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GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN

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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#221 » by hands11 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:20 pm

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:They also should probably trade Kevin S and Booker for a goon back up center.

There aren't that many goons available!

More seriously -- who is going to trade away a good backup center for Seraphin and Booker? Seraphin has no value whatever. Booker can be part of a trade, but we don't have the other part!!

As I've said before, I don't down-rate Ernie for picking Seraphin; he's just a guy who didn't work out -- it happens. And I don't down-rate him for picking Booker either; he's played quite well when healthy.

But every single move since then, w/ the sole exception of picking Beal #3 in 2012 and the first signing of Webster, has either been awful, or we don't yet know if it'll work out. I do except Ariza from the list, but I'm guessing he was only available if we took Okafor.


There are teams that expect to be better or who are tanking and have cap issues. ala TOR. Boston has some pieces. BRK has sucked and has a 101M team salary. There will be opportunities.

Kevin still has a chance in this league, he just needs more time and right now we need steady play over upside at his slot. And Singleton and Booker are redundant in my book. Both undersized PFs. I think both will float around the league as bench players for at least the next 3-4 years.

Tor didn't even play Field or Gray last night. Not saying those are the moves, but there will be move available.

Did EG blow it by not taking a chance on one of the many centers in this draft. I thought so.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#222 » by kirubel94 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:27 pm

This team badly needs someone who can create their own shot in the second unit. I am convinced that the team could have won 3-5 more games if they managed to sign Nate over Maynor.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#223 » by mhd » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:34 pm

BTW, I'd rather have Yi out there than Seraphin.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#224 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:40 pm

dandridge 10 wrote:Wizards are generally allergic to prosperity. Beal and Nene are due for an off night and of course, we have no bench to pick up the slack. I sense a loss.


pretty accurate prediction

Other than Wall, no starter shot remotely well. And we know our bench isn't going
to step up and carry the starters on an off night.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#225 » by hands11 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:42 pm

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:Gortat should not get 10M next year. He isn't athletic enough. Solid guy. Seems like a great teammate. I really like that he contributed to helping this team finally start running the pick and roll. But just a step away quality wise from being a true starter on a good team. Just not quick enough to reliably protect the paint or finish strong on offense.

He'll have no trouble whatever commanding that kind of money and probably more. You were for the trade; I take it that means you think giving up a mid-first round pick to rent him for one year was a wise move?


Don't be so sure he will have no problem. That was the question I was asking and point out why.

I like Gortat and what I think he adds to the team. I also like Okafor and what he added to the team.

I didnt expect Okafor to be out all that long so the trade was a surprise to me.

When the trade was made, I assumed it was because the team knew something we didn't and I assumed that was that Okafor would be out for the year or at least until late Feb or March. If that is true, I can see why the trade would make sense.

Either way, they should have drafted a center in my book.

Was it worth it. I don't think we have enough information to draw that conclusion yet. Since they keep their pick if they don't make the playoffs and only give away a mid or later first if they do, and Okafor is going to miss a lot of time, it was probably worth the risk. If Okafor is coming back in the next 2 week, probably not.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#226 » by hands11 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:56 pm

kirubel94 wrote:This team badly needs someone who can create their own shot in the second unit. I am convinced that the team could have won 3-5 more games if they managed to sign Nate over Maynor.


Given Randy's rotation, the injured players we have and what bench players are available, oh yeah, a scoring PG would have been better. Even an AJ Price. Crawford would also have helped.

But you design a roster for a year. They expect to have Trevor A and Otto back and someone needs to get them the ball in position to shoot. Don't take that as I'm excited about Maynor. They screwed this up on many fronts.

http://bkref.com/tiny/pU0u6

Separately, they do need more players who can handle the ball better. Over all team dribbling and dribble/drive skills are low. Even when you add Trevor A and Porter back that is still true.

All they needed to do was keep Crawford. He can handle the ball, and back up PG, and score, and drive. All the things they are missing off the bench.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#227 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:58 pm

dlts20 wrote:we need one more hot guy. Beal or Nene, or Gortat, or Web. We wont win without someone catching fire


And all 3 of those guys finished the game with lousy shooting %.
Webster too although he didn't get many attempts.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#228 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:04 pm

nate33 wrote:With Ariza healthy, our bench isn't awful because we effectively have 6 starters. One of the "starters" can come off the bench for 32 minutes a game and do the work of two 16-minute subs. Then we hope some combination of Temple, Vesely, Harrington and Booker can at least hold their own against the 8th, 9th and 10th best players from the other team.

But with Ariza out, our bench turns to crap. It's like losing two high quality subs at once.

