MVP discussion thread

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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#681 » by aquaadverse » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:20 pm

Chalky White wrote:
Antrim wrote:
Chalky White wrote:LBJ is only one of a handful of Miami players experiencing career high averages in efficiency, and I think that's more a testament to the system and talent level of the team rather than LBJ's individual brilliance.


Only if you lack the basketball knowledge to recognize the fact that the whole system revolves around him, offensively and defensively.


LeBron is carrying less of a load offensively and defensively this season than any since he's been in Miami. They've adopted a Spurs like approach emphasizing ball movement, and they're better because of it.


So exactly who on the Spurs is leading the team in scoring, rebounds and assists ?
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#682 » by xMADEinDADEx » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:35 pm

Lol some of you say the silliest things.


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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#683 » by xStanton27 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:19 pm

Chalky White wrote:
Antrim wrote:
Chalky White wrote:LBJ is only one of a handful of Miami players experiencing career high averages in efficiency, and I think that's more a testament to the system and talent level of the team rather than LBJ's individual brilliance.


Only if you lack the basketball knowledge to recognize the fact that the whole system revolves around him, offensively and defensively.


LeBron is carrying less of a load offensively and defensively this season than any since he's been in Miami. They've adopted a Spurs like approach emphasizing ball movement, and they're better because of it.


This is just nonsense. Even the rotations are set to maximize Lebron. Starting Battier instead of Haslem (3 point shooters with Lebron) First sub is Wade, we bring in ray ( more shooters around Lebron). When Lebron goes to the bench, we bring in Beasley to create and facilitate, etc.

It's obvious the whole system is centered around Lebron
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#684 » by Rasho_libre » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:06 pm

Chalky White wrote:LeBron's playing very well, but he isn't going to shoot 49% from three or 60% from the field through the remainder of the season. What he's doing needs to be analyzed within the context of what the Heat as a unit are doing, which is turning out some of the most consistently explosive offense the league has seen since Nash's Suns. Miami manufactures mismatches and open looks as well as anyone, and they've been been overwhelming teams with their depth and athleticism through the first month of the season en route to some impressive numbers. LBJ is only one of a handful of Miami players experiencing career high averages in efficiency, and I think that's more a testament to the system and talent level of the team rather than LBJ's individual brilliance. It also doesn't hurt that he's a PF whose statistical production is analyzed via the standards of a perimeter player(72% of his points are coming from the paint, or the line).

Most of the improvement I see is in his comfortability in the post, but beyond that his level of play right now is within expected variation. Though, I don't expect him to carry these averages into the post season. He never does.

I think the same is true of Paul George to an extent. His individual improvement is obvious, but when analyzing his defensive metrics it's important to note that the Pacers are performing at a high level defensively across the board. While his individual play deserves recognition, some of his production is a reflection of the strength of the teams system.

Plus, it's only been 15 games, and both have benefited from weak schedules.


Curious as to what your unbiased opinion of kd is right now. Before you bite my head off for being a Lebron fan, I have kd number 1 on my list currently for MVP.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#685 » by Chalky White » Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:52 pm

Rasho_libre wrote:Curious as to what your unbiased opinion of kd is right now. Before you bite my head off for being a Lebron fan, I have kd number 1 on my list currently for MVP.


True to form, Durant has started off slow offensively. He's shooting a 5 year low from within the arc, missing an abnormal amount of freebies, and is off on shots he normally makes. Still though, he's getting to wherever he wants on the court, creating and taking good shots, and is getting to the line at an historic rate. I expect his percentages to pick up across the board as the season progresses.

His development as a ball handler and play maker has been remarkable. He's initiating the offense from the tope of the key as much as Westbrook through the first month, and he's able to recognize and pass out of double teams as well as anyone in the league. From the post, this is especially valuable, and would be amplified if OKC was a better team from 3. The turnovers are trending downward, and OKC's offense is picking up. I still don't like what they're doing conceptually, but Durant is good enough most of the time to make up for what they're lacking in X's and O's.

He could probably pick up his rebounding, but defensively he's been about as good as a perimeter player can be. Not George good, but the next step down. He needs to continue to get stronger, but for most anyone with the exception of the strongest of PF's, his length and mobility is a problem.

As for where he stands amongst his peers? It's too early to form an opinion on MVP imo, but if the season ended I'd have him below George and LeBron, and right around Paul. Though, from a standpoint of skill and basketball ability, I think he's the best in the league next to LBJ.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#686 » by xMADEinDADEx » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:20 am

Well it's only fair that bron has a historic offensive season especially after what kd displayed last year.


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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#687 » by Darkstar77 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:22 am

Honestly it's Lebron here.





Everyone else here. It's not a knock on Paul, KD, Love or Chris. It's just how it is.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#688 » by Sonny Carson » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:33 am

Durant
Paul George
LeBron



I have higher standards for LeBron. Even though his efficiency is amazing. He's coasted more than usual.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#689 » by big_ticket » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:45 am

Darkstar77 wrote:Honestly it's Lebron here.


bron will have 50 tom. on the cavs
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#690 » by xStanton27 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:46 am

Sonny Carson wrote:Durant
Paul George
LeBron



I have higher standards for LeBron. Even though his efficiency is amazing. He's coasted more than usual.


