has even shot more than 50 percent (Blake Griffin, 57.2 percent).

Actually, James could go 0-for-40 against the Atlanta Hawks on Tuesday night, and he still would be shooting at least 50 percent. That's how efficient he has been. Which brings us to our next question: Is this the hottest shooting start we've ever seen?

[xMADEinDADEx]

Eff that on 2k I'm shooting 26 percent on the season. I'd settle on Rudy gay levels right now.

Lol what difficulty?


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[NBA4EVA2010]

Current top 10 in scoring (excluding FT's):


1. Lebron James - 21.9ppg
2. Kevin Love - 20.1ppg
3. Carmelo Anthony - 20.1ppg
4. Lamarcus Aldridge - 19.6ppg
5. Blake Griffin - 18.9ppg
5. Klay Thompson - 18.9ppg
7. Kevin Martin - 18.3ppg
7. Paul George - 18.3ppg
7. Kevin Durant - 18.3ppg
10. Bradley Beal - 18.1ppg

[aoik]

For me the annoying part is that it is even possible to decide to score that way. FTs should be a punishment for fouls that are intentionally committed by the defense to keep a player from scoring, not an alternate way of scoring for offensive players that is obtainable even if the defense has no intention of fouling. Why don't they change the rules on this nonsense? It would make the sport much more appealing and relatable as well.

That is what I talk about. This is it.
That is why we should keep in mind that stats are not everything.
Even if you are efficient, a fighting warrior between hordes of players in an area is way more impressive than a marksman from distant. Because the danger you are in is different and this is why it is God like when game after game LeBron survives brilliantly these hordes.

[King_John]

Current top 10 in scoring (excluding FT's):


1. Lebron James - 21.9ppg
2. Kevin Love - 20.1ppg
3. Carmelo Anthony - 20.1ppg
4. Lamarcus Aldridge - 19.6ppg
5. Blake Griffin - 18.9ppg
5. Klay Thompson - 18.9ppg
7. Kevin Martin - 18.3ppg
7. Paul George - 18.3ppg
7. Kevin Durant - 18.3ppg
10. Bradley Beal - 18.1ppg

wow it s pretty remarkable that Durant is only 7th on that list...

[Pacerlive]

To those who say LeBron's just capitalizing on open shots: may want to check out the insane SportVU data in here. http://t.co/TKVDQW4DPA

LeBron James has a higher shooting percentage when his shot is contested.

Just when we thought LeBron James couldn't possibly take his game to the next level, he raises the bar even higher. At the Miami Heat's media day before the season, James confidently declared that he improved his game during the offseason. This, after falling one vote shy of becoming the first unanimous MVP in NBA history.

"I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this," James told the room of reporters, "but I got better."

Ten games in, it's hard to disagree.

After shooting a career-high 56.5 percent last season, James has toyed with opponents in the early going, making a ridiculous 62.2 percent of his shots from the floor. For someone who shoots as often as he does, his conversion rate is almost unfair. Consider this: Of the 18 players who have fired at least as many field goal attempts as James has this season, only one has even shot more than 50 percent (Blake Griffin, 57.2 percent).

Actually, James could go 0-for-40 against the Atlanta Hawks on Tuesday night, and he still would be shooting at least 50 percent. That's how efficient he has been. Which brings us to our next question: Is this the hottest shooting start we've ever seen?

This is because he shoots closer to the basket which is a higher percentage shot. That's not surprising given his position and strength.

[LBJ-ITALY]

Current top 10 in scoring (excluding FT's):


1. Lebron James - 21.9ppg
2. Kevin Love - 20.1ppg
3. Carmelo Anthony - 20.1ppg
4. Lamarcus Aldridge - 19.6ppg
5. Blake Griffin - 18.9ppg
5. Klay Thompson - 18.9ppg
7. Kevin Martin - 18.3ppg
7. Paul George - 18.3ppg
7. Kevin Durant - 18.3ppg
10. Bradley Beal - 18.1ppg

[mopper8]

To those who say LeBron's just capitalizing on open shots: may want to check out the insane SportVU data in here. http://t.co/TKVDQW4DPA

LeBron James has a higher shooting percentage when his shot is contested.

Just when we thought LeBron James couldn't possibly take his game to the next level, he raises the bar even higher. At the Miami Heat's media day before the season, James confidently declared that he improved his game during the offseason. This, after falling one vote shy of becoming the first unanimous MVP in NBA history.

"I know you guys are tired of hearing me say this," James told the room of reporters, "but I got better."

Ten games in, it's hard to disagree.

After shooting a career-high 56.5 percent last season, James has toyed with opponents in the early going, making a ridiculous 62.2 percent of his shots from the floor. For someone who shoots as often as he does, his conversion rate is almost unfair. Consider this: Of the 18 players who have fired at least as many field goal attempts as James has this season, only one has even shot more than 50 percent (Blake Griffin, 57.2 percent).

Actually, James could go 0-for-40 against the Atlanta Hawks on Tuesday night, and he still would be shooting at least 50 percent. That's how efficient he has been. Which brings us to our next question: Is this the hottest shooting start we've ever seen?

This is because he shoots closer to the basket which is a higher percentage shot. That's not surprising given his position and strength.

He is shooting 52% on 3s, taking 3 a game.

Also, your standards are probably a little off if "most efficient volume scorer of all-time and it's not even close" is "not surprising." 70 TS% is insane.

[xMADEinDADEx]

Damn crazy about durant.


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[JulesWinnfield]

Looks like a rough loss tonight for the Wolves in Washington barring a miracle, down by 4 with 6 sec left. Led by as much as 16. Love with 25 pts 11 rebs 4 ast on 8 for 16 shooting

Nothing against Kevin Love, but no matter what his numbers are the Wolves just aren't going to win enough games to make him a legit MVP candidate. In the last 30 years, no one has won an MVP with fewer than 50 wins (discounting the two lockout shortened years). And only one guy won it with fewer than 54 (MJ in 88). We don't live in a 1976 climate where Kareem can win an MVP with a .500 ish record. The Wolves at best are going to be at the backend of the west playoff picture

You can consider that fair or unfair, but with the way the voting has gone for a few decades now you need to meet a certain win floor, one i don't think they can reach

[Kilroy]

Is it me, or are the individual performances down this season? Durant's gotten his a few times but not like seasons past...
Could it have something to do with Kobe being out and not instigating the 40+pt games out of the other big guys?

Or are guys just trying to be more complete? It seems like it's kinda been a sleeper so far this season as far as Star-Power goes.

[R U Legit]

Could it have something to do with Kobe being out and not instigating the 40+pt games out of the other big guys?

Is this actually a thing? Like, when Kobe goes off, do other players around the league also have good games?