Stein: Strong possibility Bucks active due to slow start

LUKE23 · Post #301 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:43 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:yep.

Go post a topic named, "OJ Mayo and Larry Sanders have similar trade value" on the General Board, and see the responses you get.

Ron Swanson · Post #302 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:45 pm

LUKE23 wrote:What do people think Mayo does well? I'm interested. His overall efficiency is right around league average or worse. His turnover rate is high and his defense is very poor. His on/off metrics show teams as being better with him off the floor every season of his career, similar to Gooden. Basically his entire value is tied to how well he's shooting the 3 ball. Why do you think his FA interest was minimal? Are all other GM's dumb?

I don't think his efficiency affects his value so much. If that were the case, then why did Detroit give up assets for Brandon Jennings? And why did Monta get a decent sized contract from Dallas?

Teams still value guys that are young and have a legit offensive skill set. I personally don't think OJ's that good of a player either, but the fact is that he's 25 and, to a contender, can legitimately provide you with decent offense off the bench in a JR Smith and Jamaal Crawford type role. Thus why he still has value to certain GMs.

It's just unfortunate that we signed him to a 3-year deal and slightly overpaid. Barring injury or a complete regression in his game, he'll be a valuable asset as an expiring contract in less than 2 years.

Nebula1 · Post #303 » by **Nebula1** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:50 pm

Redd was way better than Mayo. I agree Mayo is overpaid and not the same quality asset as either Sanders or Ilyasova.

Mayo got overpaid to play for the Bucks. Simple as that. I don't hate him, but like PP said, he's irrelevant on this team. I have no beef with him since he's just going through the motions for now.

I do disagree he's got any trade value. I think a contender would rather have Neal on his deal than Mayo.

emunney · Post #304 » by **emunney** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:51 pm

I could see somebody dumb giving up something relatively valuable for Mayo. Usual suspects: Cavs, Wizards, Nets, Knicks, Kings, Pistons. Then you have the darkhorse -- brilliant old school teams like the Spurs who occasionally take an expensive flier and put their trust in Pop.

Post #305 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:51 pm

Bucks Offensive Rating with Mayo on the court: 91.0
Bucks Offensive Rating with Mayo off the court: 100.9

That off the court number is highest on the team.

LUKE23 · Post #306 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:53 pm

I'd answer your first part by saying that Detroit and Dallas both have questionable management, which is why both teams are locked into either late lottery or first round exit teams for the next few years at least.

I just don't see anything Mayo does that dozens of guys throughout the NBA can't do. He's a very good 3 point shooter, and a decent ball handler when he's not forced to initiate offense. He's a guy that will give you probably 15 ppg at league average or slightly above league average efficiency, and not provide much else. I just think there are a lot of guys that could do that to be honest. Hell, if Neal had Mayo's minutes this year, I doubt you could tell their numbers apart.

LUKE23 · Post #307 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:55 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:Bucks Offensive Rating with Mayo on the court: 91.0
Bucks Offensive Rating with Mayo off the court: 100.9

That off the court number is highest on the team.

And from what I recall, that jives with the rest of his career.

Post #308 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:58 pm

You couldn't tell Neal and Mayo apart, because like I said a page ago, they're the same player. We have people here saying Mayo on his deal is a fine value. Again, I'll ask: does that make Gary Neal a ridiculous bargain?

Ron Swanson · Post #309 » by **Ron Swanson** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:08 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I'd answer your first part by saying that Detroit and Dallas both have questionable management, which is why both teams are locked into either late lottery or first round exit teams for the next few years at least.

I just don't see anything Mayo does that dozens of guys throughout the NBA can't do. He's a very good 3 point shooter, and a decent ball handler when he's not forced to initiate offense. He's a guy that will give you probably 15 ppg at league average or slightly above league average efficiency, and not provide much else. I just think there are a lot of guys that could do that to be honest. Hell, if Neal had Mayo's minutes this year, I doubt you could tell their numbers apart.

I pretty much agree with all of this. It's all relative to what you think you could get for him. I think you could legitimately get a playoff team to cough up a late first and/or young prospect for him at next year's deadline if you're talking to the right GM (ie taking advantage of dumb front offices). Or maybe something like OJ to Charlotte for Biyombo and two 2nd rounders?

Like I said, it's difficult to assess his value right now because he just signed a multi-year deal, but he could definitely be an asset or a key part of a future package when he's an expiring.

LedZepp007 · Post #310 » by **LedZepp007** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:27 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:You couldn't tell Neal and Mayo apart, because like I said a page ago, they're the same player. We have people here saying Mayo on his deal is a fine value. Again, I'll ask: does that make Gary Neal a ridiculous bargain?

Here you are with your hyperbole and black-and-white thinking. Gary Neal isn't a "ridiculous bargain" when compared to anyone. Secondly, Mayo is clearly a better playmaker, defender, athlete, and (probably) shooter than Neal. So, not the same player at all.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think he's good. I just think he is very average.

