Omer Asik Trade - Updated link pg.109

[smith2373]

I have very little doubts the defense would be elite. But just because you have a great defense doesn't mean you'll be an elite team. The Bobcats have the 3rd best defensive rating in the league, but they're terrible offensively. Hence why they remain an under .500 team. You bring up the 08 Celtics but they were a top 10 offense, they had a legitimate go to guy and closer in Pierce, as well as a big time clutch performer like Ray and you had KG. And it was the same for the teams following that year. Even the offenses regressed every year, Pierce & Ray were still legitimate scoring threats.

If someone says the Celtics would be just as good as the Pacers with that lineup, who many believe are the best team in the league, then yes you are implying they would be an elite team. I believe it's completely ridiculous and I'm pretty sure if you went to any other team board and asked them if they thought a team of Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik could be an elite team, you'd get laughed off their board. Would that be a playoff team? Yes. But that's a 2nd round exit at best. Sorry for being realistic and not being a homer.

[15th overall]

Pretty important to remember that we'd still have a ishtload of picks to pull off another trade. People are going a little overboard with their critiques of our current roster plus Asik. I REALLY doubt that would be Danny's finished product...

[pac213up]

There are probably four elite teams in the league. I would have no issue being one stud player away from that with the assets Ainge will still have at his disposal.

[mwhis21]

I have very little doubts the defense would be elite. But just because you have a great defense doesn't mean you'll be an elite team. The Bobcats have the 3rd best defensive rating in the league, but they're terrible offensively. Hence why they remain an under .500 team. You bring up the 08 Celtics but they were a top 10 offense, they had a legitimate go to guy and closer in Pierce, as well as a big time clutch performer like Ray and you had KG. And it was the same for the teams following that year. Even the offenses regressed every year, Pierce & Ray were still legitimate scoring threats.

If someone says the Celtics would be just as good as the Pacers with that lineup, who many believe are the best team in the league, then yes you are implying they would be an elite team. I believe it's completely ridiculous and I'm pretty sure if you went to any other team board and asked them if they thought a team of Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik could be an elite team, you'd get laughed off their board. Would that be a playoff team? Yes. But that's a 2nd round exit at best. Sorry for being realistic and not being a homer.

The term ELITE is subjective and you're using it as a crutch. Your reasoning is funny because the Pacers have an AVERAGE offense right now (Bottom 3rd in the league), but an ELITE defense. It's like you're shooting your own argument in the foot. An elite defense doesn't make you an elite team, but it will keep you competitive in a series against "elite" teams.

Once again, nobody is saying they would "just as good". You are overdramatizing to make your argument look stronger. Not once have I said the Celtics would beat Indiana in a series or any other contending team for that matter. But the Celtics are about to add a Top 5 PG, and potentially a Top 10 center into their current lineup. To say the Celtics can't be competitive with those additions is not realistic it's foolish. That hypothetical Celtics team matches up very well vs. Indiana.

PS- It's been three replies and you've yet to tell me why the Celtics WOULDN'T be competitive against Indiana.

[smith2373]

The Pacers are 13th in offensive rating despite Danny Granger not playing at all this season. They are better on both ends, it's that simple.

What do you mean by competitive? Are you saying if the Celtics could win a few games against the Pacers in a series? Of course they could, I mean the Hawks & Knicks took the Pacers to 6 so of course it's realistic that the hypothetical Celtics team could. But they wouldn't beat them. And that's all that matters. You don't get a trophy for being able to push a team to 6 or 7 games.

[15th overall]

The Pacers are 13th in offensive rating despite Danny Granger not playing at all this season. They are better on both ends, it's that simple.

What do you mean by competitive? Are you saying if the Celtics could win a few games against the Pacers in a series? Of course they could, I mean the Hawks & Knicks took the Pacers to 6 so of course it's realistic that the hypothetical Celtics team could. But they wouldn't beat them. And that's all that matters. You don't get a trophy for being able to push a team to 6 or 7 games.

If you can push a team like Indy to 6 or 7 AND you still have enough assets to add another signifigant piece... then you've done pretty well for yourself. That would be the point here-- putting us in a position to be one piece away from fielding a true contender.

[smith2373]

The Pacers are 13th in offensive rating despite Danny Granger not playing at all this season. They are better on both ends, it's that simple.

