My new project: top-5 1-year player peaks ever

[Gregoire]

Still waiting some of these guys

ElGee
JulesWinnfield
Reservoirdawgs
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
rravenred
PaulieWall
Gideon
Infamous1
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
SummitAllstar
parapooper
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
HeartBreakKid
An Unbiased Fan
MisterHibachi

[lorak]

Gregorie, will you do some sort of summary?

[Gregoire]

Gregorie, will you do some sort of summary?

Yes, when majority of posters I mentioned wll give the lists, I would do overall rating of top-5 or top-10 peaks according to voting.

[lorak]

Well, it may take a lot of time until majority will give lists. This thread is already more than two months old and many posters posted their lists, so I think it would be nice to see how it (results) looks right now.

[Gregoire]

Well, it may take a lot of time until majority will give lists. This thread is already more than two months old and many posters posted their lists, so I think it would be nice to see how it (results) looks right now.

Ok, I will post the results here later.

[Gregoire]

Suggestion of DavidStern is reasonable, so I decided to count all votes and give you current list of top-10 peaks according to PC board posters voting, which posted here in my thread.

Some notes:

1. Posters Gideon and fpliii didnt give me complete lists, so I didnt include them now. I wish they would made some adjustments and I will receive complete list.

2. ElGee rankings I took from past year voting because he soon didnt answer here, I hope he will.

3. I hope others posters which I invited to participate will vote soon. And obviously the topic is open for every poster to vote.

Here we go: I counted 28 voters and first of all this is the list of top ranked peaks:

MJ - 18 votes
Shaq - 7 votes
Wilt - 1 vote
Hakeem - 1 vote
Lebron - 1 vote

List of inclusions in top-5 from 28 voters:

MJ - 28
Shaq - 27
Lebron - 23
Wilt - 20
Hakeem - 13
Bird - 13
Kareem -7
Russell - 6
Oscar - 2
Magic - 2
Doctor J -1
Duncan - 1

[Gregoire]

Well, now I count the results of voting according to system: number one gains 5 points, number 2 - 4 points, 3th place - 3 points, 4th - 2 points, 5th - 1 point.

Here is the top-5 individual peaks ever of RealGM PC board posters voting to 16 december 2013.

1. Michael Jordan - 130 points

2. Shaqiulle O'Neal - 104 points

3. Lebron James - 51 points

4. Wilt Chamberlain - 50 points

5. Hakeem Olajuwon - 26 points

Other players, receiving votes:

6. Larry Bird - 19 points

7. Kareem Abdul - Jabbar - 15 points

8. Bill Russell - 14 points

9. Magic Johnson - 3 points

10. Oscar Robertson -2 points

11. Julius Erving - 1 point

12. Tim Duncan - 1 point

- MJ was included in all lists and his lowest rank was second (10 times).

- Wilt and Lebron are closest as hell, so I hope voting will continue and will help to clarify this debate.

Lets go on, guys!

[Gregoire]

Now waiting for these posters to vote:

ElGee
JulesWinnfield
Reservoirdawgs
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
SummitAllstar
parapooper
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
HeartBreakKid
An Unbiased Fan
MisterHibachi

- Gideon and fpliii - I hope you give your complete top-5 lists in order soon.

- Remember, its not best season or perfomance, but pest peaks, so its who was the best player at his bet.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Off the top of my head:

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 2000 Shaq
3. 1967 Wilt
4. 1986 Bird
5. 2013 Lebron

[Gregoire]

Off the top of my head:

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 2000 Shaq
3. 1967 Wilt
4. 1986 Bird
5. 2013 Lebron

Good list, Bird 86 definetly deserve the mention.

[Quotatious]

Good list, Bird 86 definetly deserve the mention.

Well, if 86 Bird is in anyone's top 5 then 87 Magic also should be. 2003 Duncan too, if someone puts 1994 Hakeem in (or any other version of Hakeem, like 93 or 95).

[Reservoirdawgs]

Good list, Bird 86 definetly deserve the mention.

Well, if 86 Bird is in anyone's top 5 then 87 Magic also should be. 2003 Duncan too, if someone puts 1994 Hakeem in (or any other version of Hakeem, like 93 or 95).

Agreed, all of those years are great and I certainly wouldn't argue if someone wanted to put 1987 Magic or 2003 Duncan. 1987 Magic was the hardest to leave out, but since we're only focusing on five I went with the ones that I was most impressed by.

[ardee]

Good list, Bird 86 definetly deserve the mention.

Well, if 86 Bird is in anyone's top 5 then 87 Magic also should be. 2003 Duncan too, if someone puts 1994 Hakeem in (or any other version of Hakeem, like 93 or 95).

I think Duncan's peak suffers from an overrating of his impact due to competition. The Spurs probably had the weakest title path of any champion ever... they took so many games to win because they weren't very good themselves.

