Vikes PG: 1/2 game out of 1st B*tchez :-)

[humanrefutation]

The reason why nobody wants to debate u on how much blame MM should shoulder is because u won't argue over anything besides the defensive problems. Basically u hold MM blameless because the defense has been very bad the last 4 weeks. No other factor or factors make any difference to u because the defense has been so bad recently, so essentially u choose to give MM a free pass because of the defenses performance. Look, we get it duder. How many times are u to make the same point over and over about the defense being bad? It's annoying and it whitewashes over a legitimate discussion about specific decision-making by MM that is completely separate and isolated from the defensive problems and injuries and u refuse to engage on it because of the aforementioned free pass u have given MM for this season no matter what he does.

Whatever, if it helps u sleep better at night or if ur absolute certainty makes u feel superior to other posters then by all means go ahead and completely close ur mind to the possibility that MM has made questionable in-game decisions all season because of whatever irrelevant rationalization u want to use to convince yourself but don't condescend to debate on the subject of MMs performance this season with others if ur mind is already made up to the point that u won't accept any criticism of him at all...

It's responses like these that really get on my nerves.

WTB: McCarthy sucks!
El Dude: You know, he's not at fault for the defense underperforming once again.
WTB: Stop deflecting! MM sucks!

You know, the reason some folks here don't lend too much credence to some of the criticisms of MM is because they're completely decontextualized from reality.

For example, I rarely give credence to complaints over play calling because, frankly, most of the complaints are baseless. You want to complain about in-game decision making? Give me some examples, please, and let's have a discussion about those specific examples.

I don't think MM is perfect by any means. I disagree with some of his decisions. But come on, now. The type of complaining around here about MM really makes the critics look worse than the subject of the critique.

Great post. I hate me when I get into it with posters in that completely non-productive manner as well, its just that I've learned better than to get into a back and forth with someone who I already know is gonna continue arguing on their own parallel plain and basically refuse to leave their off-topic high ground to engage in the actual point that is being disputed. It's absolutely pointless, it becomes just two posters talking past each other. If feel assured that I'm going to be talking to somebody that can understand both that I think MM is a above average coach overall and yet that I feel his weaknesses and mistakes should be fair game for discussion then I'm perfectly willing to attempt a substantive discussion.

Yes everyone knows the Packers have had a TON of injuries. Yes we all realize the defense has been ABYSMAL recently (part of the teams performance that MM is only indirectly responsible for as he delegates that responsibility to others). We ALL AGREE on that. There, now that that's settled lets move on to real issues. Lets go through them one by one. HR, El Dude, whoever else wants to respond, question number one:

MM sticking with Tolzien all week in practice and through the first 2 and a 1/2 quarters of the game only for all to quickly realize how stark the difference in talent, intelligence, and effectiveness was between Tolzien and Flynn after Flynn finally got the nod... A legitimate negative reflection on McCarthy's decision-making or no?

I think there are a few aspects of that question that need to be addressed before we can substantively judge MM's reaction:

1. How much of the offense has changed since Flynn left?
2. How comfortable was Flynn with the new pieces around him - notably at WR, TE, RB, and the OL?
3. How did they both look in practice? Who demonstrated a better mastery of the game plan?
4. Physically, who was in better shape to start?

Then, you have to consider that Tolzien actually looked decent at times @NYG, including making every single deep throw. Maybe he deserved another shot, having been on the team all season, at home against a terrible opponent?

I just don't think it was an easy call.

[whatthe_buck!?]

It's responses like these that really get on my nerves.

WTB: McCarthy sucks!
El Dude: You know, he's not at fault for the defense underperforming once again.
WTB: Stop deflecting! MM sucks!

You know, the reason some folks here don't lend too much credence to some of the criticisms of MM is because they're completely decontextualized from reality.

For example, I rarely give credence to complaints over play calling because, frankly, most of the complaints are baseless. You want to complain about in-game decision making? Give me some examples, please, and let's have a discussion about those specific examples.

I don't think MM is perfect by any means. I disagree with some of his decisions. But come on, now. The type of complaining around here about MM really makes the critics look worse than the subject of the critique.

Great post. I hate me when I get into it with posters in that completely non-productive manner as well, its just that I've learned better than to get into a back and forth with someone who I already know is gonna continue arguing on their own parallel plain and basically refuse to leave their off-topic high ground to engage in the actual point that is being disputed. It's absolutely pointless, it becomes just two posters talking past each other. If feel assured that I'm going to be talking to somebody that can understand both that I think MM is a above average coach overall and yet that I feel his weaknesses and mistakes should be fair game for discussion then I'm perfectly willing to attempt a substantive discussion.

