Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

[JordansBulls]

Best player in the league, says who? Don't make empty claims when it's exactly what we're trying to debate.

What's not debatable is that Jordan had a very talented cast around him(and it's not even a hypothetical, they won 55 games exactly the year that Jordan missed, so you don't even have to ask, how good would that team be without Jordan), and by reasonable assumption, you cannot say that Hakeem's team could have won the same number of games without him(in fact, as I've shown before, that team would have competed for the #1 pick. Compare that team without Hakeem to last year's Cavs and they are not any better).

Plenty of guys could have done what Hakeem did, who? Name me a guy who won a championship without another Hall-of-Famer on his team.

Jordan did not have a very talented cast when he first won his first title, that team would have been a lottery team without him. Not to mention MJ was the only allstar on the team in 1991 when he won and actually beat a 2x defending back to back champions to win. Hakeem lucked out by not having to deal with a 3x defending champions and the #1 seed in his conference. Like I said anyone could have won in those circumstances. Now had Hakeem dominated the competition and beat Seattle and the 3x defending champion Bulls with MJ that would be a different story. He barely got by the Knicks and was even down 3-2 in the series on the verge of elimination in game 6.

Scottie Pippen with 20 PER and Grant with 17 PER(same as Thorpe), and Phil is not very talented? That's more talented than Hakeem's cast in the 2nd championship(again Thorpe was traded, and no Phil), and not even close to as bad as Hakeem's cast in 93-94, try again.

Where did Phil coach before the Bulls? Exactly!!! He came to the Bulls as they were already making progress, just like Avery Johnson came to the Mavs.
Pippen was a role player at first and became a star later on.
Hakeem didn't even lead his team in win shares for the 2nd title. Drexler had more total win shares all season than Hakeem in the season and in the playoffs.
Not to mention he had a guy who led a team to the finals twice as the man in Drexler.

[aol4532]

Win share is a useless stat. Just looking at their numbers alone(not taking into account defense, which is a chasm. Is Drexler even an average defender at that point?), the fact that Drexler has more win shares does not bother you? As far as where did Phil coach before the Bulls, where did Rudy T coach before the Rockets? If one coach is smarter than the other after looking back, and neither has prior experience, then it stands that he must also be smarter, when they started.

[Gregoire]

These debate became more and more interesting:
1. Lebron playing on astronomical level right now, so if he will keep pace, his 2014 potentially peak season could became number one peak ever.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1282469 - these thread show how insane impact Levrn have right now.
2. But with all of these... These thread viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1286698
shows us even deeper and concretically how amazinf was Mj at his peak... Its just another planet.
So the debate between these two in our minds after 2014 season promise to be great.

[Gregoire]

Actually, I'd like to take back my prior post. My actual rankings are:

1) Shaq 2000
2) Jordan 1989
3) Hakeem 1994
4) Jordan 1991
5) Wilt 1962
6) Oscar 1962
7) Jordan 1988
8) Kareem 1971
9) Wilt 1967
10) Magic 1982

Yep, LeBron 2013 doesn't even crack the top 10, in my opinion.

You have Magic 82 over Lebron 13? Its very strange, please, explain...

[Effercon]

You have Magic 82 over Lebron 13? Its very strange, please, explain...

18.6/9.6/9.5/2.7 in the 1980's, long after the sky-high tempo of the 60's had passed. A couple more rebounds here and couple more assists there, and we'd be revering Magic 1982 as we do Oscar 1962 (in fact, we'd probably revere it more because of tempo discrepancies). Also, that's an outstanding FG% - yes, LeBron shot 56% last season, but I think 54% as a guard is more impressive than 56% as a forward, due to the greater likelihood of taking a jump shot/contested shot. Couple that with a pretty-much impeccable overall playoff performance, a ring with a Finals MVP... yeah. A phenomenal season by both players, but I think Magic's was better.

[parapooper]

You have Magic 82 over Lebron 13? Its very strange, please, explain...

18.6/9.6/9.5/2.7 in the 1980's, long after the sky-high tempo of the 60's had passed. A couple more rebounds here and couple more assists there, and we'd be revering Magic 1982 as we do Oscar 1962 (in fact, we'd probably revere it more because of tempo discrepancies). Also, that's an outstanding FG% - yes, LeBron shot 56% last season, but I think 54% as a guard is more impressive than 56% as a forward, due to the greater likelihood of taking a jump shot/contested shot. Couple that with a pretty-much impeccable overall playoff performance, a ring with a Finals MVP... yeah. A phenomenal season by both players, but I think Magic's was better.

Not sure how pace helps Magic's numbers vs. LeBron. They would have been 16.3/8.5/8.4 at Miami's pace last year.

