Should Billy King be fired?

[Trader_Joe]

Funny how no one was complaining about the Deron trade 2 years ago when we got him and now he's a massive overpay. I'm a big time Deron "hater" but that trade is what got us in the right direction and what was needed to get a team to move a franchise PG that was considered second only to Chris Paul.

I don't even think it was an overpay.

Harris was and always will be mediocre at best.. I was NEVER a fan of his even when he was an AS. I was campaigning for us to trade him when his value was at an all time high for Rondo back then and Net fans laughed at me saying Harris was better. There was a reason we almost dumped him for an expiring injured Butler.

The GS pick was a protected pick and I always thought it would turn out to be nothing special.. and it won't be.

So really it was Kanter and Favors for D.Williams and no bad contracts.
I do that trade over and am not exactly a D.Will fan.

[vincecarter4pres]

Again, I think you're missing the point.

Would I do the trade again? Yes. I don't have any real problem with it. I loved it at the time even though I immediately realized it was an enormous haul.

I just can't stand when people say we ripped them off, or the Knix package was better, or that our package was a bunch of crap.

And I HATE when people bring up Kanter specifically, no matter what he turns into. We shipped them our own pick unprotected, wound up with the 6xth worse and jumped to 3rd overall. What Utah did with that pick is of no true concern.

Alright, like I said this is one of the topics that gets me a little worked up, I'm tapping out.

[jeff1624]

Actually there were people saying we overpaid at the time of the trade. VC4P for one said so immediately after the trade even though he was stoked about acquiring Deron.

[vincecarter4pres]

Actually there were people saying we overpaid at the time of the trade. VC4P for one said so immediately after the trade even though he was stoked about acquiring Deron.

Haha just mentioned that. Thanks for remembering!

[deepblueday]

our package was not a bunch of crap. it also wasn't some obscene overpay. i dont give a **** about sugarcoatiing what we gave up, or pretending we got a steal, but neither do i think we were in any position to go anywhere with the pieces we ended up moving, or that we could have realistically expected to hold out on favors, devin, or the lotto pick in a move for deron williams. of course devin had to be in the package and a mid level prospect in favors was not enough. could we have maybe held on the warriors first? sure. but to the extent that there was an overpay, that was it.

do you guys really not think eric gordon, a proven, productive, superstar prospect, a guy with 25 and 5 potential who plays on both ends, even with his injury history, **** all over anything we gave up? eric gordon is the player franchises try for years on end to acquire. many drafts dont even have one. the past two years have had one. favors, lotto pick in a weak draft do not touch him. plus add a lotto pick.

favors was an extremely raw prospect whose ceiling is elite glue guy level. dwight howard, don't make me laugh, ive always been positive re derrick and his future, but he just doesn't have that kind of talent. it simply isn't there. and i remember pretty conclusively you were never under any delusion he had that kind of talent before he was moved vc4pres. he will never be a player any team even considers building around. and he's still years away from reaching his potential, and by the time he does his rookie deal will be expired. then you add a lotto pick in a weak draft. plus devin and a mid first. is that a good package? absolutely. is it some insane deal disproportionate to other similar moves? not at all. gallinari is an equal prospect to derrick, and the rest of NY's package compares as well. and our deal was not leveraged by a trade demand from the player, as both the paul and melo deals were.

[Jersey Generals]

Listen, I'm not going to reply to anyone specific because there is a lot of NetsDaily thinking that, no matter what I say, will never be overcome, but I will say this:

The last player that wasn't in the top 10/15 (maybe even top 20) players in the NBA to be traded for as many draft assets (number of picks, not necessarily quality) as the amount that Billy King sent to Hawks for Joe Johnson was....the Eddy Curry trade to the Knicks.


Yes, the Eddy Curry trade, the trade where the Bulls basically re-invented the pick swap in order to fleece the Knicks even more and sidestep the Stepien rule. The trade that made basically made the Knicks into a laughing stock for three/four years. Yes, that trade.

[Paradise]

I still don't see anything to regret in the Deron trade aside from the fact he's playing like ass. Favors has done what exactly? Devin Harris was hated in Utah, Kanter was selected and the jury is out on him still but he doesn't seem like a dominating type center at this point, the GSW pick is probably the only thing I can say I wouldn't have included.

At the end of the day, billy's job will simply come down to what he does with the coaching position. If he ends up setting with a lame duck coach like Avery again instead of getting a legit name then he will most likely be gone.

Who knew a minor tweak in that JJ trade would turn such an uproar overnight lol

[Hello Brooklyn]

^What's ridiculous is your complete spin job of everything. It's great to have hindsight, but AT THE TIME, those were all super valuable assets. We could have gotten some nice players for each individual asset.

