Game 21: Champs @ The Palace 6PM EST

[hoophabit]

Anyone bothered by this loss is being too critical. They beat them a week ago because the Heat couldn't hit easy shots. Last night, they beat Detroit because they were nailing those shots at a really high rate. Plus, beating the Heat so recently I assumed Miami would come out strong and really look to beat us. Bring on Minnesota!

I and1ed the above, and also want to add that Cheeks' rotations were more acts of desperation than experiments. He had three healthy guards against the champs, and two of them are rookies. Anyone who is shocked by this loss needs to adjust their expectations. Cheer up, at least we're not watching the pathetic crap from the past several years.

[Clarity]

Just calling it like I see it. Some sort of move involving either Monroe or Smith (Smith preferably) needs to be made in the near future. We've improved since the beginning of the season but we won't take the next step without getting rid of the dead weight. I'm fine keeping Moose but if he can bring us something of equal value that fits better than we should do it. Monroe and Smith and looking worse with each game. Sorry if you disagree. I'm just looking for ways to improve this team and standing pat is not one of them.

at some point you're going to have to accept Josh is here & not going anywhere. There wasnt a bigger opponent to signing Josh because it made zero sense than me but I recognize reality. Hes here now, im making the most of what we have.

[whitehops]

depressing stat: in KCP's 18 and a half minutes on the floor the pistons did not score one point.

[Q00]

depressing stat: in KCP's 18 and a half minutes on the floor the pistons did not score one point.

That can't be true. It was 9-2 when Cheeks called the first timeout, and KCP was on the court during that first stretch.

[whitehops]

depressing stat: in KCP's 18 and a half minutes on the floor the pistons did not score one point.

That can't be true. It was 9-2 when Cheeks called the first timeout, and KCP was on the court during that first stretch.

maybe I didn't get to see too much of the game. I guess what I meant to say is that KCP's offensive rating for the game was 0. I thought that would've meant they pistons didn't score....


who knows?

[Q00]

depressing stat: in KCP's 18 and a half minutes on the floor the pistons did not score one point.

That can't be true. It was 9-2 when Cheeks called the first timeout, and KCP was on the court during that first stretch.

maybe I didn't get to see too much of the game. I guess what I meant to say is that KCP's offensive rating for the game was 0. I thought that would've meant they pistons didn't score....


who knows?

wow, was it really 0? I knew he had a bad game, but didn't know it was that bad

[whitehops]

That can't be true. It was 9-2 when Cheeks called the first timeout, and KCP was on the court during that first stretch.

maybe I didn't get to see too much of the game. I guess what I meant to say is that KCP's offensive rating for the game was 0. I thought that would've meant they pistons didn't score....


who knows?

wow, was it really 0? I knew he had a bad game, but didn't know it was that bad

yeah his offensive rating was 0 and he had the worst defensive rating on the team...

he probably only played during Miami's hot stretches: http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 80DET.html

[ripper3264]

Can't anyone just tell Josh to stop shooting and that he's hurting the team when he does? I'm not sure if Mo is alright with those shots or that Josh just doesn't care... but something needs to change

[Clarity]

Can't anyone just tell Josh to stop shooting and that he's hurting the team when he does?

This is what his 9th year?, & hes the same airhead on offense hes always been so he wont ever change but its hard to believe no one has ever said anything to him lol.

[hoophabit]

Can't anyone just tell Josh to stop shooting and that he's hurting the team when he does? I'm not sure if Mo is alright with those shots or that Josh just doesn't care... but something needs to change

I'm not going to suggest that Josh Smith is a great offensive player, but sometimes gets grief when it's just a case of "conventional wisdom." Smith shot 6 of 14 last night, or 43%. Not a great game, but not the kind of shooting that puts you out of a game. Don't get me wrong, I cringe as often as anyone else. I sometimes wish he'd fake the baited three and use it as an opening to shoot a pass down low for a better shot.

