Rookie impressions thread: PRESEASON/REGULAR SEASON

[dautjazz]

I know he had a bad game, but he's only had 2 games in single digits since he's started. What do you want me to use, TS%, PER, USAGE,WIN%? After tonight I'm sure he's up between 16-17 PER, don't know what his TS% is, it's probably pretty low, as far as WIN%, well he's more responsible for the last 6 wins than any other player on the team, as they are 6-8 with him as a starter, 1-13 before that. Usage? Well like some others have said, he's used a lot in Utah. Satisfied, or did I not use the metrics properly?

Wasn't even bringing stats into play. You simply quantify Giannis as "x points, x assists, blah blah blah blah blah" despite the fact that he's shown extremely advanced skills that aren't quantified with a number directly. You constantly criticize his potential and the reasoning is always, again, "x points, x assists, x rebounds". You are completely blinded to what Giannis is doing because of what your favorite rookie is doing and refuse to think otherwise. For the third time, I understand why you are doing what your doing but if you can't see why someone would have a differing opinion you're bordering more on troll then homer. I'm not saying Giannis has shown anything completely groundbreaking to set him apart from the rest, but if you can't see why someone would take him over Burke you are just blinded in your homer glasses.

So I'm a homer because I believe more in results than "potential" that Giannis may hold? Forgive me for judging a player on results over "potential", which can't be measure, it's anybodies guess. Who's to say that Burke doesn't have potential? I'm hearing this ridiculous speculation that Giannis will be a superstar when he hasn't done a thing in 20 games to justify that. Then you got people comparing Burke to DJ Augustin when Burke at this stage has been as good as Agustin ever was. So what, Burke has no potential, he's to stay put where he is? This will be last bit on this, because I'm not allowed to bring up stats in a comparison between two players, not even advanced metrics, so there is zero point to go on since we can only go on potential. I guess we'll just have to revisit this in 5 years, when I may be allowed to bring up actual production into the conversation.

[dabadguy]

Giannis > Burke
the greek freak > burke
the alphabet > burke


tru story. you in de nile like da river.

[Baddy Chuck]

So I'm a homer because I believe more in results than "potential" that Giannis may hold? Forgive me for judging a player on results over "potential", which can't be measure, it's anybodies guess. Who's to say that Burke doesn't have potential? I'm hearing this ridiculous speculation that Giannis will be a superstar when he hasn't done a thing in 20 games to justify that. Then you got people comparing Burke to DJ Augustin when Burke at this stage has been as good as Agustin ever was. So what, Burke has no potential, he's to stay put where he is? This will be last bit on this, because I'm not allowed to bring up stats in a comparison between two players, not even advanced metrics, so there is zero point to go on since we can only go on potential. I guess we'll just have to revisit this in 5 years, when I may be allowed to bring up actual production into the conversation.

Yeah, I would say that makes you a homer. Would you draft Miles Plumlee over Kanter right now? Because if not you're just looking at potential rather then production. Fact is, in a redraft scenario there are ZERO gms who wouldn't look at potential, and a small minority of NBA fans for that matter. The **** guy had Giannis and Burke 3 and 4 on his redraft list and you came at him like he said JFK was shot by aliens. You quantify stats rather then potential and yet completely negate the fact that when Giannis does get playing time, he produces. He doesn't have the huge ups and downs Burke does, but he also isn't given free reign like Burke is either. Burke is being showcased. He's a rookie point guard who's been given the reigns on a team and is having his up and downs. He's had a couple big ups, a couple huge downs and overall quantifying his stats like you love to do, he really isn't that impressive. I said there was nothing to set Giannis apart from anyone, but there is hardly anything that sets Burke apart either. Trey Burke is averaging 13 points and 5 assists on atrocious percentages, compare the per 36 stats, or just look at Giannis' stats when he plays like 25+ minutes and comparing him to Burke hardly creates a huge gap.

[FrieAaron]

That was 10 points on 3 shots by the way. Not really his fault that Knight put on a chucking display in this game that would bring a tear to Gary Neal's eyes.

[BieberLUV]

tru story. you in de nile like da river.

