MVP discussion thread

[theokie]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

[Antrim]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

To me, it's very simple. If Durant/George have a better record than Miami, they'll have a shot even if LeBron has better stats. I just don't think that's going to happen.

[theokie]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

To me, it's very simple. If Durant/George have a better record than Miami, they'll have a shot even if LeBron has better stats. I just don't think that's going to happen.

Exactly. LeBron is going to have the best numbers because he's the best player. I'd say OKC will need to have a better record by about 2-3 games for Durant to have a chance, and Indiana to have a better record by 4-6 games for George to have a chance

[mademan]

Exactly. LeBron is going to have the best numbers because he's the best player. I'd say OKC will need to have a better record by about 2-3 games for Durant to have a chance, and Indiana to have a better record by 4-6 games for George to have a chance

If Indy gets the first seed and OKC has a worse record than both Miami and Indy, I can still see Durant getting MVP, just because Miami didn't get the first seed.

[Antrim]

Exactly. LeBron is going to have the best numbers because he's the best player. I'd say OKC will need to have a better record by about 2-3 games for Durant to have a chance, and Indiana to have a better record by 4-6 games for George to have a chance

If Indy gets the first seed and OKC has a worse record than both Miami and Indy, I can still see Durant getting MVP, just because Miami didn't get the first seed.

Agreed.

Exactly. LeBron is going to have the best numbers because he's the best player. I'd say OKC will need to have a better record by about 2-3 games for Durant to have a chance, and Indiana to have a better record by 4-6 games for George to have a chance

I'm going to half disagree with you there. LeBron is the best player, but he's coasting tremendously and Durant's numbers look fantastic. I especially love the fact that in the past few games he hasn't been getting as many gifted FT's as usual and he's still played great.

Efficiency is very important and LeBron will surely top everyone else in that aspect, but if Durant rebounds more, dishes out almost as many assists and scores considerably more (all of which I can believe, considering LeBron's coasting), voters won't care that much about it.

[xBulletproof]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

[xStanton27]

People need to understand that this award isn't a "which superstar has the worst team around him" award

[theokie]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

More recently and more commonly what I said is how it plays out. That year is the exception I guess, not the rule. Besides, Nash probably had a lot of media hype that year, and the story played a large part of the award. I said that was a factor as well.

Im not over simplifying it, I'm just saying what normally happens.

[xBulletproof]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

More recently and more commonly what I said is how it plays out.

Well of course that's what's happened more recently. Lebron has been the best player, with the best stats on the best teams with the best records for the most part. That's why he's won MVP 4 of the last 5 years. Pretty simple when it involves the best player in the world and all of those things point in one single direction. With lesser players, things become more cloudy and less simple. Like with the case between Durant and George.

[fallacy]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

George also probably has better defenders at every position around him (outside of PF) compared to Durant and an infinitely better coach to make everything easier on him.

It comes down to the fact that Durant is clearly the better player, therefore has a much better chance to win MVP

[theokie]

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

More recently and more commonly what I said is how it plays out.

Well of course that's what's happened more recently. Lebron has been the best player, with the best stats on the best teams with the best records for the most part. That's why he's won MVP 4 of the last 5 years. Pretty simple when it involves the best player in the world and all of those things point in one single direction. With lesser players, things become more cloudy and less simple. Like with the case between Durant and George.

The same applied for Kobe, Dirk, and Rose too.... and for Nash, Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, etc. etc. before that.
Stats, team performance, and hype. That equals the MVP. I don't know why you think thats so wrong?

[xBulletproof]

I don't get the case for George over Durant right now.

OKC does have 1 more loss than Indiana, but we also have to remember that OKC has played the 4th toughest schedule thus far, and Indiana has played the 4th easiest. But its so close now its basically a wash. Statistically, Durant wins easily. Better PER, better TS%, more WS, more PPG, more APG, more RPG...


It would be like giving MVP to Durant over LeBron despite Miami having the same record. It just won't happen, because the eye test shows that LeBron is better and the numbers back it up. The same logic applies for Durant over George.


I've always thought the MVP is based on 3 criteria. Record (basically a tie right now), Stats (LeBron > Durant > George) and hype/story (either LeBron or Durant). So its 1) LeBron, 2) Durant, and 3) George.

You're over simplifying. As an example, in 06, Nash won the MVP with 54 wins and 18p-10a. The Mavs won 60 and Dirk averaged 27-9-3. The Spurs won 63 and Tim averaged 19-11-3 and 2 blocks per. As we know, Nash certainly didn't win it on the defensive end.