35 points on 14 shots, shooting 79% in his most recent game, is not coasting. There is simply no defense for that claim.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#691 » by EscapoTHB » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:11 am

Lebron coasts at a higher level than anyone else in the league plays. That's why he's the MVP. Right now though Paul George would win the MVP. Because the Pacers record mainly. If the Pacers fall behind Miami record wise then the MVP will be a lock for Lebron, particularly if the Spurs run away with the West. So long as Miami wins the East, and the Thunder don't win the West, Lebron's MVP is pretty much on lock.

But that's not a certainty the way the Pacers are playing.

So personally:
Lebron
PG
KD

But based on how people vote:
PG
Lebron
KD(maybe Tony Parker even instead?)

You really can't overstate what George and the Pacers have done to start the season. But as we saw last year with the Knicks. Fast starts do not always last. How will the Pacers respond to adversity?
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#692 » by Rock Hardy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:03 am

Early in the season, there's always mention of other names, but by season's end, it's always just one that rises to the top. The award is Lebron's to lose. He's yet to turn up the wick, and he's already head and shoulder above the rest. He can't be denied, unless it's voter fatigue, and I don't believe that's happening yet. You don't get tired of witnessing this level of greatness.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#693 » by Rasho_libre » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:39 am

G-Menn wrote:Well it's only fair that bron has a historic offensive season especially after what kd displayed last year.


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I thought Lebron had an even better offensive season. It sucks for kd that he's playing in an era with Lebron. Because kd is an all the great himself and he's being severely underrated because of the crap Lebron is doing.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#694 » by JoeSchmo24 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:22 am

Rock Hardy wrote:Early in the season, there's always mention of other names, but by season's end, it's always just one that rises to the top. The award is Lebron's to lose. He's yet to turn up the wick, and he's already head and shoulder above the rest. He can't be denied, unless it's voter fatigue, and I don't believe that's happening yet. You don't get tired of witnessing this level of greatness.


Well if you are fan of the Heat like yourself of course you don't get tired of seeing it, but I would argue if this were true Michael Jordan would have a lot more MVP trophies.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#695 » by QRich3 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:49 am

JoeSchmo24 wrote:
Rock Hardy wrote:Early in the season, there's always mention of other names, but by season's end, it's always just one that rises to the top. The award is Lebron's to lose. He's yet to turn up the wick, and he's already head and shoulder above the rest. He can't be denied, unless it's voter fatigue, and I don't believe that's happening yet. You don't get tired of witnessing this level of greatness.


Well if you are fan of the Heat like yourself of course you don't get tired of seeing it, but I would argue if this were true Michael Jordan would have a lot more MVP trophies.

Yeah, you do get tired of it. I respect the hell out of his game obviously, but it's a bit dissapointing seeing that's he's just dominating everybody with not much effort, and that it's November and we already know who's gonna win the MVP and the chip again (well we don't actually know it but there hasn't been as likely a thing in the NBA in years, probably decades). Same with the Spurs, I love watching them play, but I was excited for this years race for the West 1st seed, which looked like it was as open as it had been in a long time. Well, less than a month in, nope, it's not open at all, Spurs are gonna run with it as they ever do.

It's early and all this is a bit of an exaggeration, but yeah, we all like competitiveness and uncertainty when we watch the game, if someone heavily dominates it like he has for this long a time, you do feel like you're just watching what you already knew unfolding. And that's not nearly as exciting as "who the hell is gonna win this thing".

Only because of that, I'm sure the media is gonna push the idea that someone is here to take his crown (probably George), just so we have the false sensation of uncertainty that's gonna generate more clicks for them. That's the only narrative that can take the MVP away from him.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#696 » by HotRocks34 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:45 pm

Antrim wrote:
Chalky White wrote:LBJ is only one of a handful of Miami players experiencing career high averages in efficiency, and I think that's more a testament to the system and talent level of the team rather than LBJ's individual brilliance.


Only if you lack the basketball knowledge to recognize the fact that the whole system revolves around him, offensively and defensively.


I And-1'd Chalky's post because of what he said about LeBron's post game, even if I disagree with the rest of what he said along the same lines as what you're saying here, Antrim.

I think anyone who has swallowed the "LeBron's game will decline as he loses his athleticism" line might want to examine how he is playing in the post these days. Or take a look at his improved jump shot.

Playing in the post is something many perimeter players seem to do as they age/get more experience and improve their game. When Jordan became more of a post player later in his career, I still regarded him as a perimeter player. Same with Kobe and his apparently-increased post-up game.

LeBron is becoming increasingly good at playing from the post. But I think there is still substantial room for improvement, which should be a scary thought for the rest of the league.

Additionally, his jump-shooting form has apparently improved dramatically. His balance on his shot just looks way, way better to me than it has in the past. He finally seems to have worked on this issue, it seems, and the results seem pretty clear.

LeBron's fadeaway also appears much improved, smoother.

I think LeBron is also on track for his best-ever free throw shooting season, as well, if he can keep up his current pace.

