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Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing

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IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes, I believe it is time for EG to go now.
29
69%
2) Ted should let him go at the end of the season.
9
21%
3) No, Ted needs to give him more time..(DESPITE THE FACT ERNIE HAS BEEN GM SINCE 2003)
4
10%
 
Total votes: 42

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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1101 » by FreeBalling » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:18 pm

montestewart wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:If Beal is out for a bit, it could be a blessing in disguise. Getting the 7th or 8th seed is, easily, the worst case scenario for the Wizards. It would mean a Grunfeld contract extension and no 1st round pick next year.


The rare occasion where we are in 100% agreement. Contrary to popular opinion, making the playoffs would be an unmitigated disaster for this franchise long term if it meant Ernie got an extension.

Sorry guys, but I've been a Wizards fan too long. Worst case scenario is just missing the playoffs, losing the draft pick, and EG reupped thanks to an heroic if futile performance to end the season.


That's a bad scenario...I hope we are not talking about what you posted in the offseason.


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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1102 » by queridiculo » Sun Dec 1, 2013 3:22 am

Second page? Absolutely unacceptable.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1103 » by payitforward » Sun Dec 1, 2013 4:12 am

Dat2U wrote:
JonathanJoseph wrote:If Beal is out for a bit, it could be a blessing in disguise. Getting the 7th or 8th seed is, easily, the worst case scenario for the Wizards. It would mean a Grunfeld contract extension and no 1st round pick next year.

The rare occasion where we are in 100% agreement. Contrary to popular opinion, making the playoffs would be an unmitigated disaster for this franchise long term if it meant Ernie got an extension.

First off, I doubt Beal being out for a month or so winds up making us much worse -- except in case it leads to an injury to Martell or Trevor -- as he wasn't playing as well as everybody seems to insist he was. 3pt% was up (and terrific), but 2pt % was down and so were some other numbers. Overall, he was more or less as he was on the season last year.

Don't get me wrong -- he's enormously talented and is likely to be a genuine NBA star. But he's 20 years old, and he ain't there yet.

To this point we are playing like a 41 or 42 win team (extrapolating home and road records). That could mean the 4th spot (where we are now -- tied w/ charlotte). Moreover, only Miami and Indy have been better the last 10 games.

It would be fun to be the 4th seed in the playoffs. We'd have peaked as a team; we'd have no real chance to contend. In a couple of years we'd be making excuses and having the kind of false memories people now have in which we were better w/ Gil than ever we actually were. We'd have Ernie until he turned into a statue in the park and have to wait until we were reincarnated as pigeons to have the chance to sit on his shoulders and deposit guano as a way to get back at him.

But... it would be fun for the brief moment prior to our disappearing down the tubes.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1104 » by ozthegandp » Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:26 pm

u know what really sucks. the east is so horrible this yr we're going to make the easily even if we dont deserving it and eg will be resigned as if he accomplished something. 15 teams are better than the 3rd place team in the east right now. and we were in last place just a couple weeks ago.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1105 » by noworriesinmd » Sun Dec 1, 2013 11:25 pm

The one thing that makes me so angry about this team is this:

The race to the bottom is so fierce that if you just try a little bit you can make the playoffs in the East.

This is going to be one of those once in a decade drafts. I took a look at the NBA champions list, and it is dominated with teams with one or more super stars. Detroit was a statistical anomaly. No matter how much I like Indiana, they probably are not going to win a championship. Even if they get past Miami, they will have to deal with OKC.

This is the year that you 'could' get that superstar. No matter how much I'd like to delude myself into thinking that if we do x & y to get championship...the reality is that it is highly unlikely we'll win a championship (unlike MLB or the NFL). One person can make the difference in the NBA, and we don't have a superstar and I don't see how we get one in the future being that we will be a middling team.

TL probably has done this equation. No matter how much EG has destroyed this team,.....the ceiling for this team will be the conference finals. (possibly once in the next few years).

TL will point to this year as a success and validation of their plan...we'll probably take a step back next year just because we were one of the few eastern teams trying...and the other teams have their pieces for the future....but at least we'll have another 20 yrs of EG. SIGH
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1106 » by Nivek » Mon Dec 2, 2013 3:42 pm

noworriesinmd wrote:The one thing that makes me so angry about this team is this:

The race to the bottom is so fierce that if you just try a little bit you can make the playoffs in the East.

This is going to be one of those once in a decade drafts. I took a look at the NBA champions list, and it is dominated with teams with one or more super stars. Detroit was a statistical anomaly. No matter how much I like Indiana, they probably are not going to win a championship. Even if they get past Miami, they will have to deal with OKC.

