Time to be honest about Iman Shumpert

ibraheim718 · Post #161 » by **ibraheim718** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:25 pm

I think the "regression" argument is hilarious.. everyone who was on this team last year has individually regressed from their play last year outside of Melo's rebounding.

Workforce250 · Post #162 » by **Workforce250** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:26 pm

thisiskoz wrote:
gavran wrote:
thisiskoz wrote:
dont get me wrong... i like the kid... and think he can find success in the right system... but until his handle improves... along with his ability to finish... hes a 3 and d guy at most... certainly nowhere close to westbrook... thats just laughable...

Who said he was Westbrook? Only the homers, and you, who want to make up excuses for trashing him/other fans on this board.

hahahaha... did you not read the thread???

no where did i generalize and say that most people think hes westbrook... it was a jab at a single discussion point in this very thread... cmon on now...

ibraheim718 · Post #163 » by **ibraheim718** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:27 pm

[GR] wrote:All that "swag" is bravado. The boy ain't built for this. Perfect example:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSEuxZCmC4&list[/youtube]

Look at him just sulk after

Dear lord Bargnani is awful... your teammates need to know if you're going to randomly front the post.

This team has taken on the identity of Andrea Bargnani... soft, lazy,and lifeless.

blueNorange · Post #164 » by **blueNorange** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:29 pm

KnicksFan7 wrote:Adios Shump. Time to package you with Stat and peace NYC.

then enjoy jr sniff playing 40 minutes and averaging 20 ppg on 19 shots.

[GR] · Post #165 » by **[GR]** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:32 pm

shmeakone wrote:
[GR] wrote:All that "swag" is bravado. The boy ain't built for this. Perfect example:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSEuxZCmC4&list[/youtube]

Look at him just sulk after

That was 98% Bargnani's fault. He flippin' set a screen on Shump!

No it isn't. Shump isn't even looking at Duncan, and got beat on his own. He didn't bump into Bargs until after

thisiskoz · Post #166 » by **thisiskoz** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:47 pm

[GR] wrote:
shmeakone wrote:
[GR] wrote:All that "swag" is bravado. The boy ain't built for this. Perfect example:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSEuxZCmC4&list[/youtube]

Look at him just sulk after

That was 98% Bargnani's fault. He flippin' set a screen on Shump!

No it isn't. Shump isn't even looking at Duncan, and got beat on his own. He didn't bump into Bargs until after

you should know by now guys see what they want to see... he was beat before any contact... but the bottom line this is far from the only example... kid gets taken off the dribble nightly... and gets beat backdoor a ton a well...

and in terms of the regression argument... i wont argue regression... ill argue approach... year 1 he focused more on stopping his man from penetrating... now... he focuses on steals and turnovers... and as a result he finds himself out of position a bunch because he gambles to try and get his hands on the ball... his own words about only playing defense for the possible offensive opportunity supports this...

sasso · Post #167 » by **sasso** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 pm

I say trade every valuable piece for picks while maintaining 2015 cap space. Then I would still try to re-sign Carmelo, if only to have another valuable contract on the books, then try to pair him with Rondo and Marc Gasol in 2015 free agency. If Melo walks, then no biggie, go for a Big 3 of Rondo, Gasol and either Kevin Love/Aldridge in 2015.

swisscheeseD · Post #168 » by **swisscheeseD** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 pm

sasso wrote:I say trade every valuable piece for picks while maintaining 2015 cap space. Then I would still try to re-sign Carmelo, if only to have another valuable contract on the books, then try to pair him with Rondo and Marc Gasol in 2015 free agency. If Melo walks, then no biggie, go for a Big 3 of Rondo, Gasol and either Kevin Love/Aldridge in 2015.

I like your style!

shmeakone · Post #169 » by **shmeakone** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:44 pm

What happened to this guy? Look at the coldblooded confidence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvmxRV6mvBw[/youtube]

Watching this actually makes me pretty sad.. I had so much hope for him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23RFp_1bWsp[/youtube]

Wtf man...

The Infamous1 · Post #170 » by **The Infamous1** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:51 pm

He's landry fields status

thisiskoz · Post #171 » by **thisiskoz** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:53 pm

and he is still capable of having offensive explosions like that night... hes just not a consistent enough threat to create his own shot... so those nights arent the norm... the problem is that he used to be able to hang his hat on good consistent defense every night... but that hasnt been the case lately... and thats a problem...

still like that pull up jumper off the dribble though... probably my favorite part of his game... like clyde says... its a lost art... but pretty when done well...