Yes everyone knows the Packers have had a TON of injuries. Yes we all realize the defense has been ABYSMAL recently (part of the teams performance that MM is only indirectly responsible for as he delegates that responsibility to others). We ALL AGREE on that. There, now that that's settled lets move on to real issues. Lets go through them one by one. HR, El Dude, whoever else wants to respond, question number one:

MM sticking with Tolzien all week in practice and through the first 2 and a 1/2 quarters of the game only for all to quickly realize how stark the difference in talent, intelligence, and effectiveness was between Tolzien and Flynn after Flynn finally got the nod... A legitimate negative reflection on McCarthy's decision-making or no?

I think there are a few aspects of that question that need to be addressed before we can substantively judge MM's reaction:

1. How much of the offense has changed since Flynn left?
2. How comfortable was Flynn with the new pieces around him - notably at WR, TE, RB, and the OL?
3. How did they both look in practice? Who demonstrated a better mastery of the game plan?
4. Physically, who was in better shape to start?

Then, you have to consider that Tolzien actually looked decent at times @NYG, including making every single deep throw. Maybe he deserved another shot, having been on the team all season, at home against a terrible opponent?

I just don't think it was an easy call.

A lot of those questions u list are basically impossible for outsiders to know enough to try to answer (other than the visual evidence we have from the game of Flynn moving around really well and him having legit pop to his throws as far as question 4), but here is one thing that we do know that, depending on ur point of view, could possibly imply some of the differences between Flynn and Tolzien that should have factored into the decision of who to go with:

Flynn was able to run the no huddle extremely effectively whereas MM didnt attempt to do that with Tolzien, presumably because Tolzien just wasn't to the point that MM trusted his mastery of the offense enough that he felt going no huddle with him would be effective. Maybe in your opinion thats really stretching the evidence we have but then again we don't have a ton of evidence to go on so I think it's fair to bring up that point...

Edit: and for the record I agree it wasn't an easy call. I just believe that a coach, even if the decision was a difficult one, should be faulted to a certain extent if the decision he did make turned out to clearly be the incorrect one. On top of that however Im even perfectly willing to give him credit to the extent that a worse coach than MM probably would have ridden Tolzien all the way through the end of the game...

[chuckleslove]

Did you listen to MM's presser yesterday? I didn't listen to the entire thing but I heard some clips and he was talking about how they hadn't practiced the no huddle at all during the week and that basically once he put in Flynn the entire game plan went out the window and it was near impossible to call plays as it was stuff they didn't practice/prepare for.

It was basically just winging it at that point.

I also disagree that Flynn looked leaps and bounds better than Tolzien. The results were certainly leaps and bounds better, but he badly under-threw some throws as well and didn't exactly look like he had tons of zip on his passes.

All of that being said it certainly does deserve to be asked of MM why he waited so long to go to Flynn, I agree with humanrefutation that it wasn't as easy of a call as some around here would like to pretend it was. Tolzien looked worse in every game he played imo. Whether that is him coming back down to reality, a larger sample size showing us who he really is or what I don't know.

In hindsight it seems likely that Flynn was the right choice from whenever he was integrated enough in to the offense/playbook but from the sounds of MM at his presser yesterday he wasn't really integrated even on Sunday and they just sort of winged it.

[humanrefutation]

A lot of those questions u list are basically impossible for outsiders to know enough to try to answer...

And that's my point. All of those bits of information go into making a decision, and without knowing that information, anything we could say is guesswork at best. With the way McCarthy has shown his ability to train and groom QBs in the past, I'm comfortable with giving him the benefit of the doubt on that call.

Flynn was able to run the no huddle extremely effectively whereas MM didnt attempt to do that with Tolzien, presumably because Tolzien just wasn't to the point that MM trusted his mastery of the offense enough that he felt going no huddle with him would be effective. Maybe in your opinion thats really stretching the evidence we have but then again we don't have a ton of evidence to go on so I think it's fair to bring up that point...

That is one example where Flynn demonstrated some ability, sure. I liked what I saw from him. But that isn't necessarily reflective of who was the better choice to start the game. 20/20 hindsight is always the worst way to judge someone. It's better to focus, instead, on what they knew BEFORE the game.

[whatthe_buck!?]

Alright, interesting responses, next question:

MMs redzone and short yardage playcalling, has it been creative and/or aggressive enough for you guy's tastes? A legitimate avenue for criticizing the head coach or not?