[Q00]

Can't anyone just tell Josh to stop shooting and that he's hurting the team when he does? I'm not sure if Mo is alright with those shots or that Josh just doesn't care... but something needs to change

The thing is with this starting lineup, if its not Smith shooting the jumpshots, then who?

I think everyone can agree that even though we are a paint-first team, at least a couple players in the starting lineup have to take some jumpshots (make or miss) if for nothing else than to keep from becoming predictable.

So, based on that, when you know Monroe and Drummond aren't options, and you don't want KCP taking an abundance of shots being a rookie (especially when he's shooting worse than Smith), all that leaves is Jennings and Smith.

Well, then you tell Jennings you don't want him shooting either, and want him to play pass-first basketball instead, what other option is left but for Smith to be the one taking these shots?

I don't get why fans can't understand this. I'm totally against it when he takes a shot early in the clock, before other options have been fully explored, but for the most part he has to take the amount of shots he's taking if we are going to continue starting this lineup. If Monroe could develop a jumpshot, or we had a SG who could shoot better, I'm sure they would be going to them first instead. But it is what it is until then. Fortunately, the points in the paint and all the little things he does in other areas of the game tend to outweigh his poor shooting when it comes to the final outcome of games. In other words, its hard to come up with any games that we lost because of Smith's shooting. There's a lot of games though that we won because of key plays made by Smith in crunch time. So I think you just gotta take the good with the bad, and as long we are winning as a team, it shouldn't really matter how much he shoots.

[MrBigShot]

Q00 is 100% right. Somebody has to keep the defense honest. I bet Mo Cheeks not only allows him to shoot them, he probably encourages it. I'm more annoyed with Moose not developing a mid range jumper than Josh shooting threes(the open ones)...we wont a championship with this lineup, barring Dre becoming an elite low post scorer and getting his FT up so that fouling him is no longer a feasible way to stop him. That's possible, but he has a loooooong way to go to get there.

[sc8581]

Can't anyone just tell Josh to stop shooting and that he's hurting the team when he does? I'm not sure if Mo is alright with those shots or that Josh just doesn't care... but something needs to change

The thing is with this starting lineup, if its not Smith shooting the jumpshots, then who?

I think everyone can agree that even though we are a paint-first team, at least a couple players in the starting lineup have to take some jumpshots (make or miss) if for nothing else than to keep from becoming predictable.

So, based on that, when you know Monroe and Drummond aren't options, and you don't want KCP taking an abundance of shots being a rookie (especially when he's shooting worse than Smith), all that leaves is Jennings and Smith.

Well, then you tell Jennings you don't want him shooting either, and want him to play pass-first basketball instead, what other option is left but for Smith to be the one taking these shots?

I don't get why fans can't understand this. I'm totally against it when he takes a shot early in the clock, before other options have been fully explored, but for the most part he has to take the amount of shots he's taking if we are going to continue starting this lineup. If Monroe could develop a jumpshot, or we had a SG who could shoot better, I'm sure they would be going to them first instead. But it is what it is until then. Fortunately, the points in the paint and all the little things he does in other areas of the game tend to outweigh his poor shooting when it comes to the final outcome of games. In other words, its hard to come up with any games that we lost because of Smith's shooting. There's a lot of games though that we won because of key plays made by Smith in crunch time. So I think you just gotta take the good with the bad, and as long we are winning as a team, it shouldn't really matter how much he shoots.

Most that have a clue have known this from the start, even once Monroe gets traded Smith will still take ill-advised shots, just not nearly as many and his efficiency will go up because he will get more opportunities in the paint. I do wonder if he's practicing 3's at all though because so many look so bad lol.

[Notanoob]

Q00 is 100% right. Somebody has to keep the defense honest. I bet Mo Cheeks not only allows him to shoot them, he probably encourages it. I'm more annoyed with Moose not developing a mid range jumper than Josh shooting threes(the open ones)...we wont a championship with this lineup, barring Dre becoming an elite low post scorer and getting his FT up so that fouling him is no longer a feasible way to stop him. That's possible, but he has a loooooong way to go to get there.

