MVP discussion thread

[LBJ-ITALY]

Lebron's rebound are down right now and even his assists!

[Antrim]

Lebron's rebound are down right now and even his assists!

I'm surprised he's averaging more than 3 RPG, if it doesn't fall in his lap he's not getting the rebound and he hasn't boxed out once in the season. Not only his offensive game, he's taken coasting to a whole new level too

[Gotta_B_KD35]

Lebron's rebound are down right now and even his assists!

I'm surprised he's averaging more than 3 RPG, if it doesn't fall in his lap he's not getting the rebound and he hasn't boxed out once in the season. Not only his offensive game, he's taken coasting to a whole new level too

You Lebron fans are so annoying. This whole month you've got guys bitching about his rebounds and assists being down.

Lebron has honestly spoiled you fans. He's averaging career highs in multiple categories and people still complaining that he needs to bring his stats up.

Then you've got the biggest nuthuggers posting laughing emoticons on how he's coasting when deep inside they're scared that he can "potentially" get robbed of an MVP this year.

*NEWSFLASH*. Lebron is miles ahead of everyone in the MVP race even if he is coasting (partially). PG24 is only in contention because of team record. By the end of the year, if both LBJ and PG's stats stay the same and they have near winning records, Lebron is going to slaughter PG in the votes.

Lebron's only threat in winning his 3rd straight MVP is Durant and maaaybe CP3. Even then, he beats out Durant in stats and who knows about about team record. But just like with PG, Lebron is going to beat KD if both team records are eerily close.

[MisterWestside]

Jordan's certainly given his share of negativity Kobe's way, but now it's clear Kobe isn't a threat, and it's also clear that LeBron serves as a much bigger threat not simply based on actual impact, but as a rebuke on how Jordan played. The reason guys like this are so quick to knock LeBron for being afraid to shoot the big shot, is because they are secretly afraid they he's actually going about things the right way, which means they were hurting their team with their individual focus.

I want to cosign your post (I usually do), but perhaps you should clarify because I feel as if you're also taking a little bit of a backhanded swipe at scorers. If you're a pure passer/non-scorer on an team that needs scorers, you're not helping your team as much as you could be. There are way too many variables at play in team basketball dynamics to reduce everything to a single player's so-called inability to "make a team better" or his "individual focus" (for starters, watch a Lakers game with a basketball-savvy Lakers fan and count the number of times he yells at Pau Gasol for passing the ball back to Kobe Bryant instead of just "shooting the damn ball" with an opportunity to shoot). Ideally, you would like to field a club that has all five players sharing the ball in equal fashion, but that isn't always attainable in practice.

[theokie]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

[Antrim]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

That he's not playing up to his standards doesn't mean much if he's much better than anyone else but LeBron.

[parapooper]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

His "bad" shooting could be an exhaustion thing - he is doing a lot of rebounding and playmaking this year and being gassed probably does not help with the shooting percentages. His shooting was already a bit meh (by his standards) in the playoffs when he had to do everything.
LeBron seems to be going the opposite way - phoning in some aspects of the game, such as only rebounding what happens to bounce his way, may help him save his breath for proper shooting.

[theokie]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

His "bad" shooting could be an exhaustion thing - he is doing a lot of rebounding and playmaking this year and being gassed probably does not help with the shooting percentages. His shooting was already a bit meh (by his standards) in the playoffs when he had to do everything.
LeBron seems to be going the opposite way - phoning in some aspects of the game, such as only rebounding what happens to bounce his way, may help him save his breath for proper shooting.

I think strength of schedule plays a factor too. Its a lot easier to coast when you've only played 3 teams with a winning record thus far this year.

[xMADEinDADEx]

Well.. Bron is back on top of ws/48 with .310ish.. Closest player? CP3 .280ish.

Very dominant.


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[rcontador]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

As long as the Thunder keep winning, he deserves (and will get) serious consideration. I agree that in most respects he's not looking as good as he did last year, but can't complain about the results.