Post #311 » by **ReasonablySober** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:34 pm

LedZepp007 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:You couldn't tell Neal and Mayo apart, because like I said a page ago, they're the same player. We have people here saying Mayo on his deal is a fine value. Again, I'll ask: does that make Gary Neal a ridiculous bargain?

Here you are with your hyperbole and black-and-white thinking. Gary Neal isn't a "ridiculous bargain" when compared to anyone. Secondly, Mayo is clearly a better playmaker, defender, athlete, and (probably) shooter than Neal. So, not the same player at all.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think he's good. I just think he is very average.

Based on what? Going strictly by the numbers I'm not sure you could find two players that compare more favorably to each other.

Nebula1 · Post #312 » by **Nebula1** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:35 pm

emunney wrote:I could see somebody dumb giving up something relatively valuable for Mayo. Usual suspects: Cavs, Wizards, Nets, Knicks, Kings, Pistons. Then you have the darkhorse -- brilliant old school teams like the Spurs who occasionally take an expensive flier and put their trust in Pop.

I'm sure Mayo could find a way to be effective in San Antonio. He might help the Hornets too as a reserve.

Then again, if I'm the Hornets, I'd rather just have Neal.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #313 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:38 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:yep.

Go post a topic named, "OJ Mayo and Larry Sanders have similar trade value" on the General Board, and see the responses you get.

if you asked for anything more than salary relief back on either one of them youd probably get hung up on.
neither player right now is capable of generating a bunch of youth or picks in trade. id argue its very possible that neither even got back that.

their value is in the same general ballpark. im not going to post a thread on the general board so everybody can argue about what "general ballpark" means.

if you want to argue about this then give me a hypothetical sanders trade that gives back more... that a team would actually agree to. i want to see the team that does it and what you think the return would be. good luck with that btw.

Nebula1 · Post #314 » by **Nebula1** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:43 pm

I can tell you Houston would give up much more for Sanders than they would for Mayo. Much more.

LedZepp007 · Post #315 » by **LedZepp007** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:44 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
LedZepp007 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:You couldn't tell Neal and Mayo apart, because like I said a page ago, they're the same player. We have people here saying Mayo on his deal is a fine value. Again, I'll ask: does that make Gary Neal a ridiculous bargain?

Here you are with your hyperbole and black-and-white thinking. Gary Neal isn't a "ridiculous bargain" when compared to anyone. Secondly, Mayo is clearly a better playmaker, defender, athlete, and (probably) shooter than Neal. So, not the same player at all.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think he's good. I just think he is very average.

Based on what? Going strictly by the numbers I'm not sure you could find two players that compare more favorably to each other.

First of all, you should compare their career stats, not 2013-14. Secondly, you are again neglecting the fact that Neal has (and does) play his minutes against reserves. Put him in a starting role and I guarantee he substantially less effective than Mayo.

Like I said, though, Mayo is average. Gary Neal is a poor man's Mayo.

LedZepp007 · Post #316 » by **LedZepp007** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:46 pm

GOS give it up. There are plenty of shooters in the league and only a few elite defensive big men. Sanders has double the value of Mayo.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #317 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:46 pm

ReasonablySober wrote:
LedZepp007 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:You couldn't tell Neal and Mayo apart, because like I said a page ago, they're the same player. We have people here saying Mayo on his deal is a fine value. Again, I'll ask: does that make Gary Neal a ridiculous bargain?

Here you are with your hyperbole and black-and-white thinking. Gary Neal isn't a "ridiculous bargain" when compared to anyone. Secondly, Mayo is clearly a better playmaker, defender, athlete, and (probably) shooter than Neal. So, not the same player at all.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think he's good. I just think he is very average.

Based on what? Going strictly by the numbers I'm not sure you could find two players that compare more favorably to each other.

really? the compare a backup to the starter in less minutes routine?

mayo is more efficient in a much harder role.... flipflop them and see how they look if neals playing 30 minutes a game against starters and mayo in the 20 minute role against the backups. they wouldnt look even close if mayo was willing to embrace the role.

LUKE23 · Post #318 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:47 pm

Their value is not in the same general ballpark. If every GM in the NBA completely ignored defense and advanced analytics as we sit here in 2013, then you might have a point. If all GM's sorted by PPG to assign value to players, you might have a point. But defensive anchors are so much harder to find than a dime a dozen wing like Mayo. The only GM's who would probably want Mayo are those that have continuously valued PPGZ, and it's likely going to be a team that isn't winning much.

LUKE23 · Post #319 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:48 pm

Ah, the "if he was a bench player he'd only be going against bench players and thus his numbers would be so much better" argument. Always a classic.

GHOSTofSIKMA · Post #320 » by **GHOSTofSIKMA** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:52 pm

LedZepp007 wrote:GOS give it up. There are plenty of shooters in the league and only a few elite defensive big men. Sanders has double the value of Mayo.

the sg position in the league right now is weaker than its ever been. theres centers of sanders caliber and impact all over the place.

but then again... maybe im wrong. you said he was elite right? which is the team thats gonna give us a bunch of youth and picks for him that im forgetting?