It's also still striking how differently other players are judged compared to LeBron. Nothing against Magic, but if LeBron averaged 15.3/9.9/8.2 (pace adjusted using RS LAL vs MIA pace) over a postseason, had the lowest postseason PER of his life and played subpar defense would you apply the same standard to him and call that "a pretty much impeccable overall playoff performance"?

[wenzi]

Somebody really thinks Lebrons impact on defense in significantly worse than Shaqs (if at all)? Its very very dishonest.
At the moment I can rank them like these
Offense:
1.Jordan
2.Lebron/Shaq (learn to James)
3.Hakeem
Defense
1.Hakeem
2.Lebron/Shaq (learn to Shaq)
3.Jordan
Overall:
1.Jordan
2.Shaq/Lebron
3.Hakeem

I think these thread is relevant.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1274796&start=90

JAMES OVER JORDAN ON DEFENCE
hisdefence is overrated,he never shut down anyone,and always get ppl drive pass him,wt he can do nothing more than blocking shots on fastbreak,that's all

[wenzi]

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Lebron

Lebron last? no way IMO...

HAKEEM WAS MUCH MORE DOMINANT ON BOTH ENDS THAN LEBRON EVER BEEN

[Quotatious]

HAKEEM WAS MUCH MORE DOMINANT ON BOTH ENDS THAN LEBRON EVER BEEN

Defensively, he sure is, but offensively, IMO LeBron is better. I kind of get your point though, as I think Hakeem can be argued over LBJ (although I disagree), but defensively, Hakeem is better and it's not even close.

[Gregoire]

HAKEEM WAS MUCH MORE DOMINANT ON BOTH ENDS THAN LEBRON EVER BEEN

Defensively, he sure is, but offensively, IMO LeBron is better. I kind of get your point though, as I think Hakeem can be argued over LBJ (although I disagree), but defensively, Hakeem is better and it's not even close.

Offensively peak Lebron is better than peak Hakeem and maybe peak Shaq...

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Plenty of guys could of have done what Hakeem did and win a title when the defending champions lose the best player in the league and the #1 seed in your conference who is your nememis is out of the playoffs early on. Now had Hakeem got thru the Sonics and Bulls that would be a different story. Hakeem had HCA in each series and was even down 3-2 in a series with it, something that didn't happen with some all time greats with HCA.

I'd like to know a list of NBA greats that could've led the 93-94 playoff Rockets in all major statistical categories like Hakeem did, given no one before or since has performed such a feat. Jordan certainly isn't one of them. You couldn't suffer 3 straight lousy games a la 'MJ BEFORE he retired in 93 vs. NY to start a series and expect to get out of the West in Hakeem's shoes. In fact ya boy was down 0-2 to start that series, so your "argument" is quite laughable.

Your hero wasn't ever much of a problem for Hakeem and the Rockets, not exactly sure the benefit was in "avoiding" him.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Win share is a useless stat. Just looking at their numbers alone(not taking into account defense, which is a chasm. Is Drexler even an average defender at that point?), the fact that Drexler has more win shares does not bother you? As far as where did Phil coach before the Bulls, where did Rudy T coach before the Rockets? If one coach is smarter than the other after looking back, and neither has prior experience, then it stands that he must also be smarter, when they started.

Yeah the revisionist Jordan Jockers would have you believe Olajuwon was winning when Jordan was gone.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwR8ZGmLJg[/youtube]

It's comical how Jordan and Pippen choking away Game 6 at home vs. Orlando (not even mentioning Jordan getting stripped by Nick Anderson in Game 1) is something they try to sweep under the carpet and pretend never happened during the Rockets' 2nd title run. Jordan would dominate peak Hakeem and yet he and Chicago got served by Shaq in his 3rd year? While Hakeem in the same week led Houston back from the biggest deficit any NBA champion has ever overcome down 3-1 on the road vs. Phoenix? How is it Hakeem's fault Jordan came up short with the odds in his favour at home while he had to stave off elimination repeatedly in the same playoffs?

What form of peak Jordan swept a NBA Finals a la Hakeem/Houston in '95?

[aol4532]

We all know how special Hakeem's 1st championship was, but in his 2nd championship, the Rockets were the only team in history to have beaten two 60+ win teams and 2 55+ win teams(Lebron has yet to beat a 60+ win team to win his championships. Quite frankly, dude has been so lucky with all the injuries. Overwhelming help + injuries to opponents, if he doesn't win the championship, it's a massive failure. And Barkley did play all 7 games against the Rockets in 94-95, so I don't know what injury to Barkley that guy was talking about).

No teams in history have beaten 3 55+ win (usually the mark of a contender) teams, much less 4, and I'm guessing very few teams have beaten two 60+ teams(maybe even none.) Honestly, each of Hakeem's championships should count as two just because they were so special and unique.