Again, I'm not even mad about the Deron trade, but to not recognize how awesome of a deal Utah got is just delusional.

I get it, you want to believe that the Nets made out like bandits and that everything worked out for the best, but that's just fairy tale BS, and you're just being a blind homer. Most of Billy King's moves have been huge overpays that have pretty much crippled us outside of some potential minor improvements and far-fetched trade ideas. You can say I don't know what's going on in front offices all you want, but a lot of what I've been saying is just common sense.

And I love how you just know exactly what Favors is going to be. Can I have the winning lottery numbers, please?

At the time?

So you're telling me Favors and that lottery pick had more value than Eric Gordon and the Minny pick at the time?

Comon now. Gordon was an excellent young player, he had way more value than Favors. And the Minny pick was just as valuable as ours. We had no idea it would end up going that high. We expected to win more games with Deron anyway who had promised a playoff push.

And the Knicks gave up 4 NBA starters. Gallo was an excellent young player to give up and Felton was coming off of a career year.

Yes I am making a prediction about Favors, am I allowed to do that? IS that ok with you?

I didn't say we made out like bandits at the time. But our deal was completely reasonable and we did not give up "too much."

The Deron Williams trade was a steal in hindsight since you all love to do that with the Wallace trade. We gave up crap.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Again, I think you're missing the point.

Would I do the trade again? Yes. I don't have any real problem with it. I loved it at the time even though I immediately realized it was an enormous haul.

I just can't stand when people say we ripped them off, or the Knix package was better, or that our package was a bunch of crap.

And I HATE when people bring up Kanter specifically, no matter what he turns into. We shipped them our own pick unprotected, wound up with the 6xth worse and jumped to 3rd overall. What Utah did with that pick is of no true concern.

Alright, like I said this is one of the topics that gets me a little worked up, I'm tapping out.

If our package was better than the Knicks deal then why did Denver take their deal over ours?

The Knicks deal was better.

That pick was valuable but it got us DERON WILLIAMS. At the time the second or third best point guard in the NBA and bonafide superstar. How did we not win that?

[vincecarter4pres]

Again, I think you're missing the point.

Would I do the trade again? Yes. I don't have any real problem with it. I loved it at the time even though I immediately realized it was an enormous haul.

I just can't stand when people say we ripped them off, or the Knix package was better, or that our package was a bunch of crap.

And I HATE when people bring up Kanter specifically, no matter what he turns into. We shipped them our own pick unprotected, wound up with the 6xth worse and jumped to 3rd overall. What Utah did with that pick is of no true concern.

Alright, like I said this is one of the topics that gets me a little worked up, I'm tapping out.

If our package was better than the Knicks deal then why did Denver take their deal over ours?

It figures you still believe this schtick.

We didn't get Melo cause Melo wouldn't sign an extension. If you believe otherwise I have a bridge to sell you.

The Knicks deal was better.

Disagree and to me it isn't close at all.

That pick was valuable but it got us DERON WILLIAMS. At the time the second or third best point guard in the NBA and bonafide superstar. How did we not win that?

Where have you ever seen me say we didn't win the trade? It is possible for both sides to win a trade.

When I discuss this I feel like I told someone, hey I bought this awesome certified preowned BMW, but it's really expensive. And then they tell me it wasn't expensive, a BMW is a great car. And I look at them and put my palm to temple.

[vincecarter4pres]

Let me explain the pick swap to those who think, hey it's not big deal!

Look at the Lakers right now. They're almost a lock for the lotto.

Reportedly the Suns own that pick unprotected if they miss the playoffs.

That will basically be us if god forbid the same thing happens to this team in either the 2014 or 2015 season, except we'll get the Hawks pick back.

We took on what was almost unanimously considered the 2nd worst contract in the league for expiring contracts and sent them the Houston 1st round pick to boot, then just for added kicks we gave them 2 years of unprotected pick swaps.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, teams like OKC were getting 2 1st round picks to absorb 2 years of Kurt Thomas at about $6 million a season, the Bulls sent the 17th pick to Washington so they'd take 2 years of Hinrich at about $8 mill a year and Washington sent out Ricky Rubio to dump 2 year deals into semi-useful expirings, just to name a few.

And those were all under the less restrictive prior CBA!

It's all pretty amazing.

[N Ireland Nets]

Right.

Thought I'd bring up this thread again because it's worthy of discussion. Does anyone not understand how stupid King was in regards his trades now?