What do you mean by competitive? Are you saying if the Celtics could win a few games against the Pacers in a series? Of course they could, I mean the Hawks & Knicks took the Pacers to 6 so of course it's realistic that the hypothetical Celtics team could. But they wouldn't beat them. And that's all that matters. You don't get a trophy for being able to push a team to 6 or 7 games.

If you can push a team like Indy to 6 or 7 AND you still have enough assets to add another signifigant piece... then you've done pretty well for yourself. That would be the point here-- putting us in a position to be one piece away from fielding a true contender.

I agree with that. I don't think the hypothetical team would be the finished product. My initial post was simply responding to someone who said the current Celtics roster plus Asik would be just as good as Indiana, which I heavily disagreed with.

[The Corey's]

I don't know alot about asik, but if people here wouldn't even trade green for him I know enough to know he is t too to put us "within a stud player of being elite"

Frankly, I don't move any of our picks for anyone outside of a player like durrant. Chris Paul, deron Williams and melo. They all got what basically amounts to a hot mess in return in those trades. Danny I trust isn't dumb enough to spend 1, let alone two first to get jus anyone.

Also it's worth noting that from what I have read that asik is a defensive center wih a hole in his offenfisve game. Danny had a center like that and let him walk for way less than what asik is gonna make next year.

[soxfan2003]

If the Celtics could ever trade Rondo straight up for Noah in some sort of 3 way deal in which the Bulls gets picks from some club that wants Rondo and Noah still has something left in the tank for a few years.... and then trade Bass/filler and the worse of Boston's 2015 pick and the Clippers pick for Asik, the Celtics would have enough high quality bigs to be very competitive against Miami's penetration or Indiana's size. Asik may be upset that he is still a backup in this scenario but he would be a backup playing more minutes and he could leave after next year since such a series of trades would give Boston a very short window anyway.

Then they could go shopping for a big upgrade at backup PG which may cost Olynyk who would have much less use in a "win now" scenario. That backup PG could start if Crawford falls apart but the backup PG would have to be a proven shooter since Asik/Noah hurt you in that category.

Then you perhaps trade some/most of picks for the best SG/SF/PF that you can possibly find and such a player puts Bradley/Green or Sullinger in a 6th man role. I'd look for an alternative who isn't heading into FA after this year and is even better but maybe you swap Wallace and picks for Deng as a part of a larger deal with Chicago). Chicago trades off Noah/Deng to hit rock bottom. And pray that the top teams(Indiana/Miami) suffer some injuries and Lebron doesn't get really hot against you from the perimeter.

I flat out think pulling all of that off is very difficult and then having the top 5-6 players that you are really counting on also staying healthy is difficult as well.

What doesn't make sense is trading Bass or someone else plus a pick for Asik and then not going all out to win it all this year. There is no point to target a 45 win team this year since its not like a 45 win team this year is going to convince Lebron to come to the Celtics next year. Players like Green/Rondo/Bass/Asik(if Boston had him)/Noah(if Boston had him) would probably decline at a faster rate the next 2-3 season then Bradley/Sullinger would improve.

[mwhis21]

The Pacers are 13th in offensive rating despite Danny Granger not playing at all this season. They are better on both ends, it's that simple.

What do you mean by competitive? Are you saying if the Celtics could win a few games against the Pacers in a series? Of course they could, I mean the Hawks & Knicks took the Pacers to 6 so of course it's realistic that the hypothetical Celtics team could. But they wouldn't beat them. And that's all that matters. You don't get a trophy for being able to push a team to 6 or 7 games.

Competitive means what it means. Sure, you don't get a trophy for pushing a team to 7 games, but you also don't get a trophy for finishing the regular season with the best record. All that matters is what happens in those playoff series'.

Boston matches up well with Indiana in a series-- both have Top 10 defenses, both have average offenses (Indiana has the edge though), both run about the same pace, have about the same TS%. More importantly, the C's are strong where Indiana is weak. It's why Miami hated playing Boston and it's why Indiana won't want to see us either.

Agree to disagree.

Here's hoping to see them face-off in the playoffs.

[mwhis21]

The Pacers are 13th in offensive rating despite Danny Granger not playing at all this season. They are better on both ends, it's that simple.