[spectacularmove]

We all know how special Hakeem's 1st championship was, but in his 2nd championship, the Rockets were the only team in history to have beaten two 60+ win teams and 2 55+ win teams(Lebron has yet to beat a 60+ win team to win his championships. Quite frankly, dude has been so lucky with all the injuries. Overwhelming help + injuries to opponents, if he doesn't win the championship, it's a massive failure. And Barkley did play all 7 games against the Rockets in 94-95, so I don't know what injury to Barkley that guy was talking about).

No teams in history have beaten 3 55+ win (usually the mark of a contender) teams, much less 4, and I'm guessing very few teams have beaten two 60+ teams(maybe even none.) Honestly, each of Hakeem's championships should count as two just because they were so special and unique.

Excelent post. Hakeem was ridiculous.
I don't understand how people can put 13 Lebron in this group, with his finals performance you can't put him in this company, 12 Lebron on the other hand, that version belongs for sure.
For me it's clear that MJ is the right answer, mainly because of the mental edge that he has. Can you really describe any of the other 3 as a "ferocious competitor"?? Maybe, Maybe Hakeem, but certainly not in the same level as MJ.

[Gregoire]

We all know how special Hakeem's 1st championship was, but in his 2nd championship, the Rockets were the only team in history to have beaten two 60+ win teams and 2 55+ win teams(Lebron has yet to beat a 60+ win team to win his championships. Quite frankly, dude has been so lucky with all the injuries. Overwhelming help + injuries to opponents, if he doesn't win the championship, it's a massive failure. And Barkley did play all 7 games against the Rockets in 94-95, so I don't know what injury to Barkley that guy was talking about).

No teams in history have beaten 3 55+ win (usually the mark of a contender) teams, much less 4, and I'm guessing very few teams have beaten two 60+ teams(maybe even none.) Honestly, each of Hakeem's championships should count as two just because they were so special and unique.

Excelent post. Hakeem was ridiculous.
I don't understand how people can put 13 Lebron in this group, with his finals performance you can't put him in this company, 12 Lebron on the other hand, that version belongs for sure.
For me it's clear that MJ is the right answer, mainly because of the mental edge that he has. Can you really describe any of the other 3 as a "ferocious competitor"?? Maybe, Maybe Hakeem, but certainly not in the same level as MJ.

And how do you rank other three after MJ here?

[Reservoirdawgs]

Lebron has yet to beat a 60+ win team to win his championships.

\

I'm not sure why you are simply narrowing it to his championships, but given your very narrow specifications that would leave only one season (last year) since the season before there was a lockout (practically impossible to win 60+ games when there were only 66 out there). During the 2011-12 season, the Heat beat the Celtics (39-27, a 59 win%) and the Thunder (47-19, a 71 win%).

[WillyJakkz]

Hard to separate the individual achievement from the team achievement in these topics when it turns into the team as a whole winning the championship and the impact said player had in winning the title which is kinda the turn this comparison has taken and with that said the ranking should be:

1. Jordan: The guy practically won those rings by himself although they had a misstep vs the Blazers where the bench saved them in Game 6 I believe and the starters returned to bring home the win but other than that he was on a completely different tier than any player in the League.

2. Hakeem: C version of Michael Jordan during this span where I would actually be shocked when the guy missed a shot. Put Houston on his back and had an unbelievable run that was legendary which created his legacy and in my mind made him the best player during his 2x championship run. Never faced the Sonics during his PO run and good thing they dodged them cause Seattle had their number but they can only play who is on the schedule and it isn't their fault the Sonics didn't make it to the next rd.

3. Shaq: Unreal and unstoppable when I think about 00's Shaq. Keep in mind I am a Magic fan as well and I gotta be honest here, I feel like the refs/ League allowed Shaq to bully and elbow his way into dominance during parts of this stint (mainly against Deke and Philly) but against Indy etc, he legitimately was an unstoppable force that put on a display of power and dominance that was/ is unprecedented as Shaq actually and thoroughly embraced and displayed his power and strength without regret. Only misstep was against a collapsing Blazers team who I still can't believe lost that series in Game 7....if only Jordan had called Pippen to wish him luck instead of Ron Harper (and Phil) before that final game who knows how things woulda worked out..

4. LeBron: Improved his play etc, unstoppable force when he gets a head of steam attacking the basket, also though when I look into his eyes during clutch time I still see a guy unsure of himself who is still gaining confidence in his ability. I trust him to make big shots when they are in the lead or a tie game when worse case is overtime, do not trust his jumper but trust his driving ability and playmaking when it is lose or go home. Misstep which coulda destroyed what he is building for his legacy was terrible play down the stretch of Game 6 Finals and should still be thanking Ray Allen who made the 3 or Spurs HC Greg Popovich for subbing out Duncan for saving it, depends on how you look at it.