This is the year that you 'could' get that superstar. No matter how much I'd like to delude myself into thinking that if we do x & y to get championship...the reality is that it is highly unlikely we'll win a championship (unlike MLB or the NFL). One person can make the difference in the NBA, and we don't have a superstar and I don't see how we get one in the future being that we will be a middling team.

TL probably has done this equation. No matter how much EG has destroyed this team,.....the ceiling for this team will be the conference finals. (possibly once in the next few years).

TL will point to this year as a success and validation of their plan...we'll probably take a step back next year just because we were one of the few eastern teams trying...and the other teams have their pieces for the future....but at least we'll have another 20 yrs of EG. SIGH


I was starting to write something about how star players can be found throughout the drafts, but then I remembered how the geniuses running the Wizards traded away next year's first to replace Okafor because they were too smart to add a decent big or two in the offseason.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1107 » by MDStar » Mon Dec 2, 2013 4:04 pm

For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1108 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 2, 2013 4:50 pm

MDStar wrote:For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.

Wall is a "star", but I don't see "superstar" in him. To me, a superstar is a guy who can pretty much carry any team into the playoffs, and will carry a team to the Finals if he has another all star player plus a few good role players. There aren't many superstars in the league. Lebron and Durant to be sure. Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett and Howard were a few years ago. That's about it. I don't see Wall in that class. Wall will probably be in the next tier alongside guys like Westbrook, Melo, Bosh, Love, Griffin, George, Aldridge, Hibbert, Harden. I don't think any of those guys can lead a team to a title by themselves. You need at least two of them - preferably a guard/big combo like Hibbert and George. (Note: Rose, Paul and Curry are all asterisks in my book. I'm not too sure a PG can carry his team to a title no matter how good he is. Rose, Paul and Curry are magnificent players but they don't seem to get passed the hump. Which is another reason to be skeptical that Wall can get it done.)

That's why I'm focused on getting a first rate big man here. It's why I'd trade for Monroe even though he might not be quite in the top tier of bigs. He at least has the potential to be.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1109 » by verbal8 » Mon Dec 2, 2013 5:04 pm

nate33 wrote:That's why I'm focused on getting a first rate big man here. It's why I'd trade for Monroe even though he might not be quite in the top tier of bigs. He at least has the potential to be.


Even if Monroe isn't in the top tier of bigs, I could see him being the center-piece of a trade package to get one. I couldn't see that being the case with most of the bigs that are potentially available in the trade market.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1110 » by FAH1223 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 3:10 am

nate33 wrote:
MDStar wrote:For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.

Wall is a "star", but I don't see "superstar" in him. To me, a superstar is a guy who can pretty much carry any team into the playoffs, and will carry a team to the Finals if he has another all star player plus a few good role players. There aren't many superstars in the league. Lebron and Durant to be sure. Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett and Howard were a few years ago. That's about it. I don't see Wall in that class. Wall will probably be in the next tier alongside guys like Westbrook, Melo, Bosh, Love, Griffin, George, Aldridge, Hibbert, Harden. I don't think any of those guys can lead a team to a title by themselves. You need at least two of them - preferably a guard/big combo like Hibbert and George. (Note: Rose, Paul and Curry are all asterisks in my book. I'm not too sure a PG can carry his team to a title no matter how good he is. Rose, Paul and Curry are magnificent players but they don't seem to get passed the hump. Which is another reason to be skeptical that Wall can get it done.)

That's why I'm focused on getting a first rate big man here. It's why I'd trade for Monroe even though he might not be quite in the top tier of bigs. He at least has the potential to be.


Tony Parker carried the Spurs to the finals last year and with a bad hammy put SA up by 5 with a 3 over LeBron which should have sealed the deal. Though Duncan was having a resurgent season and the advanced stats look like stuff from his prime. All NBA too. He also had a couple great games in the finals too.

Plus Parker did win a finals MVP but I guess that's more to do with CLE having crappy guards and him dominating them.

Wizards are .500 for the first time since 11/3/2009. And if this keeps up, Ernie is going to get an extension. No!! #FireGrunfeld
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1111 » by hands11 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 4:49 am

MDStar wrote:For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.


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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1112 » by leswizards » Tue Dec 3, 2013 10:10 am

FAH1223 wrote:And if this keeps up, Ernie is going to get an extension. No!! #FireGrunfeld


The Wizards are most likely not going to be picking in the top 3 for years to come. Does Ted Leonsis really want a GM who has blown every pick not in the top 3? To keep this team together, Ted Leonsis is probably going to have to be willing to pay the luxury tax. Does Ted Leonsis really want to keep a GM that can only build a team that is very expensive to maintain? I hope Ted realizes the correct answers to these 2 questions and fires Ernie Grunfeld, regardless of how they do this season.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1113 » by FreeBalling » Tue Dec 3, 2013 1:26 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
MDStar wrote:For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.