Anyway, yes Durant wins 'statistically' but you're completely ignoring defense. Paul George is doing the job that Durant has in OKC as the focal point of the offense, but he is also doing Sefolosha's job on defense. Every game Paul is defending the other teams best player sometimes from point guard to power forward, Durant isn't. That's a big difference in who's more valuable to their team, and that's the name of the award, most valuable.

George also probably has better defenders at every position around him (outside of PF) compared to Durant and an infinitely better coach to make everything easier on him.

It comes down to the fact that Durant is clearly the better player, therefore has a much better chance to win MVP

Huh? Lance is a better defender than Sefolosha? George Hill is a better defender than Westbrook? I would say the only position the Pacers have a better defender besides George, is at C.

[kingkirk]

Why would anyone mention Parker?

His numbers are all star type numbers, not MVP, even with a great team record.

Isn't leading one's team to wins how some posters here make their rankings anyway? (Because if it's about the numbers, then there's one clear-cut frontrunner for this award...)

If that's the case, then Parker leading his team to the 2nd best record in the West should get a mention.

That would be the case is team record was the sole criteria to an MVP award but its not.

Parker is no where near the leaders, and rightfully so.

[MisterWestside]

That would be the case is team record was the sole criteria to an MVP award but its not.

Parker is no where near the leaders, and rightfully so.

I agree with that, but I've heard some people use this thinking with previous award winners. Players who lead their teams to the best record do receive votes.

[fallacy]

George also probably has better defenders at every position around him (outside of PF) compared to Durant and an infinitely better coach to make everything easier on him.

It comes down to the fact that Durant is clearly the better player, therefore has a much better chance to win MVP

Huh? Lance is a better defender than Sefolosha? George Hill is a better defender than Westbrook? I would say the only position the Pacers have a better defender besides George, is at C.

yeah, sefolosha has been god awful this year defensively. Durant has been our best perimeter defender.

Sefolosha is giving up 1.01 points per possession
Stephenson is giving up .86 points per possession

Stephenson has been a much better defender than Sefolosha this year. I'm glad Sefolosha is expiring because he's regressed massively so far.

George Hill is giving up a respectable .95 points per possession
Westbrook has apparently stepped up his defense this year though, .80 points per possession

Apparently Westbrook has been defending much better than the eye test shows or maybe I only remember the times he gets beat. But overall George has a much better defensive team than Durant does.


And I guess I have to compare Durant and George here, it is the MVP thread after all. Well here it goes

Durant - .87 ppp overall, .51 ppp in isolations, .77 ppp in post ups, .92 ppp in spot ups
George- .81 ppp overall, .65 ppp in isolations, .93 ppp in post ups, .93 ppp in spot ups

The myth that Durant is a bad defender needed to end last year. He's probably our best perimeter defender. The only problem he has on defense is he fouls too much

[kingkirk]

That would be the case is team record was the sole criteria to an MVP award but its not.

Parker is no where near the leaders, and rightfully so.

I agree with that, but I've heard some people use this thinking with previous award winners. Players who lead their teams to the best record do receive votes.

I get this, but did anyone really use this as the only caveat for MVP as you’re alluding to right now?

Maybe one or two unrealistic posters, but that’s it.

Parker will not be MVP even if the Spurs win 66 games.

17 & 6 are not MVP numbers despite wins.

[pacers33granger]

yeah, sefolosha has been god awful this year defensively. Durant has been our best perimeter defender.

Sefolosha is giving up 1.01 points per possession
Stephenson is giving up .86 points per possession

Stephenson has been a much better defender than Sefolosha this year. I'm glad Sefolosha is expiring because he's regressed massively so far.

Sefalosha played George really well the other night when he was on him. Looked worse on offense than I remember though.

[mademan]

Durant an awesome man to man defender. He just gets lost on D ball watching sometimes.

[NaturalThunder]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

[xMADEinDADEx]

Given the following:

1.) Durant is a much better defender now than a lot of people either want to admit or realize

and

2.) Are we sure George truly impacts a game defensively on a much higher level than Durant given how hard it is for a perimeter defender to truly impact a game defensively? I'm not saying George isn't a better defender and doesn't have a high impact on that end of that floor for a wing, but how much higher of an impact does he really have than Durant?


Why do some people think the gap between George and Durant as defenders is about as big as the gap between Durant and George as offensive players?

Because they think that PG is the sole reason as to why the Pacers have one of the best defenses in the league.

So they put him on Scottie Pippen's level. Or try to.


Sent from my iPhone 5 using RealGM Forums mobile app