Some on here honestly believed some of us were going overboard in regards minor things like pick swaps. Right now we could potentially be sending Wiggins/Parker/Randle/Exum to Atlanta.

Expiring contracts, 1st round pick, rights to swap picks this year and next in exchange for one of the worst contracts in the NBA in Johnson. Now with our complete meltdown we might of gifted a superstar to ATL as part of a throw in. It still also grinds my gears this the pick swaps weren't reported anywhere and weren't included on the official trade notes released by Brooklyn. It was as if it was being kept secret almost.

Anyway, can we fire King soon?

[BK nets BK]

No he did what he was told to do. Hiring Jason Kidd was not just his idea. Trading away all thebpicks to try and win now was not just his idea

Sent from my SM-N900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

[N Ireland Nets]

No he did what he was told to do. Hiring Jason Kidd was not just his idea. Trading away all thebpicks to try and win now was not just his idea

Sent from my SM-N900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Ok, so who came up with the trades then?

You think ownership came to king and said trade for Wallace, Johnson, D Will and the Celtics duo?

I’ve been consistent calling out King for moves that I believed were wrong so this isn’t a short term, “omg fire them all” reaction post. Every move King has made trade wise, bar the outstanding Terrence Williams trade where King deserves all the credit in the world, has had huge risk involved and at some point it’s going to bite you.

[*] D Will trade: Traded for a top PG with outstanding assets, for a player with 1 1/2 years left on his deal with a risk of D Will walking, led to the organisation basically being held to ransom and pandering to Williams every move and it could be argued led to the panic Wallace trade to appease D Will

[*] Wallace trade: Traded for an expiring contract with a lottery pick and then due to the price paid to receive Wallace, King had to overpay to keep him, which led onto having to pay out 3 1sts for KG Pierce due to Wallace’s toxic deal having to be included in the trade.

[*] Johnson trade: Gave up expiring contracts, a 1st round pick and right to swap picks in 2014 and 2015 for one of the worst contracts in the NBA which was basically an Atlanta salary dump where the team that wanted to dump salary received the assets.

[*] KG & Pierce trade: The original deal was reported to have been Pierce for Hump, Brooks and a 1st rounder. When KG was added to make salary work Wallace needed to go who was a negative asset from a prior trade made by King and therefore 2 further 1st rounders were needed to complete the deal along with the right to swap picks in 2017 with us.

Until 2019 we do not own our own 1st round pick outright and when you look back at the trades King has made you can now see the risks King took.

So your saying that because ownership told King they don't care how he does it, how much he spends, they want a contender, that it was the Russians fault for the moves we made?

[Paradise]

No he did what he was told to do. Hiring Jason Kidd was not just his idea. Trading away all thebpicks to try and win now was not just his idea

Sent from my SM-N900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

Even if he was told to make moves, that doesn't excuse gifting unprotected picks to Atlanta and Boston. At all.

[NyCeEvO]

I thought BK should've been fired a long time ago, but he's not the root cause of what is going on at the present moment.

From what we know, he actually didn't want to go the Kidd route and it was Proky's group that convinced him to hear Kidd's presentation. If the owner wants you to hear someone out, you better do it.

We all were excited with the prospects of this team and while BK overpaid yet again, we all believed that if we win a championship within the next two years, our draft picks wouldn't amount to much because our ownership will always spend enough to make sure we're not a lottery bound team.

NO ONE thought things would turn out this bad. I don't think we can play any worse than how we're playing right now. Either trades will happen or someone will get fired but we should still make the playoffs at least as a bottom 7 or 8 seed.

We won't be giving away a top-5 pick unless all of the starters get injured. Ownership is not spending all of this money for a bottom-lotto team and they will make all changes necessary to make sure of that.

I think the pecking order of who's responsible is:
1) Kidd and the coaching staff
2) Player decision making
3) Injuries

There's a reason why this thread hasn't been touched since January. King got a contender that we all believed to be a championship caliber team on paper. Even when reporters asked him about whether this was a championship squad, he said the games are won on the court, not on paper. Even though he overpaid, he did his job. He doesn't deserve to be ripped for what's going on right now.

[vincecarter4pres]

We all were excited with the prospects of this team and while BK overpaid yet again, we all believed that if we win a championship within the next two years, our draft picks wouldn't amount to much because our ownership will always spend enough to make sure we're not a lottery bound team.

But this is where the fan to King separation has to occur. As in this is where you have to realize we are the fans who got excited and fairly so, where as King is the actual talent evaluator and should have been taking into account how easily everything could go wrong in this scenario.