We really haven't seen Moose taking enough jumpers to tell if he's actually developed a jumpshot. I don't know if he's confident in it. I suspect that JSmoove taking all of the jumpers is limiting Monroe's opportunities.

I'm pretty uneasy about how the Smith signing will work out for us in both the short and long term, but our SF rotation behind him is so awful-we had to do something to be bearable, I guess. Smith is clearly better off as a PF though. He's having a stretch of really poor play though. Hopefully he'll be able to turn it around without a benching.

[Invictus88]

Q00 is 100% right. Somebody has to keep the defense honest. I bet Mo Cheeks not only allows him to shoot them, he probably encourages it. I'm more annoyed with Moose not developing a mid range jumper than Josh shooting threes(the open ones)...we wont a championship with this lineup, barring Dre becoming an elite low post scorer and getting his FT up so that fouling him is no longer a feasible way to stop him. That's possible, but he has a loooooong way to go to get there.

This logic is utterly flawed and I'm frustrated that it's still being presented on these boards.

You don't keep a defense honest if the person shooting can't reliably make jump shots.

Opposing defenses WANT Smith shooting from the outside. They PURPOSELY leave him alone on the outside so that he will take those shots and clog the lane with the extra defender.

As for an answer to the whole 'If not Josh Smith taking those shots then who?' question, ANY of the options below would be better than Smith:

A). Monroe - Give him a crack at sagging outside. His percentage at this range is higher than Smith's (small sample size) and I'd rather waste shots on him developing a shot then Smoove taking them.

B). Datome, Singler, etc. - This would imply benching Smith. Yup. This would be preferable. Smith has NOT been the defensive player he was billed to be at SF (read the Smith signing thread). He's killing us on the offensive end.

C). Nobody. Smith's defender is already clogging the paint so you might as well have Smith sag down to a range where he is effective.

Continuing to have somebody repeatedly fail at something he has no history (after 9+ years) of doing well is just stupid. Just. Plain. Stupid.

[sc8581]

Q00 is 100% right. Somebody has to keep the defense honest. I bet Mo Cheeks not only allows him to shoot them, he probably encourages it. I'm more annoyed with Moose not developing a mid range jumper than Josh shooting threes(the open ones)...we wont a championship with this lineup, barring Dre becoming an elite low post scorer and getting his FT up so that fouling him is no longer a feasible way to stop him. That's possible, but he has a loooooong way to go to get there.

This logic is utterly flawed and I'm frustrated that it's still being presented on these boards.

You don't keep a defense honest if the person shooting can't reliably make jump shots.

Opposing defenses WANT Smith shooting from the outside. They PURPOSELY leave him alone on the outside so that he will take those shots and clog the lane with the extra defender.

As for an answer to the whole 'If not Josh Smith taking those shots then who?' question, ANY of the options below would be better than Smith:

A). Monroe - Give him a crack at sagging outside. His percentage at this range is higher than Smith's (small sample size) and I'd rather waste shots on him developing a shot then Smoove taking them.

B). Datome, Singler, etc. - This would imply benching Smith. Yup. This would be preferable. Smith has NOT been the defensive player he was billed to be at SF (read the Smith signing thread). He's killing us on the offensive end.

C). Nobody. Smith's defender is already clogging the paint so you might as well have Smith sag down to a range where he is effective.

Continuing to have somebody repeatedly fail at something he has no history (after 9+ years) of doing well is just stupid. Just. Plain. Stupid.

Just because it's stupid doesn't mean Cheeks isn't behind it, that actually sounds about right doesn't it? lol

[MrBigShot]

This logic is utterly flawed and I'm frustrated that it's still being presented on these boards.

You don't keep a defense honest if the person shooting can't reliably make jump shots.