What do you mean by competitive? Are you saying if the Celtics could win a few games against the Pacers in a series? Of course they could, I mean the Hawks & Knicks took the Pacers to 6 so of course it's realistic that the hypothetical Celtics team could. But they wouldn't beat them. And that's all that matters. You don't get a trophy for being able to push a team to 6 or 7 games.

If you can push a team like Indy to 6 or 7 AND you still have enough assets to add another signifigant piece... then you've done pretty well for yourself. That would be the point here-- putting us in a position to be one piece away from fielding a true contender.

I agree with that. I don't think the hypothetical team would be the finished product. My initial post was simply responding to someone who said the current Celtics roster plus Asik would be just as good as Indiana, which I heavily disagreed with.

Who said that? I think I missed that and I've been following this thread closely.

[smith2373]

If you can push a team like Indy to 6 or 7 AND you still have enough assets to add another signifigant piece... then you've done pretty well for yourself. That would be the point here-- putting us in a position to be one piece away from fielding a true contender.

I agree with that. I don't think the hypothetical team would be the finished product. My initial post was simply responding to someone who said the current Celtics roster plus Asik would be just as good as Indiana, which I heavily disagreed with.

Who said that? I think I missed that and I've been following this thread closely.

I believe the person who I initially responded to said if the Celtics got elite chemistry like Indiana, then they were talented enough to be just as good as them.

If I misunderstood them, then that's my bad.

[mwhis21]

Ah, cool.

I don't think Rondo/Asik make the Celtics a contender for a championship, but we lose next to nothing to make that happen. Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik.

We still have a ton of assets to make something big happen if the right deal comes along...this rebuild has got off to a great start.

[humblebum]

Ah, cool.

I don't think Rondo/Asik make the Celtics a contender for a championship, but we lose next to nothing to make that happen. Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik.

We still have a ton of assets to make something big happen if the right deal comes along...this rebuild has got off to a great start.

It depends on what the Celtics have to give up but I think that the Celtics could theoretically compete for a title. By that I mean if the Celtics keep Bass and get Asik (plus add a healthy Rondo).

The Celtics would then have the type of defense to hang with both Miami and Indiana. Lose Bass and then you become overly reliant on Trash.

I go back and forth on which direction the Celtics should take but I would love to see them get a legit Center and keep Bass. A playoff rotation of Rondo/Craw, AB/Lee, Green/Trash, Sullinger/Bass, Asik/Olynyk is pretty scary. Lots of versatility, great defenders at every position, and if Rondo/Stevens could mastermind the chemistry... You never know.

[mwhis21]

Ah, cool.

I don't think Rondo/Asik make the Celtics a contender for a championship, but we lose next to nothing to make that happen. Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik.

We still have a ton of assets to make something big happen if the right deal comes along...this rebuild has got off to a great start.

It depends on what the Celtics have to give up but I think that the Celtics could theoretically compete for a title. By that I mean if the Celtics keep Bass and get Asik (plus add a healthy Rondo).

The Celtics would then have the type of defense to hang with both Miami and Indiana. Lose Bass and then you become overly reliant on Trash.

I go back and forth on which direction the Celtics should take but I would love to see them get a legit Center and keep Bass. A playoff rotation of Rondo/Craw, AB/Lee, Green/Trash, Sullinger/Bass, Asik/Olynyk is pretty scary. Lots of versatility, great defenders at every position, and if Rondo/Stevens could mastermind the chemistry... You never know.

Couldn't agree more--Defensively they'd be one of the best if not the best team in the league. Offensively? We'll see how Rondo slides in...Rondo's shooting has improved to respectable especially around the elbows. This year, I want to see him be aggressive getting to the rim and getting on the FT line more. For me, that's the key. Even if he shoots 60-65%, but get there 5-6 times per game.

Make the defense have to account for that.

I don't expect it to happen right off the bat, but I'm excited to see this team 100% healthy. Ownership didn't care about luxury tax when we had PP/KG, but now they care despite the fact we're closer than we were last year to contending. Odd. Wonder how the players feel about that.

[ryaningf]

Offensively? We'll see how Rondo slides in...Rondo's shooting has improved to respectable especially around the elbows. This year, I want to see him be aggressive getting to the rim and getting on the FT line more. For me, that's the key. Even if he shoots 60-65%, but get there 5-6 times per game.

