Official Trade Thread - Part XXV

[verbal8]

Nate, I don't like your bland assurance that we can somehow pickup a backup PG through the draft or free agency. That's what we've been trying to do since we drafted Wall and up until now all efforts have failed. I think you need to cash in one of our significant assets for a backup PG.

But teams with good GMs have been able to address that role without spending significant assets. I think using the BAE was the right asset to use. The problem is it was used on the wrong target.

[pancakes3]

Sorry, but I still think Asik vs Gortat is a marginal argument at best. Having a good (not just serviceable) backup guard and a backup/replacement for Nene at PF would have a far greater impact on our team than the swapping of Gortat and Asik both from a talent as well as a cap standpoint imo.

[nate33]

Sorry, but I still think Asik vs Gortat is a marginal argument at best. Having a good (not just serviceable) backup guard and a backup/replacement for Nene at PF would have a far greater impact on our team than the swapping of Gortat and Asik both from a talent as well as a cap standpoint imo.

We clearly need a good backup guard, but we don't have the assets to get one unless we give up one of our 6 good players. You mentioned Ariza for Jack, but I think the loss of Ariza hurts us more than the addition of Jack helps us.

In general, I think backup PG's can be found cheaply. Every year, one or two good ones come out of the 2nd round. You can also find them with the vet minimum or the LLE.

[fishercob]

On the issue of Gortat's age: while Gortat is indeed older than Asik by two and a half years, he has not logged heavy minutes during his career -- less than 23 mpg. By way of comparison, Nene has played 29+ mpg over his career, Okafor 32 mpg, Noah 29, Chandler 29, etc.

Gortat has less tread on his tires than such younger players as Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Roy Hibbert and Andrew Bynum (even with all the time he's missed). He's only played 1000 more minutes -- 30ish games worth -- than Greg Monroe. He may have even less relative wear and tear given that he started playing basketballs seriously at 18.


The point is, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Gortat as aging or old -- even three years into his next deal. He's been very durable during his career. I think his foot injury last year was the only lower body injury he has had, and there were whispers that he could have returned sooner than he did (things were bad in PHX last year).

[nate33]

Yeah, I don't think age is a huge issue with Gortat. He'll be rock solid for at least 3 more years before age starts to slow him. But the same low mileage argument also applies to Asik.

But even ignoring age, I'd rather have the elite defender/bad offensive player at center than a average defender/good offensive player at center. Centers are involved in something like 50% of all defensive plays. Having an elite defensive center makes a huge impact. On offense, teams can generally dictate where the shots come from. Having one bad offensive player is something you can hide.

[Dat2U]

But even ignoring age, I'd rather have the elite defender/bad offensive player at center than a average defender/good offensive player at center. Centers are involved in something like 50% of all defensive plays. Having an elite defensive center makes a huge impact. On offense, teams can generally dictate where the shots come from. Having one bad offensive player is something you can hide.

My feelings exactly. Couldn't have said it any better...

[fishercob]

But even ignoring age, I'd rather have the elite defender/bad offensive player at center than a average defender/good offensive player at center. Centers are involved in something like 50% of all defensive plays. Having an elite defensive center makes a huge impact. On offense, teams can generally dictate where the shots come from. Having one bad offensive player is something you can hide.

My feelings exactly. Couldn't have said it any better...

I don't disagree with this. But in reality, we likely don't have a choice between the two. In fact, it's been reported that we indeed went after Asik first (and thus seemingly preferred him), but the price was way, way too high. Hopefully Gortat's and the Wiz's defense can continue to improve.

[GeeWiz]

I don't really like it. We would be trading a player perceived to have a lot of offensive and defensive potential for essentially a one way offensive big. Secondarily, we would be making that trade knowing that we might be able to just keep Porter and sign Monroe outright.

Think about what the Knicks did with Melo. Granted, the Knicks are never a good example, but rather than risking another team signing him, the Knicks traded for Melo. Was it the right move? Probably not, but if we were to be proposed that deal, I'd jump on it. Plus, the bird rights of Gortat and Ariza come into play, as they are retained opposed to losing them once we potentially sign Monroe.


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[GeeWiz]

On a side note, I proposed a similar Porter-for-Monroe swap in one of the Pistons threads, and somebody said:

Beal, Porter, Unprotected Future first
For
Monroe, KCP

Its disgusting how underrated Beal is around the league...


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[pancakes3]

Monroe to me is just a younger Nene without the foot issues. He's a good player and at times he can be a great player. However - personal preference aside - I wouldn't count on him to be messianic or anything.

Edit regarding back-up pg's - Maybe Ariza for Jack is not getting enough value in return but we should certainly be thinking along those lines. Dragic? One of Sacramento's guards? Shved? Also the trade piece doesn't have to be Ariza. It can be our untested waif model of a draft pick or ::snerk:: Maynor himself.

[Zonkerbl]

On a side note, I proposed a similar Porter-for-Monroe swap in one of the Pistons threads, and somebody said:

Beal, Porter, Unprotected Future first
For
Monroe, KCP

Its disgusting how underrated Beal is around the league...


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Around the league? Was he a GM? Or some ignoramus on a discussion forum?

Counter-offer with Seraphin-Singleton-Vesely for an unprotected first from them and Drummond. Makes as much sense.