Wall is a "star", but I don't see "superstar" in him. To me, a superstar is a guy who can pretty much carry any team into the playoffs, and will carry a team to the Finals if he has another all star player plus a few good role players. There aren't many superstars in the league. Lebron and Durant to be sure. Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett and Howard were a few years ago. That's about it. I don't see Wall in that class. Wall will probably be in the next tier alongside guys like Westbrook, Melo, Bosh, Love, Griffin, George, Aldridge, Hibbert, Harden. I don't think any of those guys can lead a team to a title by themselves. You need at least two of them - preferably a guard/big combo like Hibbert and George. (Note: Rose, Paul and Curry are all asterisks in my book. I'm not too sure a PG can carry his team to a title no matter how good he is. Rose, Paul and Curry are magnificent players but they don't seem to get passed the hump. Which is another reason to be skeptical that Wall can get it done.)

That's why I'm focused on getting a first rate big man here. It's why I'd trade for Monroe even though he might not be quite in the top tier of bigs. He at least has the potential to be.


Tony Parker carried the Spurs to the finals last year and with a bad hammy put SA up by 5 with a 3 over LeBron which should have sealed the deal. Though Duncan was having a resurgent season and the advanced stats look like stuff from his prime. All NBA too. He also had a couple great games in the finals too.

Plus Parker did win a finals MVP but I guess that's more to do with CLE having crappy guards and him dominating them.

Wizards are .500 for the first time since 11/3/2009. And if this keeps up, Ernie is going to get an extension. No!! #FireGrunfeld


To be fair here, shouldn't Ernie reap the rewards of success as a GM? The team is playing good defense and starting to gel together.

Lots of people including myself on this board have been very vocal calling for Ernie to be removed.

I have two current issues with Ernie.

1.) MAXING Wall before elite production. IMO - he's never going to be elite, all-star, yes.
Failure here will cause us to SUCK for years. Good reason to fire EG.

2.) Gortat - Ernie has to get him resigned or it's a bad trade. Good reason to fire EG.

Let's say we finish above .500 this year. I think our record will attract other FA's that might not come to a bottom feeder. That's good for our future.




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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1114 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 2:11 pm

FreeBalling wrote:To be fair here, shouldn't Ernie reap the rewards of success as a GM? The team is playing good defense and starting to gel together.

Lots of people including myself on this board have been very vocal calling for Ernie to be removed.

I have two current issues with Ernie.

1.) MAXING Wall before elite production. IMO - he's never going to be elite, all-star, yes.
Failure here will cause us to SUCK for years. Good reason to fire EG.

2.) Gortat - Ernie has to get him resigned or it's a bad trade. Good reason to fire EG.

Let's say we finish above .500 this year. I think our record will attract other FA's that might not come to a bottom feeder. That's good for our future.

No. Because Ernie has built an unsustainable roster that is good only because it pays big money to role players and it benefits from 2 no-brainer high picks who are temporarily outperforming their salary because they are on rookie deals.

The cracks will start to show next year when Wall starts being paid his max salary. We will be able to keep our core 6 players and Porter together, but the rest of the roster will have to be minimum salary guys, which means no depth. (Admittedly, this won't be a big change because we have no depth now thanks to the fact that Ernie's Kids all stink. We will merely be replacing Ernie's Kids with D-Leaguers and walk-ons.)

The spit really hits the fan in 2016 when Beal is up for an extension. Basically, we will lose Nene and we will have no way of replacing him.

The team you see right now is at it's peak. Maybe we win 50 games in a pathetic East if we stay reasonably healthy. We will plateau as Nene and Gortat's decline offset any improvement out of Wall and Beal. Nene's healthy is sure to be a big concern going forward. We will never get much better. We are pretty much the Atlanta Hawks now. Respectable, but never a threat to compete. Only we are pushing the luxtax just to maintain it.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1115 » by MDStar » Tue Dec 3, 2013 2:12 pm

hands11 wrote:
MDStar wrote:For all this talk about next year’s draft and how we should be tanking to try and get a Superstar, I pose this question to the group?

What if we already have our Superstar in Wall? Has that ship sailed?

He was our #1 Pick, the supposed face of the franchise, who in his 4th year seems to be taking the leap from being a good player to being something better.

I write that because the way I see it, Wall is on his way to be a Top 10-15 player in the league. I also see Beal as a fringe All Star 2 guard for years to come. In my opinion, while we absolutely need more talent in the 2nd half of our roster, I just don't see the need for a Superstar prospect that's worth tanking for. We need a better GM who is capable of building a properly balanced roster, not another top 5 pick.