[KidA24]

Alright, interesting responses, next question:

MMs redzone and short yardage playcalling, has it been creative and/or aggressive enough for you guy's tastes? A legitimate avenue for criticizing the head coach or not?

In OT Sunday, I wanted Lacy to get the ball 4 times from the 3 yard line. Go for the win right there.

Beyond that, he's had so many of his playmakers taken away (Finley, especially) that the goal line calls have been lacking. The utter lack of play-action bootlegs near the goal line has bothered me a lot as well... especially once Lacy got going.

[Newz]

In OT yesterday, I wanted Lacy to get the ball 4 times from the 3 yard line. Go for the win right there.

That's what I was hoping we would do as well. Even if we turned it over on downs, they'd be pinned at their own one... and I'd have to say the odds of Lacy getting in with four attempts from the one are pretty high.

[Balls2TheWalls]

In OT yesterday, I wanted Lacy to get the ball 4 times from the 3 yard line. Go for the win right there.

That's what I was hoping we would do as well. Even if we turned it over on downs, they'd be pinned at their own one... and I'd have to say the odds of Lacy getting in with four attempts from the one are pretty high.

Wasn't Lacy in the locker room at this point? I think he came back for our 2nd drive in overtime, but I think that was right at the point where his asthma was getting the better of him.

[Newz]

In OT yesterday, I wanted Lacy to get the ball 4 times from the 3 yard line. Go for the win right there.

That's what I was hoping we would do as well. Even if we turned it over on downs, they'd be pinned at their own one... and I'd have to say the odds of Lacy getting in with four attempts from the one are pretty high.

Wasn't Lacy in the locker room at this point? I think he came back for our 2nd drive in overtime, but I think that was right at the point where his asthma was getting the better of him.

I thought he came out after the series was done. Maybe he came out after second down though... if that's the case, I can see why they went away from trying to pound it in.

[chuckleslove]

Yeah I wanted to try to pound it in as well but that was right around the time he came out of the game so I'm not sure of the exact timing, would definitely make more sense if that was when he left.

[jtf150]

Did you listen to MM's presser yesterday? I didn't listen to the entire thing but I heard some clips and he was talking about how they hadn't practiced the no huddle at all during the week and that basically once he put in Flynn the entire game plan went out the window and it was near impossible to call plays as it was stuff they didn't practice/prepare for.

It was basically just winging it at that point.

I also disagree that Flynn looked leaps and bounds better than Tolzien. The results were certainly leaps and bounds better, but he badly under-threw some throws as well and didn't exactly look like he had tons of zip on his passes.

All of that being said it certainly does deserve to be asked of MM why he waited so long to go to Flynn, I agree with humanrefutation that it wasn't as easy of a call as some around here would like to pretend it was. Tolzien looked worse in every game he played imo. Whether that is him coming back down to reality, a larger sample size showing us who he really is or what I don't know.

In hindsight it seems likely that Flynn was the right choice from whenever he was integrated enough in to the offense/playbook but from the sounds of MM at his presser yesterday he wasn't really integrated even on Sunday and they just sort of winged it.

Tolzein might be a better QB, and is rusty because of his age and lack of experience, but what the Packers need is experience. Someone that can run the offense at this point of the season, and not someone just learning. I say go with Flynn.

[SpursNBucks]

Just about every team has lots of injuries this time of year-nature of the game. Let's face it - the only two injuries that REALLY hurt the Packers were Rodgers and Matthews. In fact other then maybe Jordy Nelson- those are the only two IMPACT players on the team. The drop-off you get from just about anyone else is something you can recover from- and in some instances may even improve.

So Cobb, Shields, Finley and Hayward aren't impact players?

Losing guys like Bulaga, Sherrod, Perry, Jolly and Harris doesn't hurt?

You don't think Worthy and Tretter missing time is going to stunt their development?

REALLY?!

Cobb- that hurt, but I don't know if I would label him "elite/impact"= hell of a slot receiver and was getting there, but then got injured.
Shield- kind of eratic, makes a nice play, but then makes some dumb plays- size limits him.
Finley- Talented, but can't hang onto the ball- time to let him go after this year-vastly over-paid. Also, a head case.
Hayward- not enough body of work.
Bulaga- just average.
Sherrod- didn't look good before the injury.
Perry- probably better fit for a 4-3 DE- a handful of plays made is it.
Jolly- just another guy.

Like I said- every team has injuries, can't continue to use that every year. I maintain that Rodgers, Matthews, and Nelson - maybe Cobb close - that's all they have in the way of impact players. If all you're going to do is Draft players you have to do a little better. If you continue to have a track record of injuries, then you have to look at your conditioning program.