[Spottieottie]

Guys, Giannis is a freak -- its all potential right now but promoted by solid production. I am very glad to see Burke have good games. This isn't a competition worth fighting over. This is the two worst teams in the league battling for the only kudos they can grab. MCW should be ROY as of now, but Giannis is maybe like #8 on the list, maybe because he's not "being showcased" but also because he's a potential player. But there's nothing wrong with that, right? Potential is just scary because you get amped on players before their ready. Like Kanter. Kanter is developing and doing his thing, yes slower than we wanted but not overwhelmingly disappointing, but it's seen as disappointment because we all got drunk on potential. If Giannis is the guy, the man, I'll be stoked. But I'll also be stoked because Burke (true, against Orlando) is making it obvi that he's got game. I wish MCW would play more

[Baddy Chuck]

The funny thing is, not a soul is arguing for Giannis for ROY, rather he'd be fairly high in a redraft. That is the argument the Jazz fan is having with people. Hell, I have absolutely ZERO problem saying Burke is much high in the ROY race (along with Oladipo and MCW and a couple others) but to say he's much better in terms of a redraft is ridiculous.

[Greek]

The thing is that Burke has very ordinary physical profile, he doesnt have any physical trait at an elite level. Yes he is ahead of Giannis right now, nobody is denying that, and he is far ahead of him on the ROY run. But the question is how much better can he be? Whats his roof?

From the other side, Giannis is very unique player. I cant think any player from the recent memory who is 6'10, having that package of skills, very raw from skill and especially on his body, yet being productive as the youngest player of the league... He has the potential to be great 2 way player, something that you cant say for Burke. He will always lucking at D given his size/athleticism.

Yes i am little homer, but i cant see how someone would pick Burke ahead of him knowing what we know now for both.

[Goon]

If dautjazz was a GM, judging by his recent comments, that team would ride the treadmill for eternity.

[dorkestra]

In a re-draft, I probably take Giannis number one. This is coming from a Sixers fan who is thrilled with MCW.

[dorkestra]

Regarding Burke, Lillard also has a rather ordinary physical profile leading many to say that his amazing rookie year might be almost as good as he can be. I think he's proven so far this year that this was a flawed way of thinking.

[MountainDrew]

I can't deny that Giannis is a special talent. His combination of size, athleticism and quite well developed skill-set for his age is special. I just chose the significant advantage of production at this point in MCW and Oladipo (They both have a good bit of potential too) over the huge potential that Giannis has, because there's no guarantee that he will become who some guys think he will be. There has been a lot of homerism going on (also from my side on MCW) but that's natural because we're sports fans. It is perfectly justifiable if people value Giannis over the other 2. As for Burke, his production hasn't been that amazing, I think the fact that the Jazz win more with him than without him is more because of the people that the jazz had running point before him. Burke doesn't have the potential to become a top 10 point guard and even though he's producing a bit better than Giannis at this point, potential has to be factored in at least somewhat, I still stick to my redraft but any order of the top3 is perfectly justifiable.

[dautjazz]

I can't deny that Giannis is a special talent. His combination of size, athleticism and quite well developed skill-set for his age is special. I just chose the significant advantage of production at this point in MCW and Oladipo (They both have a good bit of potential too) over the huge potential that Giannis has, because there's no guarantee that he will become who some guys think he will be. There has been a lot of homerism going on (also from my side on MCW) but that's natural because we're sports fans. It is perfectly justifiable if people value Giannis over the other 2. As for Burke, his production hasn't been that amazing, I think the fact that the Jazz win more with him than without him is more because of the people that the jazz had running point before him. Burke doesn't have the potential to become a top 10 point guard and even though he's producing a bit better than Giannis at this point, potential has to be factored in at least somewhat, I still stick to my redraft but any order of the top3 is perfectly justifiable.

That bothers me a bit. People are placing a low ceiling on Burke through 20 games when he gets better by the day. His PER36 numbers now sit at 16.3ppg 4.3rpg 6.2apg .8spg .1bpg 1.7to, shooting .396 .358 .903. His FG% is low, other than that, it's been pretty impressive for 16 first NBA games. He's basically putting up 4 assists to 1 turnover! As a rookie he makes very few mistakes. His shooting has been very off or good, but it's small sample size. Burke has good shooting form, he is a good perimeter shooter, already elite from the line, and already has a little arsenal of moves at the basket including a floater. His 16.3 PER is quite respectable, especially considering his struggles from the field with 12.9 FGA. I guess I'll just let his game do the talking from here on out.