I definitely don't agree that Hakeem and Duncan should be clubbed here. At their peaks Hakeem was a better scorer and defender plus just as good a passer. Duncan was better on the boards but not by much.

He was still a top 10 peak for sure but I see no argument for top 5

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Gregoire]

Good list, Bird 86 definetly deserve the mention.

Well, if 86 Bird is in anyone's top 5 then 87 Magic also should be. 2003 Duncan too, if someone puts 1994 Hakeem in (or any other version of Hakeem, like 93 or 95).

I rank them like this:

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Duncan

[Quotatious]

Agreed, all of those years are great and I certainly wouldn't argue if someone wanted to put 1987 Magic or 2003 Duncan. 1987 Magic was the hardest to leave out, but since we're only focusing on five I went with the ones that I was most impressed by.

Yeah, I think it pretty much comes down to your personal preference, they're just that close.

I think Duncan's peak suffers from an overrating of his impact due to competition. The Spurs probably had the weakest title path of any champion ever... they took so many games to win because they weren't very good themselves.

I guess the fact that the Spurs weren't really good themselves more or less evens out a weak competition, don't you? Besides, I'm not really sure if I'd go as far as to say that 2003 Lakers or Mavs were weak...I actually believe that if Dirk had stayed healthy (he only played in the first three games of that series), the Mavs had a pretty good chance to beat the Spurs. They were basically at the same level - same record in the RS (60-22) and while the Spurs were near the top of the league defensively, the Mavs had the best offense in the league and a really solid defense as well.
Lakers obviously had prime Shaq and Kobe so they automatically qualify as a good team.

I agree that Hakeem's competition was better, but it's not a huge gap. Olajuwon's and Duncan's numbers, impact and efficiency were extremely close and even though Hakeem may've been the better scorer or defender (I don't know about better defender though). I prefer to look at that as a whole and not to scatter them into parts. That's also why I'm a firm believer that Magic was at least as good as Bird, despite Bird being the better shooter, rebounder and defender. Their overall production was basically even, just as Hakeem's and Duncan's.

Hakeem and Tim also had pretty even supporting casts.

I rank them like this:

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Duncan

OK, but the difference between these four guys is marginal. I can see a convincing argument for any of them being #1. If I had to rank them at their peaks, I'd go with:

Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Bird

or to be be more accurate:

Hakeem/Duncan
Magic/Bird

I just like the fact that Olajuwon and Duncan were elite two way bigmen.

[Gregoire]

Now waiting for these posters to vote:

ElGee
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
SummitAllstar
parapooper
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
HeartBreakKid
An Unbiased Fan
MisterHibachi

- Gideon and fpliii - I hope you give your complete top-5 lists in order soon.

[Dr Spaceman]

Was asked by the OP to provide my top 10 list, so here goes:

Since OP asked for the best straight on-court impact, I focused on when each player was at their absolute best, really without regard for accolades and team success. (obviously, some winning bias is unavoidable.) I would always choose the higher impact year than the most impressive year.

1. Lebron James 2012-13
GOAT Offensive player to me. With Lebron, you have the highest chance of getting the best possible shot on any given possession. To me, that defines the best offense. (Reflected in Miami being #1 all-time in EFG%; what better measure of offense is there than putting the ball through the hoop?) Definitely the most versatile player on this list, top 2 playmaker, his game is so varied that he can fill a ton of roles on a team. I don't see a ceiling for a Lebron James-led offense.

2. Michael Jordan 1990-91
After a little deliberation, I decided to put Michael slightly above Shaquille, although in my mind there is just not enough to separate the two. Ultimately, I have them in a tie at two, although if you were to put a gun to my head, I guess I'd take Jordan, simply because I think it's easier to just hand him the ball and say "get me a basket."

3. Shaquille O'Neal 1999-2000
Everything that can be said about his peak has been said already. He and Jordan are the most unstoppable individual forces to ever grace the court.

4. Hakeem Olajuwon 1992-93
Hugely impactful defensive player, nearly unstoppable offensive player. I wish he had been closer to his peak throughout the rest of his career. I chose this season as I believe it was his defensive peak. With Hakeem, I view defense as the thing that gets him into the GOAT conversation. He was better offensively the next two years, but only slightly, and I don't feel he was quite the menace defensiv ely.

5. Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
It was tough to rank Wilt, as it's just difficult to get enough information about him. Ultimately, I was swayed by the fact that he seemed to really "put it all together" for this one year (ie. playing within himself, becoming a part of an offensive flow). I'm very tentative with this ranking; I feel as if he could swing very far in either direction.

