Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing

[tontoz]

They played well and the Wizards still won only 29 games. That should tell you that it wasn't the right time to make an expensive, win now trade.

You totally missed the main point of my earlier post...so here it is again. Notice the word "first step":

Being competitive in every game, playing good defense, acting like pros on and off the court, etc. was exactly the kind of culture change the Zards needed in order to make the first step of going from a bottom dweller to a team that competes for the playoffs...and eventually to a contender.

First step? Then what about the years before that? What were those steps? How about the Arenas trade? What step was that?

"Eventually". That is exactly the type of zero accountability mindset that has allowed EG to keep his job. Anyone can say, in a few years we will be good. And then a few years later, rinse and repeat. Never any actual accountability for results.

This "culture change" happened the day Mcgee and Young were traded(which step was that lol). They didn't need to spend $40 million to change the culture.

[mhd]

BTW, Nick Young was NEVER a problem as far as I can tell on the Wizards. Was he a bad team defender? Yeah, but he wasn't a bad guy at all. He was made a scapegoat by our stupid GM. Have you ever heard of N1 being a bad locker room guy on any of his other teams? Nope.


The reason we sucked was that we lacked TALENT! Why? Because, EG is a moron in drafting and developing it!

[payitforward]

The Nene and Okafor trades were a waste of time and effort. ... Do you think that team has championship potential.

This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach.

As I mentioned before, if that were the prevailing logic around the league, every team not named Miami/Indy/OKC/SA would be scrambling to shed assets to compete in the lottery (although there would be no takers because nobody would want to "waste their time" winning games). But they aren't doing that. A number of teams are trying to win as many games as they can, even though they don't have a chance at the title. Why that is looked down upon, I don't understand.

I just can't agree that this team making the playoffs (but not winning a title) for rest of Nene's contract would be a "waste of time" and so they should instead be shedding players and hoping Wall breaks a pinkie so they can get a high lottery pick. I'll never agree with that kind of thinking.

And if the team gets a new GM, I still won't agree with that kind of thinking. I don't have a personal attachment to Ernie as much as I have agreed with him making moves to try to win games. Like the Jamison trade - would you really trade those Big Three years to have 4 losing years with a young Devin Harris or Luol Deng (who haven't won any titles either, by the way)? I'd rather have Jamison and the wins.

Again, if you disagree, that's fine. But I think it's a mistake to view anything other than a championship as of so little value as to be a "waste of time".

Go Wiz!

Your last sentence first: no one has ever said that. I'm not sure anyone has ever said that in any sport. In any era. I do think that people have said that if you don't aim at winning a championship you're unlikely ever to contend to win a championship, and in fact you're likely to be a lame franchise run by a lame FO. Like ours.

Now your first paragraph: "This is the thinking I was referring to. If your perspective is that all teams should ONLY make moves that directly result in championship contention, and if there are no such moves immediately available they should then tank for the highest pick possible - that's fine, but I think that's an unrealistic all-or-nothing approach."

I don't know that anyone's ever said that either. Especially since "tank for the highest pick possible" could easily be one of those "moves that directly result in championship contention." Isn't that kind of obvious? Maybe you should ask yourself why you want to be so determinedly rhetorical?

I think where that "thinking" you think is so "wrong" heads is towards not making horrible draft choices. Not trading high picks for over the hill players, not consistently chucking away high round 2 picks, not going all in to reach average, not not throwing away an extraordinary opportunity to draft high and have enormous cap room and flexibility.

Oh and maybe, just maybe, the fans are getting sick and tired of a decade-long 30% win pace. Maybe they'd like a GM who could build *any kind* of a winner -- many things short of a title would be a great deal better than the results we've had over the years. And if, somehow, a one-game .500 record at the 20% point of his 11th season with the assets and luck he's had to work with, is what you'd like to point to in defense of Ernie, why then....

maybe finally once and for all you'll explain clearly what you like so much about the man and his work -- do you really think that if you never ever do that, but instead you paint phony pictures of people who do no more than point at obvious facts like those above, you can expect anyone to believe you when you claim you have no "relationship" with Ernie and/or the Wizards organization? Sorry, no.

[hands11]

You said that Okariza trade helped the team win games. And both Ariza and Okafor did play well last season. But they won 29 did they not?

Fixed.

They played well and the Wizards still won only 29 games. That should tell you that it wasn't the right time to make an expensive, win now trade.

Trevor A / Okafor wasn't a win now trade. It was a get better players around Wall trade so Wall would get better. And now Beal as well.

You define failure by defining the terms of the trade incorrectly. Trevor A is still an asset last I checked. And they would have won more not because of anything TA or Oakfor didn't do. It was Wall injured and Beal and Nene.