[payitforward]

Pistons would be looking for more. Monroe is a good big man, young and a known quantity at this point. Otto has not played a game and is injured.

I'm not sure they'll get more. Monroe is about to cost a lot of money and he's having a relatively bad year thanks to the poor chemistry and spacing on his team. They may be unwilling to match a high offer this offseason and may be thinking that they're better off trading him now for value.

Porter is locked into a cheap rookie deal for 3 more years and fills a big hole on that roster.

Not a huge Monroe fan, though yes he is certainly good. Still NO WAY, they trade him for an untested, injured rookie! What an idea!

[dckingsfan]

Just random thoughts... Asik would be a good fit now in NY. Looks like need to dump Shumpert. So Asik for Bargnani and Shumpert + their trade exemption.

[payitforward]

Nate, I don't like your bland assurance that we can somehow pickup a backup PG through the draft or free agency. That's what we've been trying to do since we drafted Wall and up until now all efforts have failed. I think you need to cash in one of our significant assets for a backup PG.

Or bring Sato over...

No particular reason a trade brings us anything better -- we have had plenty of opportunities to pick up a good back up pg via FA and/or a good candidate w/ a Round 2 pick and haven't done it. The problem isn't the "how" we do it, it's "who" is doing the picking/signing/trading.

[LyricalRico]

Edit regarding back-up pg's - Maybe Ariza for Jack is not getting enough value in return but we should certainly be thinking along those lines. Dragic? One of Sacramento's guards? Shved? Also the trade piece doesn't have to be Ariza. It can be our untested waif model of a draft pick or ::snerk:: Maynor himself.

Booker+2nd for Shved works for me.

[verbal8]

Just random thoughts... Asik would be a good fit now in NY. Looks like need to dump Shumpert. So Asik for Bargnani and Shumpert + their trade exemption.

Why would Houston be interested? Shumpert isn't anything special and plays the same position as one of Houston's best players. Most of the league is aware that Bargnani doesn't help teams win.

From a cap perspective it would hinder the Rockets flexibility, although from a cash perspective it would save them the ballon payments. I can see the New York teams not caring about the extra salary, but they don't have the assets to land Asik.

[dckingsfan]

Just random thoughts... Asik would be a good fit now in NY. Looks like need to dump Shumpert. So Asik for Bargnani and Shumpert + their trade exemption.

Why would Houston be interested? Shumpert isn't anything special and plays the same position as one of Houston's best players. Most of the league is aware that Bargnani doesn't help teams win.

From a cap perspective it would hinder the Rockets flexibility, although from a cash perspective it would save them the ballon payments. I can see the New York teams not caring about the extra salary, but they don't have the assets to land Asik.

I think you have it - Houston cares about the balloon payment and Houston doesn't. Shumpert is a good backup for Harden. But you are right, this was just the framework... probably needs to involve another team.

Then again, Houston may have to settle for expiring contracts. No one seems willing to part with any significant assets for Asik.

[LyricalRico]

Would Cleveland be interested in Nene+Ariza to keep their season alive?

Wizards trade: Nene, Ariza and Porter
Wizards receive: Verajao, Monroe, Jerebko, Gee and Siva

Cavs trade: Verajao, Waiters, Gee and Zeller
Cavs receive: Nene and Ariza

Pistons trade: Monroe, Jerebko and Siva
Pistons receive: Porter, Waiters and Zeller

Based on the Checker, CLE would have to include a bit more salary filler but that's the basic framework of the deal. The Cavs get a veteran frontcourt makeover to help Kyrie get to the playoffs. Detroit gets two perimeter prospects and avoids paying Monroe's new salary. Washington solves most of it's frontcourt issues in one move.

Follow up with Booker for Shved and we're good to go.

Gortat/Verajao
Monroe/Jerebko
Webster/Gee
Beal/Shved
Wall/Siva

[GeeWiz]

Would Cleveland be interested in Nene+Ariza to keep their season alive?

Wizards trade: Nene, Ariza and Porter
Wizards receive: Verajao, Monroe, Jerebko, Gee and Siva

Cavs trade: Verajao, Waiters, Gee and Zeller
Cavs receive: Nene and Ariza

Pistons trade: Monroe, Jerebko and Siva
Pistons receive: Porter, Waiters and Zeller

Based on the Checker, CLE would have to include a bit more salary filler but that's the basic framework of the deal. The Cavs get a veteran frontcourt makeover to help Kyrie get to the playoffs. Detroit gets two perimeter prospects and avoids paying Monroe's new salary. Washington solves most of it's frontcourt issues in one move.

Follow up with Booker for Shved and we're good to go.

Gortat/Verajao
Monroe/Jerebko
Webster/Gee
Beal/Shved
Wall/Siva

Get Monroe AND bolster our decimated bench?

I can see the Wiz and Pistons pulling the trigger. The Cavs are a tossup, but boy could they use Ariza right now.


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[fishercob]

What do people think about bringing Jarrett Jack home to the DMV? He's 30 and playing the worst ball of his career. He's signed for two more years at $6.3M/season. Not pretty.

OTOH, Cleveland could find themselves in a crappy position this summer as a bad team with little cap room (if they keep Bynum and Varajao). They might be willing to unload Jack for mere expirings in order to give them some flexibility moving forward

Here's an interesting Mike Prada piece on Jack.