[dautjazz]

If dautjazz was a GM, judging by his recent comments, that team would ride the treadmill for eternity.

You really need to take a personal shot at someone because they believe a player should be drafted higher than another? I'm providing an argument, not ranting like a homer or making illogical rants.

[24istheLAW]

So is there a non-Jazz fan who would take Trey Burke over Giannis?

If you exist make yourself known.

[Upper Decker]

Hate to interupt the Giannis / Burke jerk-fest, but I wanted to drop an update regarding Otto Porter, who was a consideration for the #1 overall pick...

PPG 0.8, RPG 2.0, APG 0.2 PER -1.1

This guys bust potential is overflowing. As an avid Washington fan it's pretty clear, up to this point, he does not belong in the NBA.

[giraldo5]

So is there a non-Jazz fan who would take Trey Burke over Giannis?

If you exist make yourself known.

Might be waiting a long time. I like Burke and would take him 5th in a redraft. I take Nerlens over him as well as the obvious 3

[skones]

Regarding Burke, Lillard also has a rather ordinary physical profile leading many to say that his amazing rookie year might be almost as good as he can be. I think he's proven so far this year that this was a flawed way of thinking.

Sure Lillard doesn't have the explosiveness that "elite" guys in the league have, but calling his physical profile "ordinary" could not be further from the truth. It was one of the reasons he went as high as he did. His measurements took him from the tail end of the lottery up into the middle.

Player A: 6'3 in shoes, 189 lbs, 6'8 wingspan, 8 foot standing reach, 34.5" no step vert, 39.5" max vert, 13 Bench Press, 11.15 Lane Agility, 3.34 3/4 court sprint
Player B: 6'3 in shoes, 196 lbs, 6'8 wingspan, 8'3 standing reach, 34.5" no step vert, 40" max vert, 10 Bench Press, 11.69 Lane Agility, 3.05 3/4 sprint


Player B is Derrick Rose. Player A is Damian Lillard.

Trey Burke, from an athletic standpoint, is just decidedly average.

[Goon]

If dautjazz was a GM, judging by his recent comments, that team would ride the treadmill for eternity.

You really need to take a personal shot at someone because they believe a player should be drafted higher than another? I'm providing an argument, not ranting like a homer or making illogical rants.

Not meant to be a personal shot. If you saw it that way, I apologize.

I just wrote that since you downplayed potential a bit too much and kept posting current stats, making it look like only current production matters, and all that after only 20+ games into the season. Potential is one of the most important things when it comes to rookies.

[dautjazz]

If dautjazz was a GM, judging by his recent comments, that team would ride the treadmill for eternity.

You really need to take a personal shot at someone because they believe a player should be drafted higher than another? I'm providing an argument, not ranting like a homer or making illogical rants.

Not meant to be a personal shot. If you saw it that way, I apologize.

I just wrote that since you downplayed potential a bit too much and kept posting current stats, making it look like only current production matters, and all that after only 20+ games into the season. Potential is one of the most important things when it comes to rookies.

It's just that I see it every year, players like Harold Minor get compared to MJ, Darius Miles to KG, Deshawn Stevenson to MJ, and it goes on and on, how often are these expectations met? I remember having conversations in middle school early Tim Thomas and Kobe's career, and kid liked Thomas more based on potential. Sometimes I think actual production is under valued. I looked at some Giannis videos, he looks a raw and kind of awkward at times. I just think that someone that is supposed to be as good as people are raving about would have atleast put up a big game in 20 games, but he hasn't. Oladipo, Burke, and MCW have had several big games. I saw potential in Garnett, Kobe, Pierce, Lebron, Durant, and many others, but they were far more productive early in their careers than Giannis. So I measure potential a bit differently I guess, I'll compare how a player is producing at a particular compared to others at that age, and then there is the eye test. I really haven't watched Bucks games yet, but hey, aside of Bucks fans, I doubt anybody here has seen a handful of those.