Of the 4 only Shaq and LeBron were possible end of game weak links but Shaq made em when they counted (FT's) and LeBron can definitely make the game winning drive or pass to win it all while Jordan and Hakeem had absolutely no holes or "knocks" in their game in clutch moments.

Ranking strictly on peak numbers and impact:

1. Shaq: simply no way for his peers to counter this guy strength-wise and athletically as well
2. Jordan: toughest mentally and relentless will to win along w/ superior athleticism and IQ than his peers
3. LeBron: too gifted athletically with a higher understanding of the game than his peers
4. Hakeem: athletic and dependable on both ends of the court with a higher bball IQ than his peers

[Gregoire]

Hard to separate the individual achievement from the team achievement in these topics when it turns into the team as a whole winning the championship and the impact said player had in winning the title which is kinda the turn this comparison has taken and with that said the ranking should be:

1. Jordan: The guy practically won those rings by himself although they had a misstep vs the Blazers where the bench saved them in Game 6 I believe and the starters returned to bring home the win but other than that he was on a completely different tier than any player in the League.

2. Hakeem: C version of Michael Jordan during this span where I would actually be shocked when the guy missed a shot. Put Houston on his back and had an unbelievable run that was legendary which created his legacy and in my mind made him the best player during his 2x championship run. Never faced the Sonics during his PO run and good thing they dodged them cause Seattle had their number but they can only play who is on the schedule and it isn't their fault the Sonics didn't make it to the next rd.

3. Shaq: Unreal and unstoppable when I think about 00's Shaq. Keep in mind I am a Magic fan as well and I gotta be honest here, I feel like the refs/ League allowed Shaq to bully and elbow his way into dominance during parts of this stint (mainly against Deke and Philly) but against Indy etc, he legitimately was an unstoppable force that put on a display of power and dominance that was/ is unprecedented as Shaq actually and thoroughly embraced and displayed his power and strength without regret. Only misstep was against a collapsing Blazers team who I still can't believe lost that series in Game 7....if only Jordan had called Pippen to wish him luck instead of Ron Harper (and Phil) before that final game who knows how things woulda worked out..

4. LeBron: Improved his play etc, unstoppable force when he gets a head of steam attacking the basket, also though when I look into his eyes during clutch time I still see a guy unsure of himself who is still gaining confidence in his ability. I trust him to make big shots when they are in the lead or a tie game when worse case is overtime, do not trust his jumper but trust his driving ability and playmaking when it is lose or go home. Misstep which coulda destroyed what he is building for his legacy was terrible play down the stretch of Game 6 Finals and should still be thanking Ray Allen who made the 3 or Spurs HC Greg Popovich for subbing out Duncan for saving it, depends on how you look at it.

Of the 4 only Shaq and LeBron were possible end of game weak links but Shaq made em when they counted (FT's) and LeBron can definitely make the game winning drive or pass to win it all while Jordan and Hakeem had absolutely no holes or "knocks" in their game in clutch moments.

Ranking strictly on peak numbers and impact:

1. Shaq: simply no way for his peers to counter this guy strength-wise and athletically as well
2. Jordan: toughest mentally and relentless will to win along w/ superior athleticism and IQ than his peers
3. LeBron: too gifted athletically with a higher understanding of the game than his peers
4. Hakeem: athletic and dependable on both ends of the court with a higher bball IQ than his peers

Good list, but what the difference betwwen your first and second ranks? Which is the answer of OP about impact and ability for wiining the champ?

[wenzi]

GOAT = JORDAN

[Gregoire]

Plenty of guys could of have done what Hakeem did and win a title when the defending champions lose the best player in the league and the #1 seed in your conference who is your nememis is out of the playoffs early on. Now had Hakeem got thru the Sonics and Bulls that would be a different story. Hakeem had HCA in each series and was even down 3-2 in a series with it, something that didn't happen with some all time greats with HCA.

I'd like to know a list of NBA greats that could've led the 93-94 playoff Rockets in all major statistical categories like Hakeem did, given no one before or since has performed such a feat. Jordan certainly isn't one of them. You couldn't suffer 3 straight lousy games a la 'MJ BEFORE he retired in 93 vs. NY to start a series and expect to get out of the West in Hakeem's shoes. In fact ya boy was down 0-2 to start that series, so your "argument" is quite laughable.

Your hero wasn't ever much of a problem for Hakeem and the Rockets, not exactly sure the benefit was in "avoiding" him.

So, you see Hakeem at number 1 spot?