KnicksScholar24 · Post #172 » by **KnicksScholar24** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:08 pm

makeitstop wrote:
KnicksScholar24 wrote:I say bench Udrih and start Shumpert at PG.

Kid's got no handles, and you want him to be the starting PG?

He started at PG for the Knicks in his rookie season (and looked promising early on, but played too much of an East/West game instead of the effective North/South one that Lin plays). He played well at PG in the last regular season game of the 2012-13 season AND he was decent at running point in the summer league, for the 1 game that he played. He can play PG. He has as good ball security ability as Felton or Udrih. It's not like he average 5, 6 turnovers a game. As long as he doesn't try to force things and attempt to take driving lanes that aren't there, he can certainly handle playing PG. Even Anthony looked decent at being point forward last game. Shumpert can share the ball handling ability with other players.

So yes, I want him to be the starting PG. It can't be much worse than what we've seen from Felton or Udrih.

Move Udrih off-ball and let him be the spot up 3-point shooter or start JR Smith (most likely Hardaway Jr using Woodson's logic). The Knicks don't look like they can win a single game against any NBA team. I don't see what it will hurt. If he sucks, try something else (maybe Murry). The Knicks can't handle Udrih's & Bargnani's defense for extended periods. I can't handle watching it for extended periods. It would also benefit the Knicks to get Shumpert to be more a part of the game. Find out if he has any real potential at the PG position. If Avery Bradley can do it, then so can Shumpert (on a 3-10 Knicks team).

iHeartKNicks · Post #173 » by **iHeartKNicks** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:11 pm

shmeakone wrote:What happened to this guy? Look at the coldblooded confidence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvmxRV6mvBw[/youtube]

Watching this actually makes me pretty sad.. I had so much hope for him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23RFp_1bWsp[/youtube]

Wtf man...

This was pre trade rumors, no?

shmeakone · Post #174 » by **shmeakone** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:12 pm

iHeartKNicks wrote:
shmeakone wrote:What happened to this guy? Look at the coldblooded confidence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvmxRV6mvBw[/youtube]

Watching this actually makes me pretty sad.. I had so much hope for him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23RFp_1bWsp[/youtube]

Wtf man...

This was pre trade rumors, no?

Rookie year.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums mobile app

KnicksScholar24 · Post #175 » by **KnicksScholar24** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:26 pm

[GR] wrote:
shmeakone wrote:
[GR] wrote:All that "swag" is bravado. The boy ain't built for this. Perfect example:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSEuxZCmC4&list[/youtube]

Look at him just sulk after

That was 98% Bargnani's fault. He flippin' set a screen on Shump!

No it isn't. Shump isn't even looking at Duncan, and got beat on his own. He didn't bump into Bargs until after

It was 98% Bargnani's fault. He should have been to the LEFT of Duncan, so even if Shumpert gets picked, Bargnani could cut off Parker's drive to the basket. I'm sure Tyson Chandler would have been in the right position, and Shumpert wouldn't have been hung out to dry. Shumpert looks like a worse defender because everybody else is below average and a few rotation players are horrendous.

That's why I listed, Chandler being out, as one of the reasons for Shumpert's poor (defensive) play. Chandler was overrated last year, imo, and play with a 20-30% motor most of the year, but the simple fundamentals of defense, which can be overlooked (especially when compared to a player with NO FUNDAMENTAL defensive skills), Tyson has always been able to do. He was usually in position to challenge the shot in the paint; he just rarely put in the effort to protect the rim (maybe to keep himself out of foul trouble). Bargnani is so bad at simple defensive principles (and exacerbates that with 1% effort) that he could make almost any other NBA center look good by comparison. I'm sure Aldrich is better than Bargnani in defensive fundamentals and effort. Bargnani is only good at using his length is post defense situations.

Post #176 » by **Deeeez Knicks** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:35 pm

shmeakone wrote:What happened to this guy? Look at the coldblooded confidence.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvmxRV6mvBw[/youtube]

Watching this actually makes me pretty sad.. I had so much hope for him.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j23RFp_1bWsp[/youtube]

Wtf man...

Maybe it takes longer then 18 months to fully recover from ACL surgery?

Not only physically, but mentally as well. His confidence is def down.

Post #177 » by **Deeeez Knicks** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:49 pm

thisiskoz wrote:
[GR] wrote:
shmeakone wrote:That was 98% Bargnani's fault. He flippin' set a screen on Shump!