[Doctor MJ]

Kobe and MJ sound buthurt when talking about LeBron. But I understand it. Kobe doesn't like that LeBron has already surpassed him in every cateagory and MJ feels LeBron is going for the GOAT spot.

It's always interesting to me how players pick sides in their gripes.

Shaq was notorious for this. Everyone knows about his smack against Kobe, but he was as likely to talk Kobe up as knock him down. The important thing to always remember was that whether it was meant as an insult or a compliment, you shouldn't listen to any of it.

Jordan's certainly given his share of negativity Kobe's way, but now it's clear Kobe isn't a threat, and it's also clear that LeBron serves as a much bigger threat not simply based on actual impact, but as a rebuke on how Jordan played. The reason guys like this are so quick to knock LeBron for being afraid to shoot the big shot, is because they are secretly afraid they he's actually going about things the right way, which means they were hurting their team with their individual focus.

I agree with you at everything, but I don't believe Jordan was hurting his team with his individual foccus. He won the ring 6 times while playing at GOAT level.

I don't get why LeBron's play being right has to make Jordan's play wrong. Different ways of winning... so I don't think MJ should be always so buthurt about LeBron. If he surpasses MJ it's not because MJ said LeBron didn't that it won't happen. Call it like it is.

This is what's sad about Jordan as a person. If only he truly was the above-the-fray character he's always positioned as in his commercials (that was done because he couldn't act), but instead what we see is a guy who has to always try to win, and who doesn't understand that sometimes you win by just being graceful.

Jordan's performance through his prime was basically flawless. Because we saw how he reacted to the game when his game left him (poorly) we can see how things might have gone wrong...but they didn't. As a result, no matter what LeBron achieves, there will be many, if not most, who will champion Jordan above LeBron.

For example, when refer to the GOAT in basketball, we typically refer to career achievements, but we could also be referring to highest peak. If LeBron or someone else in the future has a Russell-like career, it will probably be acknowledged that "Sure X did more in his career..." but people will then emphasized "...but no one was better than Jordan, and sure he couldn't have padded his career achievements but how much does that really matter?".

[theokie]

If the East and West continue to be so lopsided, at what point does strength of schedule become a real factor in the MVP race? 60 wins in the West this season means a lot more than 60 wins in the East at this pace. I can't remember SOS ever being brought up in the MVP race before, but what if East finishes the year with two teams over .500? I'm not saying that it should solely determine who wins and loses, but will it be a factor in? Should it?

[Hans Embiid]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

That he's not playing up to his standards doesn't mean much if he's much better than anyone else but LeBron.

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

[Colbinii]

If the East and West continue to be so lopsided, at what point does strength of schedule become a real factor in the MVP race? 60 wins in the West this season means a lot more than 60 wins in the East at this pace. I can't remember SOS ever being brought up in the MVP race before, but what if East finishes the year with two teams over .500? I'm not saying that it should solely determine who wins and loses, but will it be a factor in? Should it?

I think it matters, but generally when discussing MVP on this site we (well, a few posters) are over-analyzing things compared to how the voters vote.
Now, with how Advanced Stats are becoming more mainstream, maybe they will start to play a role, but I think we are a few years out before the MVP voters start using more criteria than PER, W/L, and Box-Score metrics to vote.

The other thing you have to remember is like any voting procedure with candidates, personal preference is going to come into play. Do you prefer Wins, do you prefer how many wins X player adds, do you prefer box number metrics or advanced stats, ect ect. Obviously we incorporate everything into this, but everyone weighs each to a different scale.

Another point regarding your SOS and such is you can't just say Miami is 24-3 against the West without look at context. Miami isn't playing West teams night in night out, so just because they have a great win % against them doesn't mean it would translate if they actually did play in the West. Just a thought, not trying to bash Miami or use this to prop/lower and player.

[Colbinii]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

That he's not playing up to his standards doesn't mean much if he's much better than anyone else but LeBron.

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

I agree that Durant isn't "much better" than anyone else but Lebron, and CP3 is closer to Durant than LeBron is.
Based on how well these players have played so far, I would have it like this.

