Packers @ Lions Game Thread

[whatthe_buck!?]

Good lord, I'm not even trying to argue with you. Moss' name was brought up in this one to discuss the magnitude of signing out there, of which there weren't really of those this past offseason.

I know that. Good lord is right. You claimed that I brought him up and were upset that I started talking about him. Well the reason I started talking about him is because u brought him up. Can u see why I felt this one was worth clearing up? Lol

[El Duderino]

Of course I'd support Charles Woodson. Fwiw, Ellerbe has somewhat "earned" his contract so far. I'm just asking which guys compare to Reggie White or Woodson in their primes available cheap?

I'm saying of course I'd be fine picking up free agents but that isn't our issue. It's been poor draft picks lately and yeah, we haven't found a great free agent. But given who's out there those blaming not going into free agency is a poor argument. Of course if a Moss-esque acquisition was missed you could criticize.

You can talk about building through the draft, free agency, trades, whatever way you want... it doesn't matter when your impact players keep going down with major injuries. That is the real problem here, IMO. A close to healthy Packer squad (with just a reasonable amount of injuries) is a title contender this year and everyone here knows it.

Back-up QB was clearly not addressed properly as we can see with the continuous horrid performances.

But let's not act like we never add talent to our team. We are missing Pro Bowl level players at S and ILB (Collins/Bishop) due to injuries. We are missing a top 5 slot corner (Hayward) due to injury. We have been shuffling guys in and out all damn year due to guys continuously getting banged up. Guys who used to be Pro Bowl level in Raji and Williams declined out of nowhere.

I'm not down on TT. I'm not down on MM. I hope those guys continue to do what they do. Capers? I could see getting rid of him, but I certainly wouldn't put all of the blame on him either. This season has been littered with unfortunate circumstances.

I don't buy that the complete collapse of the defense can be mainly just dismissed because of injuries.

Obviously the Collins injury was a killer, but it didn't happen this season. Ted has had two years to address the safety position and it's arguably the weakest area of the roster. Not only that, Burnett was given 30 million dollars and played more like a fringe starting safety, not a highly paid one.

As for Bishop, his injury was unfortunate, but lets not make him out to be Patrick Willis. So he goes down and Ted pays Brad Jones pretty good money. So far like Burnett, Jones has been more liability than asset after getting paid.

It's mainly been the front seven which has been getting annihilated since Rodgers got hurt and i have a very hard time blaming injuries for that. That front seven has been reasonably healthy considering that nearly every team in the league has some injuries there by this time of the season. Yet our front seven has been getting whipped vs the run almost like Wisconsin is playing Indiana or Northwestern in college football.

This season is likely a lost cause by now and odds are Capers will be replaced, but i really hope that Ted doesn't do as you are when evaluating the defensive collapse this year by mainly just blaming injuries and Capers. Like McCarthy correctly stated, when a defensive coordinator puts 8 guys in the box to stop the run, then it's largely a matter of a physical battle between the front seven/safeties and an OL/tight ends/fullbacks, not scheme. Either hold your gaps or get pushed out of them. Either get off blocks or get stuck like velcro. Either make tackles or have a back run right through them. This front seven and group of safeties have gotten flat out dominated vs the run since the second Rodgers went down and scheme/injuries to me are only a relatively small excuse as to why.

[rilamann]

This season is likely a lost cause by now and odds are Capers will be replaced, but i really hope that Ted doesn't do as you are when evaluating the defensive collapse this year by mainly just blaming injuries and Capers. Like McCarthy correctly stated, when a defensive coordinator puts 8 guys in the box to stop the run, then it's largely a matter of a physical battle between the front seven/safeties and an OL/tight ends/fullbacks, not scheme. Either hold your gaps or get pushed out of them. Either get off blocks or get stuck like velcro. Either make tackles or have a back run right through them. This front seven and group of safeties have gotten flat out dominated vs the run since the second Rodgers went down and scheme/injuries to me are only a relatively small excuse as to why.

+1000

[Newz]

I don't buy that the complete collapse of the defense can be mainly just dismissed because of injuries.

Obviously the Collins injury was a killer, but it didn't happen this season. Ted has had two years to address the safety position and it's arguably the weakest area of the roster. Not only that, Burnett was given 30 million dollars and played more like a fringe starting safety, not a highly paid one.

As for Bishop, his injury was unfortunate, but lets not make him out to be Patrick Willis. So he goes down and Ted pays Brad Jones pretty good money. So far like Burnett, Jones has been more liability than asset after getting paid.

It's mainly been the front seven which has been getting annihilated since Rodgers got hurt and i have a very hard time blaming injuries for that. That front seven has been reasonably healthy considering that nearly every team in the league has some injuries there by this time of the season. Yet our front seven has been getting whipped vs the run almost like Wisconsin is playing Indiana or Northwestern in college football.

