Are our guards ignoring drummond

[Invictus88]

Monroe Drummond is a future.

Smith Drummond is a temporary fix with no chance at a championship.

Monroe passes to Drummond just as good as Smith if not better, and Monroe never wastes 10 possessions in a game shooting 20 footers.

Another +1 from me vic. We might not agree on how to classify our team's chances of winning a championship but we definitely agree here.

[DetroitSho]

Monroe Drummond is a future.

Smith Drummond is a temporary fix with no chance at a championship.

Monroe passes to Drummond just as good as Smith if not better, and Monroe never wastes 10 possessions in a game shooting 20 footers.

This gets lost around here. Its funny people require Moose to get a 15 footer, but begs Josh to stop shooting jumpers. They want to trade Moose because he likes it in the post, to allow Dre the room to operate, when Moose already has the post game that Dre is trying to develop. Furthermore, if you don't want Moose down there with Dre, that means when you trade him, you're not gonna want Josh down there clogging up the paint for Dre either right? What does that leave Josh to do? Youuuuuu guessed it, spot up for long jumpers. But wait, you guys have told him to stop doing that though. So which is it?

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I have never been one to say Smith should stop shooting jumpshots. It doesn't have to be either/or with him and that's the advantage. He can play both inside-out, whereas Monroe can only do one. Smith isn't a great jumpshooter of course, and he is better in the post, but he's at least a capable jumpshooter, so its an added element to take advantage of from time to time that expands the playbook, which you don't have with Monroe. So it wouldn't be a matter of he either gets post touches or gets not shots at all, like is the case with Monroe. Plus Smith is much smaller/skinnier, takes up less space, and is more athletic, so even when you play him inside he's not a lumbering statue like Monroe making it hard for Dre to operate around.

Of course we already have a good post player in Monroe, but he doesn't have the same potential to ever really dominate like Drummond does, so I just would rather use these post touches on developing the guy who has the most potential.

I don't see Smith as a longrterm solution. More like this era's Cliff Robinson, who we use for a few years until we find someone better. Monroe doesn't appear to be that "better guy" thought, so I don't see why he would be considerd any more Drummond's longterm mate than Smith. Just because he's of like age? There's lots of young bigs available who come much cheaper if age is the main reason to keep him.

1. There's plenty of people who are all begging Smith to stop settling for jumpers and you read this forum enough to know I'm telling the truth.
2. I seriously can't believe you called Smith a capable shooter.
3. Your point about Josh not taking up as much space as Monroe down low due to being skinnier is about the most pitiful argument I've ever heard. I'm not sure the relevance of that. I don't care if its a 5 year old down there, it only matters the proximity of the man guarding Josh/Moose, not their difference in size.

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[Invictus88]

Monroe Drummond is a future.

Smith Drummond is a temporary fix with no chance at a championship.

Monroe passes to Drummond just as good as Smith if not better, and Monroe never wastes 10 possessions in a game shooting 20 footers.

This gets lost around here. Its funny people require Moose to get a 15 footer, but begs Josh to stop shooting jumpers. They want to trade Moose because he likes it in the post, to allow Dre the room to operate, when Moose already has the post game that Dre is trying to develop. Furthermore, if you don't want Moose down there with Dre, that means when you trade him, you're not gonna want Josh down there clogging up the paint for Dre either right? What does that leave Josh to do? Youuuuuu guessed it, spot up for long jumpers. But wait, you guys have told him to stop doing that though. So which is it?

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I have never been one to say Smith should stop shooting jumpshots. It doesn't have to be either/or with him and that's the advantage. He can play both inside-out, whereas Monroe can only do one. Smith isn't a great jumpshooter of course, and he is better in the post, but he's at least a capable jumpshooter, so its an added element to take advantage of from time to time that expands the playbook, which you don't have with Monroe. So it wouldn't be a matter of he either gets post touches or gets not shots at all, like is the case with Monroe. Plus Smith is much smaller/skinnier, takes up less space, and is more athletic, so even when you play him inside he's not a lumbering statue like Monroe making it hard for Dre to operate around.