For clarification, I'm not blaming injuries. EG should be fired for putting together a team that really has only 6 players.


and maybe if OP ever plays, even though he is somewhat redundant (same position as TA),
he would be a better choice (most likely) than the rest of our awful bench.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#229 » by nate33 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:21 pm

dobrojim wrote:
nate33 wrote:With Ariza healthy, our bench isn't awful because we effectively have 6 starters. One of the "starters" can come off the bench for 32 minutes a game and do the work of two 16-minute subs. Then we hope some combination of Temple, Vesely, Harrington and Booker can at least hold their own against the 8th, 9th and 10th best players from the other team.

But with Ariza out, our bench turns to crap. It's like losing two high quality subs at once.

For clarification, I'm not blaming injuries. EG should be fired for putting together a team that really has only 6 players.


and maybe if OP ever plays, even though he is somewhat redundant (same position as TA),
he would be a better choice (most likely) than the rest of our awful bench.

It's generally a pretty bad idea to rely upon a 20-year-old rookie to be a quality player.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#230 » by mhd » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:22 pm

nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:
nate33 wrote:With Ariza healthy, our bench isn't awful because we effectively have 6 starters. One of the "starters" can come off the bench for 32 minutes a game and do the work of two 16-minute subs. Then we hope some combination of Temple, Vesely, Harrington and Booker can at least hold their own against the 8th, 9th and 10th best players from the other team.

But with Ariza out, our bench turns to crap. It's like losing two high quality subs at once.

For clarification, I'm not blaming injuries. EG should be fired for putting together a team that really has only 6 players.


and maybe if OP ever plays, even though he is somewhat redundant (same position as TA),
he would be a better choice (most likely) than the rest of our awful bench.

It's generally a pretty bad idea to rely upon a 20-year-old rookie to be a quality player.



He can't be worse than Maynor.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#231 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:23 pm

We may do a little better later in the season with a bench of:

Ves (poor game tonight but trending better)
2 from OP/TA/Booker (the forwards should be our strongest bench positions)
GR (may begin to look better at such time as he starts getting more burn)
Temple (not exactly an ideal PG but if it keeps Maynor on the bench, there is some value in that)

if we never see Kevin and Maynor again, things will almost certainly go better than they have.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#232 » by dobrojim » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:26 pm

nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:
nate33 wrote:With Ariza healthy, our bench isn't awful because we effectively have 6 starters. One of the "starters" can come off the bench for 32 minutes a game and do the work of two 16-minute subs. Then we hope some combination of Temple, Vesely, Harrington and Booker can at least hold their own against the 8th, 9th and 10th best players from the other team.

But with Ariza out, our bench turns to crap. It's like losing two high quality subs at once.

For clarification, I'm not blaming injuries. EG should be fired for putting together a team that really has only 6 players.


and maybe if OP ever plays, even though he is somewhat redundant (same position as TA),
he would be a better choice (most likely) than the rest of our awful bench.

It's generally a pretty bad idea to rely upon a 20-year-old rookie to be a quality player.


He would be a major bust if he couldn't outplay anyone on the bench not named Ariza.
And just for the sake of player development, when healthy, he'll need to at least get
some spot minutes so he can begin to acclimate to the NBA game.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#233 » by jivelikenice » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:04 pm

Wall was outstanding. He played with good pace and more importantly he took over as needed versus trying to force the issue. The team was struggling and he showed the ability to lift them up when nothing else was really working. What I liked most is that while he was playing at a high level, he still makes the right pass when it presents itself. His assist totals would have been much higher had Néne/Beal been on their game.

Randy...I know he's limited by the bench but did he really have o take Wall out during his 3rd quarter run?! He ices his own guys! He did that versus Philly in the home opener also.

Beal is young and I have nothing but confidence in his future, but he has to stop with some of the long 2s and also drive more....he's been playing well but preseason Beal got to his spots and he had a good balance of 3s, aggressive midrange, and taking it to the basket some....
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#234 » by payitforward » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:05 pm

fishercob wrote:PIF, do you enjoy basketball? You're a very good writer, so I'd love to read your descriptions of what it is you like about the game.

It seems as if you're incapable or uninterested in posting about anything other than Ernie Grunfeld being a bad GM. I don't think most here would argue with you on this. And yet, I don't think I've ever read a post of yours having to do with just basketball.

We get it. Ernie sucks and you like WS/40. What else?

I post all the time about players I like and/or don't like -- but you are right that I probably post too much about Ernie, and in particular I posted too many in a row this morning. Out of frustration w/ what I saw last night.

Basketball is two different kinds of things at least: it's entertainment and it's competition. Mostly our focus here is on why we are so bad and how can we get better, so that's competition and mostly what I post about. As to entertainment, the NBA is the highest level of basketball in the world, so any game you watch can and should be entertaining (even blowouts are in some sense fun to watch...).