Opposing defenses WANT Smith shooting from the outside. They PURPOSELY leave him alone on the outside so that he will take those shots and clog the lane with the extra defender.

As for an answer to the whole 'If not Josh Smith taking those shots then who?' question, ANY of the options below would be better than Smith:

A). Monroe - Give him a crack at sagging outside. His percentage at this range is higher than Smith's (small sample size) and I'd rather waste shots on him developing a shot then Smoove taking them.

B). Datome, Singler, etc. - This would imply benching Smith. Yup. This would be preferable. Smith has NOT been the defensive player he was billed to be at SF (read the Smith signing thread). He's killing us on the offensive end.

C). Nobody. Smith's defender is already clogging the paint so you might as well have Smith sag down to a range where he is effective.

Continuing to have somebody repeatedly fail at something he has no history (after 9+ years) of doing well is just stupid. Just. Plain. Stupid.

Just because it's stupid doesn't mean Cheeks isn't behind it, that actually sounds about right doesn't it? lol

Bingo. That logic is the reality, until Mo Cheeks changes up the lineup or we acquire a legitimate SF. I've already stated before that I don't think Smith/Monroe/Drummond starting together will work. I didn't state that Smith jacking up 4-5 threes was the best option(some of which are not wide open), in fact I alluded to the fact that I'd rather have Monroe shooting mid range jumpers (though I'm not sure he's improved at it). Option C is not realistic. Option B is unlikely as well; I don't see Mo Cheeks benching a marquee FA getting paid 13.5 mil yearly. Option A is a gamble, because Monroe hasn't proved that he can hit the jumper consistently.

[Invictus88]

This logic is utterly flawed and I'm frustrated that it's still being presented on these boards.

You don't keep a defense honest if the person shooting can't reliably make jump shots.

Opposing defenses WANT Smith shooting from the outside. They PURPOSELY leave him alone on the outside so that he will take those shots and clog the lane with the extra defender.

As for an answer to the whole 'If not Josh Smith taking those shots then who?' question, ANY of the options below would be better than Smith:

A). Monroe - Give him a crack at sagging outside. His percentage at this range is higher than Smith's (small sample size) and I'd rather waste shots on him developing a shot then Smoove taking them.

B). Datome, Singler, etc. - This would imply benching Smith. Yup. This would be preferable. Smith has NOT been the defensive player he was billed to be at SF (read the Smith signing thread). He's killing us on the offensive end.

C). Nobody. Smith's defender is already clogging the paint so you might as well have Smith sag down to a range where he is effective.

Continuing to have somebody repeatedly fail at something he has no history (after 9+ years) of doing well is just stupid. Just. Plain. Stupid.

Just because it's stupid doesn't mean Cheeks isn't behind it, that actually sounds about right doesn't it? lol

Bingo. That logic is the reality, until Mo Cheeks changes up the lineup or we acquire a legitimate SF. I've already stated before that I don't think Smith/Monroe/Drummond starting together will work. I didn't state that Smith jacking up 4-5 threes was the best option(some of which are not wide open), in fact I alluded to the fact that I'd rather have Monroe shooting mid range jumpers (though I'm not sure he's improved at it). Option C is not realistic. Option B is unlikely as well; I don't see Mo Cheeks benching a marquee FA getting paid 13.5 mil yearly. Option A is a gamble, because Monroe hasn't proved that he can hit the jumper consistently.

I was focusing on pure basketball strategy and not including maintaining JoeD's job security, etc. In this case, option A and B are really the best choices here.

Even with Option C, if you just have Smith not sag and look to exclusively pass on the wing (and never shoot) I think that would be preferable. If it means we shoot 5 less 3 pointers per game then I am still very happy with that.

And btw, our offense is really predictable NOW. That's why the Pistons look to run at every opportunity -- even if it means forcing the ball and increased turnovers. Our half court offense is stagnant and the players know it.