Of course we already have a good post player in Monroe, but he doesn't have the same potential to ever really dominate like Drummond does, so I just would rather use these post touches on developing the guy who has the most potential.

I don't see Smith as a longrterm solution. More like this era's Cliff Robinson, who we use for a few years until we find someone better. Monroe doesn't appear to be that "better guy" thought, so I don't see why he would be considerd any more Drummond's longterm mate than Smith. Just because he's of like age? There's lots of young bigs available who come much cheaper if age is the main reason to keep him.

Smith isn't a capable jumpshooter though because he really isn't consistent. And he has a lot more bad nights then good ones.

Monroe has actually improved his outside game according to the numbers (at around 50% from 8-16 ft). I know how much you love numbers Q00 .

It's definitely true that Smith is more athletic then Monroe but I really don't see that as being a big detriment to the PF position. While it's true there are athletic PF's on teams it's also true that teams can get by without one (see Tim Duncan). PF offense cancels some of this out to a certain extent.

The way I see it:
1. We are proficient offensively at PF with Monroe
2. We are adequate defensively at PF with Monroe
3. We are deficient offensively at SF with Smith
4. We are deficient defensively at SF with Smith

Smith would be adequate defensively (athletic but slim) at PF and adequate/proficient offensively. So in a large part it would be a wash if we look at things NOW.

In the future, Smith's upside is curbed. He's not going to get much better than he is now and age will become a factor in degrading performance.

Monroe has improved in some areas year over year. Post game improved last year and jumpers are improving this year (over a VERY limited sample size ).

But there's also something to be said for having Drummond and Monroe both reaching their primes at the same time. Drummond is going to be blossoming fullest as Smith slips towards retirement.

I also think it much more likely that Monroe continues to develop a proficient 8-14 foot game needed by PFs and Drummond further develops a post game (I love those hook shots!) then it is for Smith to suddenly start hitting 8-14 footers with consistency.

[Q00]

1. There's plenty of people who are all begging Smith to stop settling for jumpers and you read this forum enough to know I'm telling the truth.
2. I seriously can't believe you called Smith a capable shooter.
3. Your point about Josh not taking up as much space as Monroe down low due to being skinnier is about the most pitiful argument I've ever heard. I'm not sure the relevance of that. I don't care if its a 5 year old down there, it only matters the proximity of the man guarding Josh/Moose, not their difference in size.

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1. What does that have to do with me giving my own opinion on the topic?

2. He's more capable than Monroe. That's all I said. And if you are going to try to tell me Monroe is a better shooter, good luck...

3. You need to learn some simple physics. Space is space, regardless of which team's player is occupying it. The amount of space a big man has to operate is not just limited to the opposing players defending him, but also his own teammates camping out in the same vicinity. I wasn't even making an argument about it. I was just stating the obvious. If you put 4 bigs in the paint, (our 2 bigs vs theirs) the bigger the players, the less space there is to operate for the ball handler. Monroe is bigger than Smith, thus he takes up more space. Its not complicated.

[Invictus88]

1. There's plenty of people who are all begging Smith to stop settling for jumpers and you read this forum enough to know I'm telling the truth.
2. I seriously can't believe you called Smith a capable shooter.
3. Your point about Josh not taking up as much space as Monroe down low due to being skinnier is about the most pitiful argument I've ever heard. I'm not sure the relevance of that. I don't care if its a 5 year old down there, it only matters the proximity of the man guarding Josh/Moose, not their difference in size.

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1. What does that have to do with me giving my own opinion on the topic?

2. He's more capable than Monroe. That's all I said. And if you are going to try to tell me Monroe is a better shooter, good luck...