Look there is lots of gray between what happened, what is and what will come of this. Answers we don't have. Sure they could have done things differently. They could have even kept Dray and kept the amnesty for another year down the road. And had they kept Dray and he rebounded like he did, they might have been able to traded him for an asset.

But Trevor A and Okafor for a dead weight Lewis contract was a nice grab. And after one productive year of Okafor that helped the team start to turn things around, they used him in a pinch to get Gortat who is helping Wall develop a whole new part of his game that is really important for the PG.. the pick n roll. Not sure Wall develops that so soon into this year without Gortat here.

How good or how bad this ends up will have to do with what they do with Trevor A and Gortat moving forward. You can't grade the trade completely without knowing that answer. Had it just been TA and Okafor for two years for Lewis, it was a clear win. But now they gave up another asset to get Gortat which flips it a little more in the negative. But what if they resign Gortat and Okafor comes back cheap or and they keep or get something good for Trevor A. So which still unknown about how this turns out. But we should know the answers soon.

Your evaluating of grading the trade by last years total wins is kind of bogus in terms of a detail evaluation. But I guess the simplicity of that argument is convenient for those that want to agree with you.

[hands11]

BTW, Nick Young was NEVER a problem as far as I can tell on the Wizards. Was he a bad team defender? Yeah, but he wasn't a bad guy at all. He was made a scapegoat by our stupid GM. Have you ever heard of N1 being a bad locker room guy on any of his other teams? Nope.


The reason we sucked was that we lacked TALENT! Why? Because, EG is a moron in drafting and developing it!

Nick was not a leader regarding being a problem, he was just part of the pack. He wasn't a scapegoat. He just wanted to much damn money. He was asking for 10M a year.

Gil, Nick, McGee and Dray. Its was Gil that was the leader. Dray was his his Lt. McGee and Nick were the bobsie twins. Frick and Frack. Hey, there was some talent there but not a complete player in the bunch. Dray was probably the closest to a two way player but he showed up all neck fatty and broke down mentally under the pressure of being the best player in the post.

There was talent. There just wasn't any professionalism. Any new young player you would have brought into that zoo would have been infected. Hell, I worried about Wall getting infected. At least Beal arrived to a sanitized team with actually professionals on it.

I think people undervalue the deep and longevity of suck and dysfunction this team experienced under Abe/Wes/La Suz. That kind of stench is not deodorized in just a few years. That kind of pooh has to be scrapped off in layers.

We can upgrade coaching and GM from here. I don't think we could have two years ago. The stink was still to strong. Now the only strong smell is Maynor breaking wind on the bench.

A new top level coach and GM should be able to remake this team into a sustainable winner in about two years.

[tontoz]

BTW, Nick Young was NEVER a problem as far as I can tell on the Wizards. Was he a bad team defender? Yeah, but he wasn't a bad guy at all. He was made a scapegoat by our stupid GM. Have you ever heard of N1 being a bad locker room guy on any of his other teams? Nope.


The reason we sucked was that we lacked TALENT! Why? Because, EG is a moron in drafting and developing it!

I agree that Nick wasn't a bad guy. He just wasn't a very bright one. He was a good shooter and a good man defender but was going to be a UFA that summer.

Speaking of Nick this move would make McGee proud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCwiW_YzSLM

[hands11]

BTW, Nick Young was NEVER a problem as far as I can tell on the Wizards. Was he a bad team defender? Yeah, but he wasn't a bad guy at all. He was made a scapegoat by our stupid GM. Have you ever heard of N1 being a bad locker room guy on any of his other teams? Nope.


The reason we sucked was that we lacked TALENT! Why? Because, EG is a moron in drafting and developing it!

I agree that Nick wasn't a bad guy. He just wasn't a very bright one. He was a good shooter and a good man defender but was going to be a UFA that summer.

Speaking of Nick this move would make McGee proud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCwiW_YzSLM

I saw it live and thought the exact same thing.

[hands11]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400489198

Jazz has some interesting pieces

Trey Burke is going to be a stud PG. He is already totally running the team. Real baby CP3 style to him.
Jeremy Evans is starting to get it going
Derrick Favors is legit
Marvin Williams.. Marrrvin. He can play.
Gordon Hayward is a real nice player.
Alec Burks has talent
Enes Kanter is pretty decent. He gets over powered at times
Rudy Gobert nice young prospect. Give him 2-3 years
Brandon Rush is a nice option off the bench at SG
Andris Biedrins just their 3rd center.

And lots of cap room
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah.htm

This team could start to get it together this year. And if they hold their draft pick, another nice draft for them and they should be set.

Burke and Gorbert was a nice draft for them.

RESTRICTED
Derrick Favors
Gordon Hayward

UNRESTRICTED
Andris Biedrins
Richard Jefferson
Brandon Rush
Marvin Williams

Can we have their team please ?

