Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing

[DANNYLANDOVER]

^ And maybe that will work for Toronto, but no team is in exactly the same situation. New Portland GM Neil Olshey, for example, took a different approach:

And quickly, he learned this: The people of Portland didn't want a winner, they needed one.

"It caught me off guard," Olshey said. "Listen, I had been in this building as a front-office executive, a coach, and I knew how much it meant inside this building with the fans. But how much the identity of this city is wrapped up in the Blazers. It's so important that this team performs well – and does it with the right kind of guys. It's not just winning, but how we win, how we lose, how guys play, how guys treat the fans.

"And you know, that's what accelerated it for me. It would be great to come in with a three-to-five-year plan, slowly rebuild, but about five minutes after I got here, I realized: We're going to have to pick the pace up on this."

All around Olshey, he's working to temper expectations. Slow down, he's telling everyone. Slow down. All they wanted was to make the playoffs here, just grow and progress and start to construct some sustainable success. And then there's another one of these nights – back-to-back beatings of Indiana and Oklahoma City – and Olshey had to laugh and shrug and wonder the way everyone else does: Just how good can these Blazers be?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/rip-city-r ... 12423.html

They realized they needed to start winning some games right away so they made moves they thought would help them do that. They just wanted to make the playoffs, but things are taking off for them. Let's see if the same can happen here.

It can't be "championship contender or tank" as the only two choices every year, otherwise there would be 29 teams tanking for the #1 overall pick as long as LeBron is in the league. There's nothing wrong with trying to win games.

Portland isn't really comparable to this team. They have arguably the best power forward in the league, in his prime, and a couple other good pieces. Over the summer, there were rumors that he could demand a trade, if they didn't start winning. Portland has no option to tank, and with their team, they could never be a high lotto team.

What some of you EG supporters don't understand is that the construction of this team is not sustainable. If we are going all in for the playoffs, it should be through the natural growth of our young players, who are going to peak together. The Nene and Okafor trades were a waste of time and effort. Wall is not going to be in his prime for until a couple years from now. Looking at this roster (not counting UFAs), the only other guys who will be in their primes or close to it are Beal, Porter, and Webster. Do you think that team has championship potential. I would rather we had traded for/signed young bigs that will grow with the team. The only viable option is to build through the draft (and I don't mean intentionally tanking). Just like Orlando, Philly and New Orleans, let your young guys play hard together. If they make the playoffs or come close to it, then that's growth, and trust me free agents will want to sign for a young team on the come up. The Wizards are neither that young nor on a sustainable come up.

[LyricalRico]

The Nene and Okafor trades were a waste of time and effort. ... Do you think that team has championship potential.

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

As I mentioned before, if that were the prevailing logic around the league, every team not named Miami/Indy/OKC/SA would be scrambling to shed assets to compete in the lottery (although there would be no takers because nobody would want to "waste their time" winning games). But they aren't doing that. A number of teams are trying to win as many games as they can, even though they don't have a chance at the title. Why that is looked down upon, I don't understand.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

And if the team gets a new GM, I still won't agree with that kind of thinking. I don't have a personal attachment to Ernie as much as I have agreed with him making moves to try to win games. Like the Jamison trade - would you really trade those Big Three years to have 4 losing years with a young Devin Harris or Luol Deng (who haven't won any titles either, by the way)? I'd rather have Jamison and the wins.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

[leswizards]

If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach....

A number of teams are trying to win as many games as they can, even though they don't have a chance at the title. Why that is looked down upon, I don't understand.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" .... I'll never agree with that kind of thinking....

I don't have a personal attachment to Ernie as much as I have agreed with him making moves to try to win games....

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

By your metric, EG is a failure, as the Wizards are 49-77 since the Nene trade, and 38-63 since the Okafor/Ariza trade. The "tanking" crowds view is if the Wizards are going to be bad, why not be productively bad. Under EG, the Wizards are not productively bad, they are just bad.

[LyricalRico]

The "tanking" crowds view is if the Wizards are going to be bad, why not be productively bad. Under EG, the Wizards are not productively bad, they are just bad.

That's not an unreasonable position, and I could be there with you by the end of this season. Maybe I'm misreading some of the posters, but I won't buy the "championship or bust" argument. Either way, hopefully things will work out this year in a way that keeps everyone happy. Let's see how it plays out.

[DANNYLANDOVER]

The Nene and Okafor trades were a waste of time and effort. ... Do you think that team has championship potential.