3. You need to learn some simple physics. Space is space, regardless of which team's player is occupying it. The amount of space a big man has to operate is not just limited to the opposing players defending him, but also his own teammates camping out in the same vicinity. I wasn't even making an argument about it. I was just stating the obvious. If you put 4 bigs in the paint, (our 2 bigs vs theirs) the bigger the players, the less space there is to operate for the ball handler. Monroe is bigger than Smith, thus he takes up more space. Its not complicated.

One person is talking about clogging the paint and lack of space therein. The other is talking about spacing in between players and help defenders across the entire halfcourt. One is the result of the other but they are not technically the same.

That being said I do find it at least a little ironic that the paint being packed is now being considered a problem and reason to move Monroe. This was predicted when Josh Smith was signed but was refuted multiple times that it wouldn't be a problem. Interesting how things change.

[Q00]

1. There's plenty of people who are all begging Smith to stop settling for jumpers and you read this forum enough to know I'm telling the truth.
2. I seriously can't believe you called Smith a capable shooter.
3. Your point about Josh not taking up as much space as Monroe down low due to being skinnier is about the most pitiful argument I've ever heard. I'm not sure the relevance of that. I don't care if its a 5 year old down there, it only matters the proximity of the man guarding Josh/Moose, not their difference in size.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using RealGM Forums mobile app

1. What does that have to do with me giving my own opinion on the topic?

2. He's more capable than Monroe. That's all I said. And if you are going to try to tell me Monroe is a better shooter, good luck...

3. You need to learn some simple physics. Space is space, regardless of which team's player is occupying it. The amount of space a big man has to operate is not just limited to the opposing players defending him, but also his own teammates camping out in the same vicinity. I wasn't even making an argument about it. I was just stating the obvious. If you put 4 bigs in the paint, (our 2 bigs vs theirs) the bigger the players, the less space there is to operate for the ball handler. Monroe is bigger than Smith, thus he takes up more space. Its not complicated.

One person is talking about clogging the paint and lack of space therein. The other is talking about spacing in between players and help defenders across the entire halfcourt. One is the result of the other but they are not technically the same.

That being said I do find it at least a little ironic that the paint being packed is now being considered a problem and reason to move Monroe. This was predicted when Josh Smith was signed but was refuted multiple times that it wouldn't be a problem. Interesting how things change.

Nothing has changed on that front. You're talking about three different things here, and you both are obsessing about the least important aspect, while ignoring the main point. For one, I'm talking about developing Drummond's individual post game, not the team offense, which clearly has no problem scoring in a crowded paint as a team. Second, in order to develop his post game he's going to need consistent touches in the post every game. Hard to do that when Monroe is taking all of the post touches. THAT is the main point I was making, not spacing.

But just to clear up my point about the spacing...Monroe's size and lack of athletcism will make it harder for Drummond to operate in the post. Its different when its vice versa because when Monroe is in the post, Drummond is a mobile big. He has the athleticism to stay out of his way and doesn't need to just camp his big body in the paint crowding it like Monroe does. Which is why I predicted they wouldn't have problems operating in the paint as a team going into the season, because those were the expected roles, and why they haven't had problems in the paint playing this way.

That was all based on Monroe being the primary post man and Drummond just roaming off the ball though. If Dre is to ever develop a post game, they eventually have to switch that up. So we're talking about the opposite now, and obviously the analysis changes. But the most important point here is not about space issues, its that Monroe needs lots of post touches, as that is literally his only way of scoring. In order to develop Drummonds post game, he basically has to take a lot of Monroe's shots away. Considering Monroe brings little else to the team BUT scoring in the post, if you have to start limiting that then what do you even need him for anymore? That is the point here, and that is just one of the many reasons why I think its best to trade him.

Great win tonight though and Monroe played really good, but its more about fit for me, and I don't know if its a coincidence or not, but we played awesome tonight and they barely played together. When both did play together for the final quarter, it ended up our worst quarter of the game. So, take it for whats it worth, but if they don't fit and I have to choose one, I'm going with Dre.