This season is likely a lost cause by now and odds are Capers will be replaced, but i really hope that Ted doesn't do as you are when evaluating the defensive collapse this year by mainly just blaming injuries and Capers. Like McCarthy correctly stated, when a defensive coordinator puts 8 guys in the box to stop the run, then it's largely a matter of a physical battle between the front seven/safeties and an OL/tight ends/fullbacks, not scheme. Either hold your gaps or get pushed out of them. Either get off blocks or get stuck like velcro. Either make tackles or have a back run right through them. This front seven and group of safeties have gotten flat out dominated vs the run since the second Rodgers went down and scheme/injuries to me are only a relatively small excuse as to why.

I'm not saying that injuries are the only problem that we have as a team. We are clearly weak in the front seven defensively as outside of Clay and Daniels we don't really have any impact players. Jones could potentially be one, Perry still has a chance as well. But we certainly need more talent there. Safety is weak, probably the weakest position on our team. Injuries have significantly weakened the middle of our defense as having a healthy Bishop and Collins (or even one of them) would be a huge boost for our D. We need upgrades at safety and ILB. We need Jones to become a player.

I wasn't just talking about the defense with the injuries thing and it being our primary problem though. I am talking about if this team has relatively good health, then we are (in my opinion) an obvious Super Bowl contender despite the flaws of our defense. Rodgers with a cast of Nelson, Jones, Cobb, Boykin, Finley, Lacy, Harris, etc. around him is going to consistently put up a lot of points and in turn that will make the defense even more effective because it makes the other team far more one dimensional.

But I don't know how what I posted translated to "TT has nothing to worry about, we're fine, don't worry, nothing has to change, when we are healthy we have no weaknesses".

I'm saying our biggest problem as a team is that we need to stay healthy. Rodgers in particular needs to stay healthy. I also don't think anyone logical would argue that with a healthy team that we are a real threat to win it all.

[raysbookclub]

This season is likely a lost cause by now and odds are Capers will be replaced, but i really hope that Ted doesn't do as you are when evaluating the defensive collapse this year by mainly just blaming injuries and Capers. Like McCarthy correctly stated, when a defensive coordinator puts 8 guys in the box to stop the run, then it's largely a matter of a physical battle between the front seven/safeties and an OL/tight ends/fullbacks, not scheme. Either hold your gaps or get pushed out of them. Either get off blocks or get stuck like velcro. Either make tackles or have a back run right through them. This front seven and group of safeties have gotten flat out dominated vs the run since the second Rodgers went down and scheme/injuries to me are only a relatively small excuse as to why.

Yeah, we do have a player problem. But when a defense plays this bad, it's not just they're not talented enough. Pick the worst starting personnel in the league, and they'll still be stouter than this if properly motivated. There's discouragement among the defensive players, obviously, and it can't help that Capers seems basically beyond accountability. I wonder if the same goes for Hawk, who looked like a cut candidate before re-working his contract. He and Burnett are supposed to be the QBs of the defense. Well, this defense has been mostly poor for 2 1/2 years under their leadership, when does a change happen?

[El Duderino]

This season is likely a lost cause by now and odds are Capers will be replaced, but i really hope that Ted doesn't do as you are when evaluating the defensive collapse this year by mainly just blaming injuries and Capers. Like McCarthy correctly stated, when a defensive coordinator puts 8 guys in the box to stop the run, then it's largely a matter of a physical battle between the front seven/safeties and an OL/tight ends/fullbacks, not scheme. Either hold your gaps or get pushed out of them. Either get off blocks or get stuck like velcro. Either make tackles or have a back run right through them. This front seven and group of safeties have gotten flat out dominated vs the run since the second Rodgers went down and scheme/injuries to me are only a relatively small excuse as to why.

Yeah, we do have a player problem. But when a defense plays this bad, it's not just they're not talented enough. Pick the worst starting personnel in the league, and they'll still be stouter than this if properly motivated. There's discouragement among the defensive players, obviously, and it can't help that Capers seems basically beyond accountability. I wonder if the same goes for Hawk, who looked like a cut candidate before re-working his contract. He and Burnett are supposed to be the QBs of the defense. Well, this defense has been mostly poor for 2 1/2 years under their leadership, when does a change happen?

I don't buy that the defensive problems are a motivation issue. When Rodgers went down, that was a time for the defense to rally around being even better to help win games while a backup QB was playing. Instead of doing that, the defense wet the bed each game.

Players in a spot like that shouldn't need coaches to motivate them, personal pride, a strong desire to win, and professionalism should be more than enough. This is the NFL, not pop warner football. Those guys on defense get paid to produce in a cutthroat league without guaranteed contracts. If they need coaches to motivate them to play hard and do their jobs, some of those players will quickly find themselves out of a job and they know this. So i'm just not buying your argument. What i think has happened instead is the talent on defense has been overrated by some Packer fans, especially on the front seven and the safeties suck. That is why they've been getting whipped vs the run, even when Capers puts 8 in the box. The players on defense are simply getting manhandled by opposing offensive lines and tight ends.

It's somewhat similar to games where the Wisconsin Badgers run all over an overmatched college defense. It isn't unmotivated players on weak defenses that allow the Badgers to run wild on them, it's not being able to physically prevent Wisconsin lineman from owning the line of scrimmage which i'm sure gets demoralizing. The Packer defensive players have looked demoralized of late also after they keep getting whipped up front, but that's on them. This defense needs both a new coordinator and talent overhaul.