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

As I mentioned before, if that were the prevailing logic around the league, every team not named Miami/Indy/OKC/SA would be scrambling to shed assets to compete in the lottery (although there would be no takers because nobody would want to "waste their time" winning games). But they aren't doing that. A number of teams are trying to win as many games as they can, even though they don't have a chance at the title. Why that is looked down upon, I don't understand.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

And if the team gets a new GM, I still won't agree with that kind of thinking. I don't have a personal attachment to Ernie as much as I have agreed with him making moves to try to win games. Like the Jamison trade - would you really trade those Big Three years to have 4 losing years with a young Devin Harris or Luol Deng (who haven't won any titles either, by the way)? I'd rather have Jamison and the wins.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

If you read my entire post, you will find out that I don't encourage intentional tanking. I encourage getting young players that can improve and enter their primes together. This team is CAPPED out with multiple veterans and a couple of them are UFAs. There is no sustainability, and that is my main issue. If we had younger players and are pushing for the playoffs, trust me, no one with a basketball mind will be rooting for tanking.
What happened to the OKC model that Ted preached about?

[montestewart]

The "tanking" crowds view is if the Wizards are going to be bad, why not be productively bad. Under EG, the Wizards are not productively bad, they are just bad.

That's not an unreasonable position, and I could be there with you by the end of this season. Maybe I'm misreading some of the posters, but I won't buy the "championship or bust" argument. Either way, hopefully things will work out this year in a way that keeps everyone happy. Let's see how it plays out.

I think there are a few of us (maybe quite a few) that feel like there is lip service paid by Terd and Ernie to the pursuit of a championship, which in theory should be at last part of every team's goal, no matter how realistic or unrealistic. Competing interests and mitigating factors include team finances, complacency of fans, loyalty toward particular players/coaches/managers, and incompetence of coaches/managers/owners (these off the top of my head).

Of course, every trade doesn't have to lead directly to a championship. There is a sense among some of us around here that the moves made have painted the Wizards into a corner, with the team's ceiling (very dependent on good health) likely low or (maybe for this year only) middle seeding, before salary commitments and aging players force a redirection.

It's not clear to me whether the Wizards front office truly believes they are on a legitimate path to the title, or even to serious contention, but I think that so far their moves have more likely ensured a slightly better than average team, with a decent core, no true crunch time take-over-the-game player, and no bench at all.

Still, I can agree with your general point. The Sixers acquired Dr. J, and didn't win a championship for another 5-6 years? It was still a good move. Same with Phoenix getting Barkley and Nash, Knicks getting Oakley, Kings getting Webber (boy was that a good move, how'd they pull that off?), Clippers getting Brand, etc. I just want to know that my team feels the urgency of continually moving forward with the championship as the ultimate goal, no matter how pie-in-the-sky. If they make good effort, make it into contention territory, but fall short, it will still be a much more satisfying experience for this fan.

Of course, if I'm wrong about this and the team is suddenly routinely top-4 in the EC, oh well, I'm still struggling with the Earth being round. Go Wiz!

[DCZards]

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

Preach on, lyrical. Supporting the Okafor/Ariza trade is not the original sin that some posters have portrayed it to be. In fact, Ariza and Okafor played very well last season and (with a healthy Wall and Nene) helped this team win games.

Being competitive in every game, playing good defense, acting like pros on and off the court, etc. was exactly the kind of culture change the Zards needed in order to make the first step of going from a bottom dweller to a team that competes for the playoffs...and eventually to a contender.

Folks here have every right to be concerned about some of the terrible moves that EG has made and what the future holds given this team's terrible lack of depth. But I blame that problem more on EG's piss poor drafting rather than the trades for Nene and Ariza/Okafor.

[hands11]

But Lyrical

Anything other then a title leaves the biggest window to be critical though.

As for the moves they made to give Wall a team he could develop his game with, I see it as that. He wasn't going to develop without players around him that could help him evolve. Given EG was GM, best way to do that was trades and he did that.

And FAs weren't going to line up for a losing Wizards team coming off Gilbertology, shoe poop and guns in the looker room. They had to change their image to that of a professional franchise.

Now that they have something better around Wall, we are seeing him improve. He learned the pick and roll because of Gortat. He is passing to Beal, Webster and Trevor A. You needed those kind of players for him to develop part of his game. Change of pace he could have learned on his own.

Next move is to bring in a more complete GM who can not only trade, but draft well. From where the team is now, trade can get them to the playoffs by cleaning up the bench, but its going to take a complete GM in order to keep this rolling and rebuilding with quality draft picks past the top 3. Land a couple of quality players like that and the young depth will look better in only about two years.