[Clarity]

Monroe Drummond is a future.

Smith Drummond is a temporary fix with no chance at a championship.

Monroe passes to Drummond just as good as Smith if not better, and Monroe never wastes 10 possessions in a game shooting 20 footers.

great post

[Invictus88]

1. What does that have to do with me giving my own opinion on the topic?

2. He's more capable than Monroe. That's all I said. And if you are going to try to tell me Monroe is a better shooter, good luck...

3. You need to learn some simple physics. Space is space, regardless of which team's player is occupying it. The amount of space a big man has to operate is not just limited to the opposing players defending him, but also his own teammates camping out in the same vicinity. I wasn't even making an argument about it. I was just stating the obvious. If you put 4 bigs in the paint, (our 2 bigs vs theirs) the bigger the players, the less space there is to operate for the ball handler. Monroe is bigger than Smith, thus he takes up more space. Its not complicated.

One person is talking about clogging the paint and lack of space therein. The other is talking about spacing in between players and help defenders across the entire halfcourt. One is the result of the other but they are not technically the same.

That being said I do find it at least a little ironic that the paint being packed is now being considered a problem and reason to move Monroe. This was predicted when Josh Smith was signed but was refuted multiple times that it wouldn't be a problem. Interesting how things change.

Nothing has changed on that front. You're talking about three different things here, and you both are obsessing about the least important aspect, while ignoring the main point. For one, I'm talking about developing Drummond's individual post game, not the team offense, which clearly has no problem scoring in a crowded paint as a team. Second, in order to develop his post game he's going to need consistent touches in the post every game. Hard to do that when Monroe is taking all of the post touches. THAT is the main point I was making, not spacing.

But just to clear up my point about the spacing...Monroe's size and lack of athletcism will make it harder for Drummond to operate in the post. Its different when its vice versa because when Monroe is in the post, Drummond is a mobile big. He has the athleticism to stay out of his way and doesn't need to just camp his big body in the paint crowding it like Monroe does. Which is why I predicted they wouldn't have problems operating in the paint as a team going into the season, because those were the expected roles, and why they haven't had problems in the paint playing this way.

That was all based on Monroe being the primary post man and Drummond just roaming off the ball though. If Dre is to ever develop a post game, they eventually have to switch that up. So we're talking about the opposite now, and obviously the analysis changes. But the most important point here is not about space issues, its that Monroe needs lots of post touches, as that is literally his only way of scoring. In order to develop Drummonds post game, he basically has to take a lot of Monroe's shots away. Considering Monroe brings little else to the team BUT scoring in the post, if you have to start limiting that then what do you even need him for anymore? That is the point here, and that is just one of the many reasons why I think its best to trade him.

Great win tonight though and Monroe played really good, but its more about fit for me, and I don't know if its a coincidence or not, but we played awesome tonight and they barely played together. When both did play together for the final quarter, it ended up our worst quarter of the game. So, take it for whats it worth, but if they don't fit and I have to choose one, I'm going with Dre.

Monroe has shown in very limited quantities that he can hit from 8-14 feet. So if Cheeks really wanted to develop Drummond's post game and shift Monroe's touches out he could. But that would also mean that Josh Smith's touches would then be taken.

If I have to choose between Smith and Monroe shooting from 8-14 feet I choose Monroe. You might laugh at that initially but we've seen what Smith can do from the outside and it's not pretty most nights.

At least we'd be able to see if Monroe can maintain his high percentage with increased volume and give him a chance at developing at PF.

I agree that the problem is fit. And that problem is caused by Smith.

[RSCD3_]

24/19

Another big game by drummond and 57% ft's

I didnt see much of the game because of work how did he score his buckets?

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[Clarity]

What a difference in Drummonds impact & the teams success when guys are constantly looking for him.

Night & day.