1. Lebron
-------------
2A. CP3
2B. Durant

I expect Durant to finish somewhere around last year, but if CP3 can keep up what he has been doing, its a coin flip to determine who is the better player in my opinion.

[Antrim]

Durant's playing horrible this year (for his standards). He doesn't deserve much consideration at this point, but he's a big name so people will wrongly put him up there.

That he's not playing up to his standards doesn't mean much if he's much better than anyone else but LeBron.

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

Not even close.

[Colbinii]

That he's not playing up to his standards doesn't mean much if he's much better than anyone else but LeBron.

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

Not even close.

Not sure if you are watching the same Chris Paul as I am.

Chris Paul has been a better shooter this season. The only reason Kevin Durant has a better TS% is because of his godly .650 FTR, which is the best of All-time.

Chris Paul averages 2.5 Assists/TO while Durant is averaging just a shade over 1 Assist/TO.
Durant has more TO than CP3 is handling the ball every possession when he is on the floor.

Chris Paul and Durant, both the focal points of their respective offenses, differ by nearly 10 oRTG points.

Sure, Durant may be a better basketball player, but so far THIS season, Chris Paul has been a BETTER basketball player.

[Chalky White]

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

Not even close.

Not sure if you are watching the same Chris Paul as I am.

Chris Paul has been a better shooter this season. The only reason Kevin Durant has a better TS% is because of his godly .650 FTR, which is the best of All-time.

Chris Paul averages 2.5 Assists/TO while Durant is averaging just a shade over 1 Assist/TO.
Durant has more TO than CP3 is handling the ball every possession when he is on the floor.

Chris Paul and Durant, both the focal points of their respective offenses, differ by nearly 10 oRTG points.

Sure, Durant may be a better basketball player, but so far THIS season, Chris Paul has been a BETTER basketball player.

Impact statistics are immaterial this early on. OKC has played 14 games, that's hardly enough of a sample to declare Paul the better player given that Durant has been consistently more impressive over the last two three years in both the regular and post seasons. It should also be noted that OKC would be up 2-0 on the Clippers right now had Ibaka not been wrongfully ejected in their first match up.

Despite his cold stretch he's playing all NBA level defense, creating for his teammates, and aggressively attacking the boards. I think he's leading all swing-men in double doubles through 14 games, which speaks to the strides he's made as an all round player since being drafted. I think Durant picks up his scoring going into December, but we'll see.

As for George and LeBron? The Eastern conference is playing historically weak basketball right now, and the Pacers and Heat have benefited early on from playing bottom three SOS's. They're both playing exceptionally well, but I think that's worth keeping in mind when discussing how they're performing statistically next to their western conference counterparts.

[Antrim]

He is not. Right now Chris is clearly the best player after Lebron in the league.

Not even close.

Not sure if you are watching the same Chris Paul as I am.

Chris Paul has been a better shooter this season. The only reason Kevin Durant has a better TS% is because of his godly .650 FTR, which is the best of All-time.

Chris Paul averages 2.5 Assists/TO while Durant is averaging just a shade over 1 Assist/TO.
Durant has more TO than CP3 is handling the ball every possession when he is on the floor.

Chris Paul and Durant, both the focal points of their respective offenses, differ by nearly 10 oRTG points.

Sure, Durant may be a better basketball player, but so far THIS season, Chris Paul has been a BETTER basketball player.

6 feet tall guy who's never gotten past the second round while leading his team... that guy?

Chris Paul may be having a better statistical season than Durant right now.

He certainly is not a better player, nor will he ever be.

[Tave]

Another point regarding your SOS and such is you can't just say Miami is 24-3 against the West without look at context. Miami isn't playing West teams night in night out, so just because they have a great win % against them doesn't mean it would translate if they actually did play in the West. Just a thought, not trying to bash Miami or use this to prop/lower and player.

Sure they do. The NBA plays a ton out-of-conference: almost 40% of the team's schedule on 82 games. Essentially every team gets a month of conference-heavy play and the rest is fairly even.