6. Larry Bird 1987-88
This is my favorite Larry Bird year. Statistically, he was at his best, the Celtics put up their best offense since he joined the team. Unfortunately, his playoffs were cut short by injuries, but that didn't really factor into my rankings since I was just going for on-court impact. Anyway, he averaged 28.9 PPG for the first two rounds of the playoffs, and his battles with Dominique were excellent. IMO, if Bird had stayed healthy, this would've been the best season of his career.

7. Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
I realize I rank this higher than probably anyone else on this site, but not without good reason. Dirk's impact is probably the hardest of these guys to measure. We saw him early in his career play for some of the best all-time offenses. He's so dangerous, so unique that he just destroys any strategy or scheme the defense can try to throw at him. I see him as one of the best "defense disruptors" on this list. I chose 2011, as I feel like he took a big step forward in terms of scoring this year. He was just way more comfortable and fluid out of the post. He got to the free throw line at a historic rate, and his efficiency is pretty unparalleled. He is one of the best floor spacers ever, and he had the added benefit of being 7'0", meaning he couldn't be guarded by a smaller guy, and he had a knack for getting opposing bigs in foul trouble. Very, very easy to build an all-time offense around peak Dirk. Just slightly below Bird, IMO, because he lacked the ability to be a volume assist guy like Bird was.

8. Tim Duncan 2002-03
Extremely difficult to decide between this year and the prior one for Duncan, I guess I chose this because he advanced stats showed him to be a better offensive player this season. His 2003 playoffs were sensational as well.

9. Magic Johnson 1986-87
Widely (and rightly) recognized as Magic's peak, anchored one of the best offenses all-time. Not a truly transcendent scorer, which prevents him from moving up on the list.

10. Bill Russell 1961-62
Just like with Wilt, I'm very unsure about this ranking. This seemed to be Russell's best offensive season, and he played a bigger role in the team's offense than in subsequent years. Out-dueled Wilt in that legendary Eastern Finals series. Tough to pick a peak year for Russell. I chose this year ever so slightly over Kareem's 1977 for the #10 spot.

[ceiling raiser]

Now waiting for these posters to vote:

ElGee
JulesWinnfield
mopper8
tsherkin
Mutnt
jals
NugzHeat3
Durins Baynes
accrossthecourt
rravenred
Infamous1
Boarder Patrol
OnePostLegend
Notanoob
SummitAllstar
parapooper
Modulate
NH13
Rapcity_11
HeartBreakKid
An Unbiased Fan
MisterHibachi

- Gideon and fpliii - I hope you give your complete top-5 lists in order soon.

I think I will have a list soon, sorry for taking a while. I've been rewatching a lot of MJ tape, as I'd mentioned, to help get a better idea of year-to-year offense/defense splits. Dipper 13's info on midrange/post/finish numbers for Shaq/MJ has been very interesting (probably will downgrade Shaq offensively and upgrade MJ offensively).

Now, I've done a few more players for the survey project, a couple of notes:

• Thurmond is the second GOAT defensive player so far. In terms of one of the metrics I'm playing around with, he's putting up insane numbers. I still have to do some more players though (including Mutombo, Wallace, Mourning defensively, and a handful more offensively) before my list will be suitably fleshed out.

• I think in general, players will not peak defensively and offensively at the same time. I'm gonna try and compare age curves for each side of the ball to see if I can establish the trend.

But anyhow, I think my new ranking will be prepared soon. I've toned down defensive numbers for most players (since I think superstar, MVP, and GOAT defense-only contributions are exceedingly rare, though theoretically possible) so there's a chance that a wing might sneak into my top 5 (with one, maybe two of MJ/LeBron/Bird/Erving/Oscar being the most likely; I don't think Kobe can make it in, and Magic is dropping in my mind recently).

[MisterHibachi]

Off the top of my head, I would go with:

1. 00 Shaq: most dominant ever
2. 91 MJ
3. I'll say Wilt, but I never saw him play. I've seen many posters argue that he has a case for #1, so out of respect for the opinions of those posters, I'll put him here but I reserve the right to drop him out of the top 5 based on that
4. 13 LeBron. Depending on his playoff run, I could move him as high as #2. I don't think any wing is gonna be able to rival Shaq tho
5. 86 Bird
6. 87 Magic (to make up for the Wilt selection)
7. 02/03 Duncan championship probably swings it towards 03

[Gregoire]

But anyhow, I think my new ranking will be prepared soon. I've toned down defensive numbers for most players (since I think superstar, MVP, and GOAT defense-only contributions are exceedingly rare, though theoretically possible)

This is the thing I didnt understand to the moment in your rankings: you value offense more than defense (or think that D impact, which compared to elite offensive is rare), but your top-5 were all centers... Not to mention Jordan and Lebron (Pippen too) IMO had comparable impact on D with elite (not greats, of course) centers.

Maybe now it would be different