No it isn't. Shump isn't even looking at Duncan, and got beat on his own. He didn't bump into Bargs until after

you should know by now guys see what they want to see... he was beat before any contact... but the bottom line this is far from the only example... kid gets taken off the dribble nightly... and gets beat backdoor a ton a well...

and in terms of the regression argument... i wont argue regression... ill argue approach... year 1 he focused more on stopping his man from penetrating... now... he focuses on steals and turnovers... and as a result he finds himself out of position a bunch because he gambles to try and get his hands on the ball... his own words about only playing defense for the possible offensive opportunity supports this...

Is it really that bad to get beat by Tony Parker off the dribble? Nobody is containing him by themselves.

The far bigger problem is the help defense. Not only does Barg not help Shump, he is actually helping Tony Parker by tripping Shump and setting a screen. And Parker totally knew Bargs had his back to the play and was out of position and took advantage, You could have replace Shump with anybody in the NBA on that play and nobody was stopping Parker.

Shump was playing 1 vs 3 on that play.

KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127 · Post #178 » by **KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:23 pm

So you want to trade him cause he sucks? And after ripping this guy apart you want value for him? Aren't you supposed to sell high? Any team that trades for this guy won't be trading for equal value cause his stock is down. If you're smart you hold onto him until he starts performing like he did in the playoffs. Once again this comes down to the team. Why is this team struggling and not caring look at your leader. Carmelo Anthony doesn't care. He doesn't care about basketball he doesn't care about the Knicks he doesn't care about winning. The guy wants to drop 28 and get 6-7 rebounds stuff the stat sheet and go home. If he cared about basketball he wouldn't be overweight his entire career. When Woodson first came on Melo loved him and preached defense now that's worn off and he can go back to bring selfish. Yeah he's going to win 5-7 games on last minute jumpers but he's not a winner. Ship Melo out before you ship Shump out.

Damas · Post #179 » by **Damas** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:28 pm

KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127 wrote:So you want to trade him cause he sucks? And after ripping this guy apart you want value for him? Aren't you supposed to sell high? Any team that trades for this guy won't be trading for equal value cause his stock is down. If you're smart you hold onto him until he starts performing like he did in the playoffs. Once again this comes down to the team. Why is this team struggling and not caring look at your leader. Carmelo Anthony doesn't care. He doesn't care about basketball he doesn't care about the Knicks he doesn't care about winning. The guy wants to drop 28 and get 6-7 rebounds stuff the stat sheet and go home. If he cared about basketball he wouldn't be overweight his entire career. When Woodson first came on Melo loved him and preached defense now that's worn off and he can go back to bring selfish. Yeah he's going to win 5-7 games on last minute jumpers but he's not a winner. Ship Melo out before you ship Shump out.

Melo was never overweight, so I don't know where you are getting that from. Empty stat sheet? The guy is a bulk of our offense, without him we would be the worst team in the East.

Who will score and be the leader on this team if not Melo?

KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127 · Post #180 » by **KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127** » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:48 pm

darkdrone wrote:
KnIcKsYaNkSmEtS1127 wrote:So you want to trade him cause he sucks? And after ripping this guy apart you want value for him? Aren't you supposed to sell high? Any team that trades for this guy won't be trading for equal value cause his stock is down. If you're smart you hold onto him until he starts performing like he did in the playoffs. Once again this comes down to the team. Why is this team struggling and not caring look at your leader. Carmelo Anthony doesn't care. He doesn't care about basketball he doesn't care about the Knicks he doesn't care about winning. The guy wants to drop 28 and get 6-7 rebounds stuff the stat sheet and go home. If he cared about basketball he wouldn't be overweight his entire career. When Woodson first came on Melo loved him and preached defense now that's worn off and he can go back to bring selfish. Yeah he's going to win 5-7 games on last minute jumpers but he's not a winner. Ship Melo out before you ship Shump out.

Melo was never overweight, so I don't know where you are getting that from. Empty stat sheet? The guy is a bulk of our offense, without him we would be the worst team in the East.

Who will score and be the leader on this team if not Melo?

I clearly said stuff the stat sheet that doesn't sound like empty. Did anyone care who scored when we cleaned house for Lebron? You need to clear cap space in the NBA currently with this roster and payroll were what 3-10 so where has that gotten us? And yes Melos been overweight look up the Olympics when Lebron had the whole team doing ab workouts and Melo was the only NBA star who couldn't handle the workout.