NO ONE thought things would turn out this bad. I don't think we can play any worse than how we're playing right now. Either trades will happen or someone will get fired but we should still make the playoffs at least as a bottom 7 or 8 seed.

No one in the Knix organization or really the fans thought they'd be the disaster they were for 10 years either.

And again this is where the disconnect should come in, the problem is it hasn't. The front office is as foolish and homered up as the fan base, even worse then most of our diehards here who recognized how atrocious all these trades BK made were.

And I don't know what trades can happen short of Lopez being panic dealt for a trade we likely cringe at or Terry, Mirza and Plumlee traded for someone who is talented but adds to the problems like a Zbo or Rudy Gay.

We won't be giving away a top-5 pick unless all of the starters get injured. Ownership is not spending all of this money for a bottom-lotto team and they will make all changes necessary to make sure of that.

We're 3 and 9, believing this team is automatically going to bounce back or even just get healthy is a stretch at this point. We can easily go on a run and then play well and win up to around 50 games, but we can just as easily, in fact more easily, stay injured, coaching stay awful, everything chemistry wise still implodes and we wind up with maybe the 5th to 10th worst record in the league.

I think the pecking order of who's responsible is:
1) Kidd and the coaching staff
2) Player decision making
3) Injuries

There's a reason why this thread hasn't been touched since January. King got a contender that we all believed to be a championship caliber team on paper. Even when reporters asked him about whether this was a championship squad, he said the games are won on the court, not on paper. Even though he overpaid, he did his job. He doesn't deserve to be ripped for what's going on right now.

IMHO I'd go:

1. King
2. Kidd
3. Injuries
4. Players
5. Proky's angle of attack

The reason this thread hasn't been touched is simply the same stuff has been brought up in other threads.

How could he possibly not be deserved to be ripped for this train wreck???
I'm baffled by your thinking on all this NyCe.

[BK nets BK]

Its not kings fault that management told him to try and keep dwill at all costs. Its not his fault that our owner wants to rush to a championship. He was forced to make these risky moves.

Sent from my SM-N900V using RealGM Forums mobile app

[CalamityX12]

King has done so much damage to this franchise since day 1....

band-aids don't hold up very well after a long time....

Should've cut ties with him after that Wallace trade.... idiot!

[NyCeEvO]

What I'm seeing is a fusion of "Whether King should be fired for all of his deals that he's done", "whether he's responsible for us being 3-9", and " whether should he be fired for putting us in bad spot with no draft picks for the long term".

I think there are clear and obvious differences for each topic.

Do I think King should be fired for all of his bad deals? Yes, he should've been fired a while ago.
I've ripped on King plenty of times before for his trades.

Are the deals he has done been overpays? Yes of course. In fact, I was one of the few people who called the trade for D-Will an overpay as soon as it happened.

Do I feel he should be fired for mortgaging the future this badly? Oh yeah, of course. It was and still is an extremely foolish thing to do.


But what I'm not responding to is whether King is most responsible for our poor start and for that I'd say no.
Yeah, he should've been fired for his deals in the past and what our future looks like, but if we're solely talking about whether he deserves to be fired for us sucking right now, I don't think so.

We have tons of talent. A lack of talent is not what is causing the problem.

It's a lack of coaching and having a system.

Now, if you want to say that King is more responsible than Kidd because Billy had the final say on his hiring, then yes, I can see that. But what is an important factor for me is that King didn't even want to talk to Kidd but ownership came to BK and said 'hey, take a look at this. It might be good.'

I don't know the relationship that King has with Proky. We can sit here on the outside and think that BK should've just stuck to his guns and said 'no', but even in the interview with Proky during the MIA game, Proky said that he wanted to go with an unconventional approach. We have no idea if ownership's suggestion to BK to take a look at Kidd was merely a suggestion with no attachments or a 'hey, it would be in your best interest to look at Kidd' type of move.

Both King and Proky have said that Proky was the one who presented the idea to King. When your billionaire boss asks you to do something that you've already said 'no' to, you don't think you'd seriously re-think about doing it? Even if it came back to bite you, ownership has to look at themselves and say "hey, we did push for this."

The reason why I'm disagreeing is because the timing of the thread bump really coincides with our current poor play on the court.

This isn't something that been talking about through the summer and fall and therefore I'm looking at this in light of what's going on right now.

I haven't seen people flaming King since draft day and I think it's because we've beat the past and future issues to death so that there's really no need to talk about those anymore. But what's stoking the fire is our present poor play which is reminding us of all the crap he did in the past and how it affects our future.

I definitely agree with you guys about the past and future stuff. The present is the only small area where I share a difference of opinion.