Mostly I think people say the team is stuck because they have no faith in EG finding those players. And you can't blame them for that. Its is clearly harder build a contender using only trades. They would have to be bold and move Wall for some awesome prime younger assets and have a lot of luck. Just easier to do if you can sprinkle in some value production draft picks.

[hands11]

The Nene and Okafor trades were a waste of time and effort. ... Do you think that team has championship potential.

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

As I mentioned before, if that were the prevailing logic around the league, every team not named Miami/Indy/OKC/SA would be scrambling to shed assets to compete in the lottery (although there would be no takers because nobody would want to "waste their time" winning games). But they aren't doing that. A number of teams are trying to win as many games as they can, even though they don't have a chance at the title. Why that is looked down upon, I don't understand.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

And if the team gets a new GM, I still won't agree with that kind of thinking. I don't have a personal attachment to Ernie as much as I have agreed with him making moves to try to win games. Like the Jamison trade - would you really trade those Big Three years to have 4 losing years with a young Devin Harris or Luol Deng (who haven't won any titles either, by the way)? I'd rather have Jamison and the wins.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

If you read my entire post, you will find out that I don't encourage intentional tanking. I encourage getting young players that can improve and enter their primes together. This team is CAPPED out with multiple veterans and a couple of them are UFAs. There is no sustainability, and that is my main issue. If we had younger players and are pushing for the playoffs, trust me, no one with a basketball mind will be rooting for tanking.
What happened to the OKC model that Ted preached about?

So your position is there is no way to move forward with this franchise ?

Keep in mind, that doesn't mean it has to happen in a straight line. They can move assets. They can make trades and they will have draft picks in the future. They can take a small step back to reload if needed.

Dec 15th will be here soon. I think that is when more players can get moved. Trade talks are just starting to warm up again. 20 games into the season.

I see things as pretty wide open in regards to what might happen. Wittman and EG are the last years of their contracts. Two decently big expiring contracts for players that could stay or go. Youth on the bench that is ready to get turned over if needed in Singleton, Booker, Ves, and Kevin S. Who stays, who goes. Otto or no Otto. Its all on the table. Specially if they get a new GM.

[montestewart]

Anything other then a title leaves the biggest window to be critical though.

Quit stealing lines from Captain Beefheart

[hands11]

Anything other then a title leaves the biggest window to be critical though.

Quit stealing lines from Captain Beefheart

I don't know who that is therefor I have no idea what you are talking about.

[tontoz]

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

Preach on, lyrical. Supporting the Okafor/Ariza trade is not the original sin that some posters have portrayed it to be. In fact, Ariza and Okafor played very well last season and (with a healthy Wall and Nene) helped this team win 29 games.

FYP

[montestewart]

Anything other then a title leaves the biggest window to be critical though.

Quit stealing lines from Captain Beefheart

I don't know who that is therefor I have no idea what you are talking about.

He was a musician, painter and poet. That line reminded me of some of his lyrics. Just playing around Hands, I like your posts.

[hands11]

Quit stealing lines from Captain Beefheart

I don't know who that is therefor I have no idea what you are talking about.

He was a musician, painter and poet. That line reminded me of some of his lyrics. Just playing around Hands, I like your posts.

Well there ya go. I learned something new. I will look him up.

[TGW]

Hands welcome to the darkside MUAHAHAHAHAH

[DCZards]

Tontoz, feel free to comment on my posts, but please don't rewrite them to suit your purposes.

[tontoz]

Tontoz, feel free to comment on my posts, but please don't rewrite them to suit your purposes.

You said that Okariza trade helped the team win games. Feel free to correct me but they won 29 did they not?

Sorry if the facts bother you. When you make expensive moves to win in the short term and don't win that isn't a selling point for the trade.

[DCZards]

You said that Okariza trade helped the team win games. And both Ariza and Okafor did play well last season. But they won 29 did they not?

Fixed.

[tontoz]

You said that Okariza trade helped the team win games. And both Ariza and Okafor did play well last season. But they won 29 did they not?

Fixed.

They played well and the Wizards still won only 29 games. That should tell you that it wasn't the right time to make an expensive, win now trade.

[DCZards]

They played well and the Wizards still won only 29 games. That should tell you that it wasn't the right time to make an expensive, win now trade.

You totally missed the main point of my earlier post...so here it is again. Notice the word "first step":

Being competitive in every game, playing good defense, acting like pros on and off the court, etc. was exactly the kind of culture change the Zards needed in order to make the first step of going from a bottom dweller to a team that competes for the playoffs...and eventually to a contender.