While that would be awesome and a God send, i guess all I’m saying is that it's not absolutely needed in order for us to be a top level team. We already have the building blocks, we just need a better builder.


FYI.... Thats not a pose... Its a let me remind you.. again.


Thanks... I guess. :-?
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1116 » by hands11 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 2:44 pm

nate33 wrote:
FreeBalling wrote:To be fair here, shouldn't Ernie reap the rewards of success as a GM? The team is playing good defense and starting to gel together.

Lots of people including myself on this board have been very vocal calling for Ernie to be removed.

I have two current issues with Ernie.

1.) MAXING Wall before elite production. IMO - he's never going to be elite, all-star, yes.
Failure here will cause us to SUCK for years. Good reason to fire EG.

2.) Gortat - Ernie has to get him resigned or it's a bad trade. Good reason to fire EG.

Let's say we finish above .500 this year. I think our record will attract other FA's that might not come to a bottom feeder. That's good for our future.

No. Because Ernie has built an unsustainable roster that is good only because it pays big money to role players and it benefits from 2 no-brainer high picks who are temporarily outperforming their salary because they are on rookie deals.

The cracks will start to show next year when Wall starts being paid his max salary. We will be able to keep our core 6 players and Porter together, but the rest of the roster will have to be minimum salary guys, which means no depth. (Admittedly, this won't be a big change because we have no depth now thanks to the fact that Ernie's Kids all stink. We will merely be replacing Ernie's Kids with D-Leaguers and walk-ons.)

The spit really hits the fan in 2016 when Beal is up for an extension. Basically, we will lose Nene and we will have no way of replacing him.

The team you see right now is at it's peak. Maybe we win 50 games in a pathetic East. We will plateau as Nene and Gortat's decline offset any improvement out of Wall and Beal. We will never get better. We are pretty much the Atlanta Hawks now. Respectable, but never a threat to compete. Only we are pushing the luxtax just to maintain it.


We will see what happens when we see what happens. Lots here have been predicting wrong so I'm worried about tomorrow just yet. Getting some value draft picks would really help and to do that, they need to move EG into some other capacity and bring in someone else to run the draft.

Wall will always likely be overpaid some given other PGs production. But this year he is likely a bargain. Personally, I don't think the new CBA lends itself toward overpaying a PG. There are to many other pieces you need to be a great team. Question is, could they really get away with anything other than maxing Wall given where the franchise had been and where they wanted to go? If not, they were going have to eventually get to the boarder or over the cap to be a really good team. But that's not that unusual for a top contending team. I don't think Ted will have a problem going over the cap when the time comes.

As for EG, if they let him walk, EG will have compiled enough of a resume under Ted to separate what he did with Ted from what happened under Abe. If nothing else, he could get a gig as the guy you hire to tank and rebuild.

Right now the key thing to focus on for me is how to they turn Booker, Kevin S, Singleton and maybe Glen and Maynor into complimentary bench players. I think that group is a little stale.

They are young enough with Wall, Beal, Otto and Ves to go with vets of Trevor A, Nene, Gortat, Webster and maybe bringing back Oakafor to have a solid core. They just need the right bench and that mostly about adding a PF and the right SG/PG.

Gotta see what Otto has. That is key right now. Plus they need some luck on who wants to resign here and for what. Trevor A at near MLE would really help.

Lots is up in the air, but they do have Wall and Beal. They can always clear cap and reboot around them.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1117 » by FAH1223 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 3:35 pm

Hands, we have no Center prospect of the future.

We have no backup PG.

And we could use a PF.

Bad drafting and bad cap management there.
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1118 » by payitforward » Tue Dec 3, 2013 3:40 pm

As I wrote in last night's game thread: this year...

"...we have achieved average, and we should be able to sustain it. We should or at least we may even be a little better than average.

"And we've gotten there in the 4th year of a rebuild on the basis of a #1 pick, two #3 picks, a #6 pick, 3-4 other mid-round one picks, and the acquisition of a $13m-a-year player, a $14m-a-year player, and a rental player whom we'll likely re-sign for $11m+ and for whose services this year we will have given up a mid-round 1 pick."

Anyone who thinks that Ernie's "rebuild" is worth a new contract is a fool. That includes Ted.

My hope is that if we have a good year, Ernie -- who is @65 -- will retire!
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1119 » by closg00 » Tue Dec 3, 2013 4:15 pm

Amen PIF
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Re: Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing 

Post#1120 » by montestewart » Tue Dec 3, 2013 4:35 pm

Yeah, EG should spend more time with his family and finally start dealing with the syphilis he's had since college.

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