Is Kyrie a part of the solution or the problem?

Culture · Post #1 » by **Culture** » Tue Dec 3, 2013 5:33 pm

I've managed to catch most of the Cavs games this year and while most fans are focusing on the debacle that is Anthony Bennett, no one is talking about Kyrie. Everyone (including myself) loves the guy because he's a human highlight reel and may be the best isolation scorer in the game. But does that translate to winning basketball? It obviously hasn't yet.

The general consensus being that Kyrie is a minus defender is based in fact. His defensive rating has barely improved from his rookie year (110 vs 109), offensive efficiency is considerably down this year with TS% falling from 55.3 to 48.7 and eFG% to 44 from 50.3. His PER has also suffered a decline from 21.4 his first two years to 17.1 so far this season. While some of this inefficiency could be from an uptick in usage (31.4 from 30.2) and a shooting slump, these numbers seem to indicate something more to me.

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mcfly1204 · Post #2 » by **mcfly1204** » Tue Dec 3, 2013 9:00 pm

Simply put, it is up to him to decide.

Niko23 · Post #3 » by **Niko23** » Tue Dec 3, 2013 9:39 pm

BossHoggin · Post #4 » by **BossHoggin** » Tue Dec 3, 2013 11:39 pm

I'm sure you're the only person to pay attention to Kyrie this year.

Post #5 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 12:13 am

I could swear that most smart people on this board have criticized Kyrie this year. Heck, some even think that Waiters has been playing better than him.

Culture · Post #6 » by **Culture** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 12:50 am

Boss, I understand other people pay attention to uncle drew. But the general consensus is that he's a top 3 PG. In the celtics forum just today they were questioning if Rondo was the third best PG behind CP and Kyrie. My point is I don't think Kyrie is to a status where you can just anoint him and not consider his output (as compared to just shrugging off Durant's slow start to the season).

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BossHoggin · Post #7 » by **BossHoggin** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 1:43 am

Culture wrote:Boss, I understand other people pay attention to uncle drew. But the general consensus is that he's a top 3 PG. In the celtics forum just today they were questioning if Rondo was the third best PG behind CP and Kyrie. My point is I don't think Kyrie is to a status where you can just anoint him and not consider his output (as compared to just shrugging off Durant's slow start to the season).

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you said no one aka 0. You're right but you came off as the first guy to ever use stats.

Culture · Post #8 » by **Culture** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 3:12 am

you said no one aka 0. You're right but you came off as the first guy to ever use stats.[/quote]

I probably should have been more clear. Just meant as more of haven't been on basketball reference lately shocked the numbers back up what I was seeing. Was trying to let a large enough sample size accumulate so not to jump to conclusions.

ThirdEyeSharp · Post #9 » by **ThirdEyeSharp** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 3:16 am

I just think that Kyrie is adjusting like everyone else, he's always been someone who took good shots and made them, right now he's forcing it.

I don't think his shooting touch or great finishing ability has vanished, I just think he's struggling a bit. I'm not gonna take a 17 game sample size over his first two years.

With Bynum, Bennett, and all the other madness surrounding this team I think it's best to wait and see if these guys can mesh over the course of the season rather than blaming our best players for our early failures.

Post #10 » by **TheOUTLAW** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 3:19 am

Ball movement is the key for Kyrie and the rest of the team. We looked much better moving the ball in the last game than we had all season

ThirdEyeSharp · Post #11 » by **ThirdEyeSharp** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 3:29 am

I agree, but ball movement is a team skill. It does start with Kyrie, and I feel everyone including him has to do a better job. We need better spacing, more movement without the ball, and more P&R plays. We need an offense with flow.

Culture · Post #12 » by **Culture** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 4:13 am

^ Good thing we've got Mike Brown for 5 years.

Dupp · Post #13 » by **Dupp** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 6:34 am

mcfly1204 wrote:Simply put, it is up to him to decide.

Pretty much this. Right now he's part of teh problem but no doubt he can be the solution.

tidho · Post #14 » by **tidho** » Wed Dec 4, 2013 6:36 pm

Niko23 wrote:Both

yup.

gflem · Post #15 » by **gflem** » Fri Dec 6, 2013 11:30 pm

Culture wrote:^ Good thing we've got Mike Brown for 5 years.