Not going to happen this season coming off injury. I agree its an area he can improve on, but coming off the ACL he's going to be more perimeter oriented. No upside to falling down a bunch.

What will happen is that we'll see Rondo put in more catch-and-shoot situations and take more 3s in general. If an uptick in FTAs occurs, it'll be in 2014-2015.

[Captain_Caveman]

Same dude from International Business Times who had the Rondo rumor yesterday is saying Asik-Deng-Lin happening.

LOL

http://ca.ibtimes.com/articles/530706/2 ... ockets.htm

[ryaningf]

Same dude from International Business Times who had the Rondo rumor yesterday is saying Asik-Deng-Lin happening.

LOL

http://ca.ibtimes.com/articles/530706/2 ... ockets.htm

Page hits, yo, page hits.

[12buckets]

Ah, cool.

I don't think Rondo/Asik make the Celtics a contender for a championship, but we lose next to nothing to make that happen. Rondo/Bradley/Green/Sully/Asik.

We still have a ton of assets to make something big happen if the right deal comes along...this rebuild has got off to a great start.

It depends on what the Celtics have to give up but I think that the Celtics could theoretically compete for a title. By that I mean if the Celtics keep Bass and get Asik (plus add a healthy Rondo).

The Celtics would then have the type of defense to hang with both Miami and Indiana. Lose Bass and then you become overly reliant on Trash.

I go back and forth on which direction the Celtics should take but I would love to see them get a legit Center and keep Bass. A playoff rotation of Rondo/Craw, AB/Lee, Green/Trash, Sullinger/Bass, Asik/Olynyk is pretty scary. Lots of versatility, great defenders at every position, and if Rondo/Stevens could mastermind the chemistry... You never know.

Couldn't agree more--Defensively they'd be one of the best if not the best team in the league. Offensively? We'll see how Rondo slides in...Rondo's shooting has improved to respectable especially around the elbows. This year, I want to see him be aggressive getting to the rim and getting on the FT line more. For me, that's the key. Even if he shoots 60-65%, but get there 5-6 times per game.

Make the defense have to account for that.

I don't expect it to happen right off the bat, but I'm excited to see this team 100% healthy. Ownership didn't care about luxury tax when we had PP/KG, but now they care despite the fact we're closer than we were last year to contending. Odd. Wonder how the players feel about that.

There was a different CBA in place during the KG and Ray acquisitions, with a less punitive luxury tax. now, a team is considered a "repeater" if they were in the luxury tax three times in the previous 4 seasons and have higher luxury tax hits. So now you basically need to be under the tax for 2 years during a rebuild, have three seasons where you pay the old luxury tax once you start being competitive (if you only take one year off from lux tax, you only get two subsequent seasons in normal tax because it still would have been three of the last four), then maybe have two more seasons where the competitiveness is worth the increased tax. but and then teams will have some serious decisions to make between keeping paying even higher than before luxury tax rates the next couple seasons (I think the third tier is 5 bucks for every dollar over...yikes. something nuts like that) or blow up, get back under the cap, and start over.

We're lucky as Celtic Fans because we have owners who would definitely pay that first tier of increased repeater tax in order to compete, and maybe even the second if a title is realistic, but even they have their limits. New York, Brooklyn, and LA are the only teams that can really afford to go any higher than that, while most teams would be scared of even that first increased bill. Right now the ownership and Danny Ainge are desperate to keep the team under the tax for this season and next, so they have the ability to extend the window one more season once the young guys start getting paid/we trade for a superstar. Keep that in mind when adding players. We're barely under the luxury tax now, so we need to send out more money then we take back in (lowering our total payroll), or we'd just be screwing our future.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Same dude from International Business Times who had the Rondo rumor yesterday is saying Asik-Deng-Lin happening.

LOL

http://ca.ibtimes.com/articles/530706/2 ... ockets.htm

What's funny if you actually read it is that the Hawks would be trading Elton Brand and Demare Carroll to Chicago and getting Asik. Bulls send Deng to HOU, get Lin. So the Hawks steal Asik for nothing, and the Bulls give up probably their best player at this point to get Jeremy Lin?