Of course, if you have a good team, one that's competitive night in night out and wins a good number of games, that increases the entertainment too (it's not entertaining to lose 55-60 games every year).
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#235 » by payitforward » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:12 pm

hands11 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:Gortat should not get 10M next year.....

He'll have no trouble whatever commanding that kind of money and probably more...

Don't be so sure he will have no problem....

...Either way, they should have drafted a center in my book....

On the former, I'd be happy to put money on it. Give you 2-1 odds as well (barring injury of course). But, hey, I could be wrong. Anyway, this is just about how teams spend $$.

On the latter -- we are in complete agreement. By way of draft if possible, either in 2013 or the previous year, but w/o question we needed and still need a quality, young big on the roster.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#236 » by hands11 » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:08 pm

payitforward wrote:
hands11 wrote:
payitforward wrote:He'll have no trouble whatever commanding that kind of money and probably more...

Don't be so sure he will have no problem....

...Either way, they should have drafted a center in my book....

On the former, I'd be happy to put money on it. Give you 2-1 odds as well (barring injury of course). But, hey, I could be wrong. Anyway, this is just about how teams spend $$.

On the latter -- we are in complete agreement. By way of draft if possible, either in 2013 or the previous year, but w/o question we needed and still need a quality, young big on the roster.


I wasn't really taking a position as to "if" he would get paid 10M. Just no way of telling what the market will do at any given time but I'm leaning toward seeing he probably isn't worth that. I don't think his market value moving forward has been established just yet because he hasn't started on a good team.

Mainly I think of a starting center as a defensive anchor first. In that sense, I would take an Okafor as a starter over a Gortat. What Gortat adds is nice to have. He moves pretty well, has a pick n roll game and can block some shots and grab some boards. But he isn't quick defensively on rotations and he can't jump from a stand still.

Where I put Gortat is as a top level back up center who is able to start when needed. If Okafor sits the year out, I would love to see him return on the cheap for 5-6M for two years. With all his recent injuries, I think he will be greatly discounted if he misses most if not all the year. Depending on what the league sees from Gortat this year as a starter, he might not pull as much as people think. So maybe he can be had for 2-3 years at 6.5 to 7.5M a year. That's really where his value should be in my book. He hasn't been a starter on a good team and he isn't young with upside. I think he is being paid fairly right now. Trevor A should be signed at value for about the same.

That would make a decent front court rotation of bigs with scoring and defense if you have Nene, Okafor and Gortat playing 25-28 minutes each. And all should be movable in the for the right package to get other players. From there, I would add another young defensive center to groom on the cheap. An Iverson type. Or a one year rental of an old center I would use in a pinch. Gortat can effectually act as a 4 sometimes with Okafor a center. Ves fits in well as an energy rebounder or I'd go after a Tyler Hansbourgh, Faried, Evans disruptive bull type. That would make a pretty solid front court. Then add a S4.

Those are just foundation moves. There are always the bigger moves that can happen before or after those moves. Things like Gasol, Evan Turner, Monroe, etc. Even if I resigned Gortat, I would look for upgrades. I'm not sure how effective his game would be in the playoffs. He would be a good utility bench player who could come on and get some rebounds, but I don't think his offense is good enough to go against that level of defensive pressure and contested rim shots such that you could start him. I don't see that as a 10M player.

But as a big off the bench for 10-20 mins, I think he could help you there in the playoffs.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#237 » by tontoz » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:53 pm

jivelikenice wrote:
Randy...I know he's limited by the bench but did he really have o take Wall out during his 3rd quarter run?! He ices his own guys! He did that versus Philly in the home opener also.




Wall played 40 minutes on the 3rd game in 4 nights. He played 120 minutes in the 3 games. That is what happens when the backup is a garbage can. It seems like Wall is on the bench much longer than he actually is.

He had to come out at some point. He played almost the entire 3rd quarter.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#238 » by jivelikenice » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:22 pm

I agree...He had to sit, but let him play through the 3rd ad sit the first couple of minutes of the 4th if he's on a run like that. Your general point about the depth is right though. They're going to run Wall/Beal into the ground.
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#239 » by montestewart » Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:32 pm

jivelikenice wrote:I agree...He had to sit, but let him play through the 3rd ad sit the first couple of minutes of the 4th if he's on a run like that. Your general point about the depth is right though. They're going to run Wall/Beal into the ground.

The team's been told that Leonsis' expectation is to make the playoffs, and anyone in a contract year is probably thinking, "Playoffs or my job." Message to Witt: "Make the playoffs or else; oh yeah, and here's your roster; oh, and just one more thing: injuries are no excuse." What a quagmire of conflicting motivations!
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Re: GT #12: Wizards @ Raptors 7 PM CSN 

Post#240 » by Hypnotizer » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:07 pm

We need new game thread, anyone?

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