Welcome to the board, its always nice to see new fans.
This team imo has had issues buying into what Brown wants from them. Now I am not trying to equate myself to an NBA coach, but I have coached kids for a dozen years, sometimes more that one team per year in rec leagues and wen you ask someone to do something new or unfamiliar it takes time for them to buy in. That is my experience with kids, not with skilled professional athletes, most of whom have been told that they are the **** from the time they have been in high school or before that even.
Most of whom at this point earn more that the guy who is telling them what to do. I am not a big Brown fan, nor do I think that I know more that he does, but he is in charge for at least this year and next, probably more than that, and until the kids on this team buy into what he is preaching the team will struggle. I don't know that Brown is a championship caliber coach, but he isn't the worst coach in the league either (hello Jason Kidd?).
It is starting to look like the team is going to play the way Brown wants, playing and trying to win with defense rather than just trying to outscore the other team every game.

calibanPK · Post #16 » by **calibanPK** » Sat Dec 7, 2013 5:11 pm

I always thought one of the best qualities about Kyrie was his shooting percentages? Hopefully that will come back.

Brapman · Post #17 » by **Brapman** » Sun Dec 8, 2013 12:25 am

Pistons fan:

IMO, after CP3, Kyrie is the best offensive scoring point guard in the game. I've always thought he wasn't a particularly great pure pg, although he's extremely talented, and I always thought he was a putrid defender. His defensive ability is most concerning, as I don't believe he has great lateral ability as a defender - which is the most important attribute for guards on D.

I rate him as THE guy I most would want running the Pistons on a long term basis. However, this season so far gives me great pause in saying that. Not because of his scoring - he's in a slump and he's super talented and everyone should just relax, he'll be himself as a scorer before too long; but because of what I now perceive to be a guy who might be severely lacking as a leader.

It's young, and maybe he'll mature and learn and leadership will be something that comes naturally to him, and his teammates will follow his lead and be empowered playing with him. But maybe this is a harbinger of bad tidings for the future in this area for him.

Something's really off with this kid, and his team is falling apart around him right now. This is a major test for his character. That's what I'd be concerned with. (The hell with his D - lots of championship PG's couldn't defend my granny. Of course, granny could play.)

JonFromVA · Post #18 » by **JonFromVA** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Brapman wrote:It's young, and maybe he'll mature and learn and leadership will be something that comes naturally to him, and his teammates will follow his lead and be empowered playing with him. But maybe this is a harbinger of bad tidings for the future in this area for him.

Pistons fan? Surely you remember Chauncey Billups. It took him a little while to figure out how to run a team. Fortunately for you guys he did most of his learning at other team's expense. What was it? 4 of them before he landed in Detroit?

The Celtics gave up on Billups when he was still a 21 year old rookie - same age as Irving. I don't know how these guys are supposed to learn how to run the point, act as leaders, manage a game, etc, etc, but there's got to be a better way than letting them stink for years until some light finally goes off.

Okada · Post #19 » by **Okada** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:32 am

This 'Kyrie isn't a leader' movement is really getting on my nerves. Partly because it has gone into people turning it into a serious character issue. Not the same thing. Even if he really can't be a leader, he still definitely seems like a great guy that teammates get along well with. There's no reason to think he's a player that is or is going to be a detriment to the locker room and the organization because of his character. And partly because the 'not a leader' backlash against a 21 year old seems way too excessive to me. Leadership is getting treated like an inherent trait that can't be changed, but that's not true when you're talking about someone who is 21 and being asked to lead an NBA team. That's something practically any player would have to learn and adjust to over time.

ThirdEyeSharp · Post #20 » by **ThirdEyeSharp** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:56 pm

^^I'm with you, I don't get how everyone is blaming all of this on Kyrie.

We've had a lot of turnover from last year to this year, and everyone is struggling with Kyrie. We're shooting 42% from the field as a team, we have no spacing, and we're relying way too much on Bynum to be effective when it just isn't happening.

We need to see more P&R in this offense, I have no idea why Bennett just shoots 3's instead of working the P&R. It kills me.