Finally, if LeBron has another 30.0+ PER season this year, he would become the first player in NBA history to have five seasons with a 30.0+ PER. He is currently tied with Jordan for four such seasons. Shaq and Wilt had three each.

I do think there could be a "give it to someone else" push among the NBA media as regards LeBron potentially winning another MVP this year. However, if the Heat win 60 games and LeBron is anything close to the player he has been early in the season over the full 2013-14 campaign, I can't see any way he doesn't win the award. Even if, say, the Heat win 60 games and Indy wins like 64 games.

*
*

Someone asked about Wade -- He still is apparently dealing with the bone bruise issue (knees), Shock Wave treatment recovery (knees), and tendonitis in at least one of his knees, I believe. I think I heard he's not supposed to be fully recovered from the Shock Wave treatment for several months yet. Thus, he apparently is not up to full speed at this time.

Still, he looked great the last few games, I thought. Or at least very good. 27/4/4 with some big dunks in the second ORL game, and 21/6/12 against PHX with at least one big dunk. He looks like he is slowly rounding into form and definitely appears to still be a serious force when and if he's feeling healthy that night.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#697 » by Rock Hardy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:08 pm

JoeSchmo24 wrote:
Rock Hardy wrote:Early in the season, there's always mention of other names, but by season's end, it's always just one that rises to the top. The award is Lebron's to lose. He's yet to turn up the wick, and he's already head and shoulder above the rest. He can't be denied, unless it's voter fatigue, and I don't believe that's happening yet. You don't get tired of witnessing this level of greatness.


Well if you are fan of the Heat like yourself of course you don't get tired of seeing it, but I would argue if this were true Michael Jordan would have a lot more MVP trophies.

I guess I should have elaborated. That Lebron continues to progress, means that new surprises and wrinkles get added each year. A lot of the people voting for this would probably get bored if he was just doing the same thing over and over again, but like most of this forum has acknowledged this early, what he's doing is simply impressive. No one expected him to get better, but he still is. I'm not sure fatigue can set in when someone continues to elevate their game to unforseen levels. Once his progression plateaus, I can understand it, but right now, he's just kicking down that MVP door and stealing all the votes. That's my opinion, though, and I acknowledge there is a lot of bias in it. :D
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#698 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:08 pm

JoeSchmo24 wrote:
Rock Hardy wrote:Early in the season, there's always mention of other names, but by season's end, it's always just one that rises to the top. The award is Lebron's to lose. He's yet to turn up the wick, and he's already head and shoulder above the rest. He can't be denied, unless it's voter fatigue, and I don't believe that's happening yet. You don't get tired of witnessing this level of greatness.


Well if you are fan of the Heat like yourself of course you don't get tired of seeing it, but I would argue if this were true Michael Jordan would have a lot more MVP trophies.


Jordan won 5, he could have won 7 if not for voter fatigue. You can argue he deserved even more, but he wasn't losing in the earlier years due to voter fatigue.

So it was a real thing, but it wasn't something happening left and right, and I think the effect has gotten weaker over time. In the age of the internet, it's an embarrassment to side against the best player and to have to justify it years down the road.

None of this I think stops a '93 Barkley-like thing from happening, where Jordan's team didn't actually have the best record.

A '97 Malone-like thing though, that's tougher. It probably only happened in '97 in the first place out of nostalgia for Malone never before winning an MVP, and still it's an embarassment.

In short, as long as LeBron remains seen as the best player in the league, he's healthy all season, and his team has the best record of the MVP candidates, I expect him to keep winning the award.

So who can stop him this year?

Well, the Spurs could have the better record, but nobody there can win the MVP.

The Thunder aren't likely to have the better record I think, but if they do, voters will absolutely want to give it to Durant.

And then there's the Pacers and Paul George. I personally think voters would be very reluctant to "Derrick Rose" Paul George, meaning trumpet George in his first truly top tier season. Short of something happening that truly looks LeBron's season look incomplete, I expect LeBron gets the nod over George.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#699 » by theokie » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:20 pm

I honestly think only Chris Paul or Kevin Durant can beat LeBron at this point, and they will only be able to do that if their teams have a significantly better record, because its very unlikely their stats will be more impressive.

As much as I like Paul George, I doubt his stats will be gaudy enough at the end of the year to edge out LeBron, even if the Pacers finish the year with a better record.

MVP is basically determined by stats, record/seeding, and media hype/story. PG is probably 4th in hype and will probably be 4th in stats by seasons end.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#700 » by xStanton27 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:22 pm

theokie wrote:I honestly think only Chris Paul or Kevin Durant can beat LeBron at this point, and they will only be able to do that if their teams have a significantly better record, because its very unlikely their stats will be more impressive.

As much as I like Paul George, I doubt his stats will be gaudy enough at the end of the year to edge out LeBron, even if the Pacers finish the year with a better record.

MVP is basically determined by stats, record/seeding, and media hype/story. PG is probably 4th in hype and will probably be 4th in stats by seasons end.


Rose didn't have better stats than Lebron. In fact, they were worse, and he won it because his team was in first.

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