[Ruzious]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400489198

Jazz has some interesting pieces

Trey Burke is going to be a stud PG. He is already totally running the team. Real baby CP3 style to him.
Jeremy Evans is starting to get it going
Derrick Favors is legit
Marvin Williams.. Marrrvin. He can play.
Gordon Hayward is a real nice player.
Alec Burks has talent
Enes Kanter is pretty decent. He gets over powered at times
Rudy Gobert nice young prospect. Give him 2-3 years
Brandon Rush is a nice option off the bench at SG
Andris Biedrins just their 3rd center.

And lots of cap room
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/utah.htm

This team could start to get it together this year. And if they hold their draft pick, another nice draft for them and they should be set.

Burke and Gorbert was a nice draft for them.

RESTRICTED
Derrick Favors
Gordon Hayward

UNRESTRICTED
Andris Biedrins
Richard Jefferson
Brandon Rush
Marvin Williams

Can we have their team please ?

That Hoopshype.com link hasn't been updated. Favors signed a 4 year extension at 12 mil per year. http://data.shamsports.com/content/page ... s/jazz.jsp I agree they have a lot of nice pieces, but the problem with the Jazz is they don't have a legit star, imo. Maybe they thought Hayward was going to be that guy, but he's not, and they're likely going to over-pay to keep him. Favors and Kanter can both become very good - but probably not great - Kanter seems to have regressed so far this season.

[payitforward]

I note that since the last post in this thread, we are 1-2. Apparently that's good enough not to warrant any further attempts to open Ernie's parachute.

Marc Stein has written that Ted "prefers" to assess Ernie and Randy after the season. At this point, I see nothing to assess, but he's not firing Ernie until at least April it seems. I guess I'll put away my voodoo doll and pins.

...nah.

[fishercob]

I note that since the last post in this thread, we are 1-2. Apparently that's good enough not to warrant any further attempts to open Ernie's parachute.

Marc Stein has written that Ted "prefers" to assess Ernie and Randy after the season. At this point, I see nothing to assess, but he's not firing Ernie until at least April it seems. I guess I'll put away my voodoo doll and pins.

...nah.

What I'm hoping he meant was that he prefers to "fire" Ernie after the season, because it would be disruptive to do so in-season.

[leswizards]

There might be some deals available at the trade deadline to improve the Wizards' fortunes for the future. Does Ted really want EG blowing even more opportunities?

[closg00]

*Bump* We must remain ever vigilant

[hands11]

There might be some deals available at the trade deadline to improve the Wizards' fortunes for the future. Does Ted really want EG blowing even more opportunities?

Would a new GM be able to step in and help right away, or just avoid potential mistakes ?

Mostly right now, I want a new coach. Our offense sucks. Team isn't learning quick enough. Randy is supposed to be this defensive coach yet time after time I hear Wall saying we didn't play any defense.

He is in love with this pairing of Booker and Gortat which repeatedly get outplayed. Its just not a good pairing most night. Yeah Bookers line looks nice, but Gortat doesn't play well with him out there and the other team produces more then they do combined. AJ also always had a nice line. Problem is, he gave up more then he scored and him being a black hole on defense broke the defense down for the entire team.

Yeah, the roster has issues that need addressed. They needed to trade one of Booker or Singleton and they didn't. They needed a big tall back up center at a min. But Randy just isn't getting it done either. Same excuses game after game.

"Well, we talked about that. We didn't play defense. We took to many jumpers and didn't attack the basket"

Why Randy ? Why are they not doing those things ? Why are they coming out flat ?

Think Randy. What is it.

[Upper Decker]

After last nights debacle, where it was clear every one of EG's recent moves were poor decisions, i.e. drafting Otto, drafting Beal, thinking Gortat was worth a 1st in a loaded draft, Ted should can his ass. Instead Ted will blog about how clever he is for retaining a GM and a coach on lame duck seasons and how that pushed his team into the playoffs! Awesome Ted! Worst conference in sports history and you'll make the playoffs while being 10 games under .500. Party in DC!

[hands11]

After last nights debacle, where it was clear every one of EG's recent moves were poor decisions, i.e. drafting Otto, drafting Beal, thinking Gortat was worth a 1st in a loaded draft, Ted should can his ass. Instead Ted will blog about how clever he is for retaining a GM and a coach on lame duck seasons and how that pushed his team into the playoffs! Awesome Ted! Worst conference in sports history and you'll make the playoffs while being 10 games under .500. Party in DC!

Actually, Otto showed us a little of what he can do last night. It was a small taste. Keep in mind what a late start he got and how young he is. He is 20 1/2

http://stats.nba.com/playerGameLogs.htm ... PerPage=25

If you click on any of the blue links you can see the videos. Click on FGA and Rebounds.

Otto is a long dude. That stands out a lot. He also shows he has some handles and that is huge for this team because they have so few players that have any. His handles are better then Beals already. The break away dunk was nice. He still needs to find his range but it looks like its should come around. He rebounds. Who cares if he is skinny ? He is a SF. His length is his advantage. He will get stronger in time.

Not sure Otto is going to be the bust some thought. Actually, I think he is getting closer to contributing.
Beal bounced back nicely from his knee bumping.

I also clicked on 5 player line ups. Did you know the Wizards have 3 of the ones listed on the first page.

Wall, Beal, Trevor A, Nene, Gortat
Wall, Beal, Webster, Nene, Gortat
Weal, Webster, Trevor A, Nene, Gortat

Yeah, Nene and Gortat in the post with shooters and a top PG. Seems to work. But that's only a total of 6 players.

Where they are lacking is they need another post player. Not a replacement. An additional one. Otto getting better will be nice. Specially if he has handles. That helps move Webster to SG so we have great depth at SG and SF and a PG that can play 36 mins at game who is one of the best in the league. That would be 7 players.

And Nene and Gortat as a combo is up there as well. That's very solid. But as is, they would need one of Kevin S or Ves to really make a leap. Booker is a great energy guy but we just aren't going to get there with him as the starting PF. At a min, the combination has to add up to an average player to compliment Nene and Gortat. Clearly the one closest to doing it is Kevin. He is the one with the size, scoring and athleticism.

Amazing to think so much rides on Kevin S. If he can just get to baby Nene level, this team would be at the next level. Now if we had a already solid performer down there like a Bozier, this team would be 2nd round material. Even a healthy Zaza would help. Even a Tyler Hansbrough would help.

They are getting closer. But close and there are a mile away sometimes.

[nate33]

He is in love with this pairing of Booker and Gortat which repeatedly get outplayed. Its just not a good pairing most night. Yeah Bookers line looks nice, but Gortat doesn't play well with him out there and the other team produces more then they do combined. AJ also always had a nice line. Problem is, he gave up more then he scored and him being a black hole on defense broke the defense down for the entire team.

The team has won 4 of their last 5 games with the Booker/Gortat pairing in the starting lineup. I can't even fathom why you think it's a bad idea when the team is clearly playing much better. Moving Nene to the bench has helped the second unit far more than dropping him from the starting lineup has hurt the starters.

I'll also point out that Booker did an excellent job on Drummond last night - holding him to 4 points and 3 turnovers, with just 2 offensive boards in 29 minutes. (And yes, it was Booker on Drummond, with Gortat on Monroe.)

[hands11]

He is in love with this pairing of Booker and Gortat which repeatedly get outplayed. Its just not a good pairing most night. Yeah Bookers line looks nice, but Gortat doesn't play well with him out there and the other team produces more then they do combined. AJ also always had a nice line. Problem is, he gave up more then he scored and him being a black hole on defense broke the defense down for the entire team.

The team has won 4 of their last 5 games with the Booker/Gortat pairing in the starting lineup. I can't even fathom why you think it's a bad idea when the team is clearly playing much better. Moving Nene to the bench has helped the second unit far more than dropping him from the starting lineup has hurt the starters.

I'll also point out that Booker did an excellent job on Drummond last night - holding him to 4 points and 3 turnovers, with just 2 offensive boards in 29 minutes. (And yes, it was Booker on Drummond, with Gortat on Monroe.)

You know I love Nene off the bench so lets not act like I don't. Its what I wanted before the season started. Well, one of him or Okafor.

Booker and Gortat getting it done against DET isn't something I wouldn't count on. I'm glad they won. I expected them to win at home. Specially after the blow out. And Booker has done a very Booker job lately. But DET folded. That was not the usual DET team we experience. The team held together better then I expect with those two out there. I saw a win. Not a blow out. Wall played great. But we also got plenty of Gortat and Nene to help put the game away.

I don't hate Booker. Actually, I like what he does. I just still don't see him as what we need at PF if Gortat is the center. He is going to have to really bring it every single night in order for that to work. Maybe he can do it. Its just not an ideal pairing unless he can be Faried most nights. Gortat is better with a bigger player next to him.

[TGW]

Booker outplayed Drummond last night. You would NEVER say that about Seraphin or Vesley. Those 2 are d-league calibre players.

[nate33]

You know I love Nene off the bench so lets not act like I don't. Its what I wanted before the season started. Well, one of him or Okafor.

If that's the case, then this conversation should be over.

If we all agree that Gortat should start. And we all agree that it's working to have Nene come off the bench, then the rest is academic. Booker is without question the only other person on the roster capable of handling starting PF duties. There is a gap the size of the Grand Canyon between Booker and either of Vesely, Seraphin or Singleton.

The only other conceivable option would be to start Ariza at PF, but then we lose our wing depth.