Has Brandon Jennings finally turned the corner?

[Blkbrd671]

I think the problem many pistons fans are having is due to the hyperbole being thrown around in this thread. I would really like it if someone would qualify how he's a career backup and below average point. I doubt you can even name 15 point guards better than Jennings which makes him an above average starter.


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exactly

[Q00]

So you are expecting a dramatic improvement in the East next year and beyond, based on what?

Recent history, roster construction, health, etc. Unless you expect the EC to have only 3 teams at or above .500 again next year?

Bad teams don't magically become good just because the calender changes. So what makes you think these teams are suddenly going to be better this time next year?

[Timmaytime]

Spoken like someone who hasn't watched a lot of Jennings this year, obviously.

This is never a quality response, since you don't know what you're talking about.

Jennings doesn't look a lot different than last year. Shooting about the same rate and percentage, still taking way more threes than is intelligent, still sucks ass under the arc, presently having the worst season of his career in terms of turnover rate (not just raw volume), has been both brutally inefficient as a scorer (a prevailing issue in his career) and below average on a per-possession basis offensively. Still completely useless anywhere except on 18-footers and open 3s... and on and on and on.

Very low effort/IQ on D.

What corner has he turned? Playing more minutes and getting a few more assists at the cost of more turnovers?

He's been worse than usual, not better.

Assist/Turnover rate is middle of the pack, ranking 17th among starters

Defensively giving up a PER of 14.1, compared to his own of 15.6, solid if unspectacular

Adjusted Fg% of 45.4%, similar to:
Wall 45.3%
Westbrook 45.0%
Irving 45.5%
Walker 45.7%

Shooting 5 threes a game, at the rate of 37%, 77th out of 144 qualified, middle of the pack. and much better than the 31.5% the Pistons shoot as a team.

Tell me how that's bad? Jennings is a miraculously average guard. With good games and bad games, he's not the trainwreck that you think he is

[tsherkin]

So we have to beat the heat or pacers in order to be successful, again your making up your own definitions of success.

No, that's you exaggerating because you don't like the premise that beating a sub-.500 team doesn't really mean much. The Heat and Pacers are the teams everyone expects to duke it out for the EC Finals berth, so no, I wouldn't expect the Pistons to have to beat them.

I merely pointing out your making a lot of if statements as "definitive" , when anything really is possible in a young season, and the point was to point out that as of right now, which is tangible, Jennings is leading this team to success.

That's one perspective, sure.

Understood I was just pointing out how it always seems as if there's a nother reason or excuse why success is not a product of Jennings but rather something else

That's your perspective, sure. From my angle, I'm looking at what goes into them producing offense at the level they do (incidentally, about +0.6 over league average at the moment) and it's their offensive rebounding more than anywhere else, since they're terrible from downtown (Jennings definitely helps that), below average at drawing fouls (he sucks at that for a significant offensive option), and so forth. Of course, Monroe, Smith and Drummond don't help the team with their abysmal FT shooting (53.8% on 316 FTA, blech!) and that's not Jennings' fault.

Anyway, those are just the numbers. I watch them and I don't see particularly fluid offense. I see Jennings be Jennings and make some clever plays, shoot some bricks, initiate things because they can't rely upon Stuckey to do more than he does now and because they don't have much depth, their spacing blows, Monroe isn't a PF, etc, etc. I actually feel bad for Monroe because he's pretty good on O at the 5 but he just doesn't do well at the 4. KCP has promise, but he's too young and callow to lean on now.

Your completely missing the point, and making another excuse.

No, you made an errant statement that ignored context and was factually incorrect; that's not an excuse, that's me pointing out what you said was wrong and then delving into that topic. Calderon is a specialty roleplayer and if you don't put things together in such a way that the player can use his specialty, he won't bring results. Surprise, surprise, crappy spacing and bigs that don't have Js aren't really great for facilitation of strong team offense through the PnR.

Fact is that Jennings is winning with essentially the same pieces as Jose calderon. I make that statement because you are indirectly saying that with our cast of players any average pg(which your calling Jennings) could win with this team. Calderon couldn't.

Actually, I think the addition-by-subtraction of Knight and the ~ 13 extra minutes for Drummond are making a huge difference. Drummond played 14 games in and after February last year, at around 21 mpg. He's playing almost 34 this year and not missing games like he was when Calderon was on the team.

Again, context does matter.

What is this superior option your referring too, you make it seem as if Jennings is some average pg that can be picked up from the street, so tell me who's these superior options. Jennings isn't a great pg in comparison to chris paul or westbrook, who knew?

Or, and here's a thought, don't build around PGs because it's a giant pain in the butt and they usually aren't worth the effort? I think seeking a different model would be more sensible, particularly since you're vesting a large proportion of your offensive possessions into the hands of a guy who is notoriously inefficient with the shooting possessions he commands. That's not good practice.

In the past few years I have rarely seen Jennings pass up open shots to try to pass more, or stop from taking transition three's to hit the trailer.

Well, he has options to pass to and isn't playing alongside Monta Ellis, so there's that.

How is he not a scoring threat? When you make statements like these, its clear your not actually watching Jennings but rather commenting on highlights or prior season play.

Comment on the post, don't visit what I do and do not do, since you are ignorant of those things.

Jennings sucks at scoring. That he CAN hit a jump shot is not the same thing as being an effective scoring presence.

Also my problem with your statement is that you refuse to recognize any value in being a playmaker or floor manager like its common when fact is , it isn't.

No, that's your stubborn unwillingness to read everything I'm writing, as I have directly contravened that statement on numerous occasions.

Your making statements as if you've watched every game of Jennings this season but by other statements clearly indicate that you haven't. There's nothing wrong with inquiring with the poster as to where exactly he's deriving his opinions from,

You're making declarative statements about my basketball-watching habits. You don't know me, you don't know what I watch and don't watch. Stop making foolish comments on topics about which you are ignorant. Address the content of the post and keep your assumptions about me the poster to yourself.

but he does have the skill set, which is my point

I don't agree with that, no. I think he is far too deficient in skill and physicality to be a particularly good scoring threat and that has born out to date in his career. He is entirely reliant upon the 3pt shot to enable his offense and he isn't elite there. Said reliance also leaves him remarkably inconsistent and streaky, the more so for his lack of elite shooting ability. He's a solid 3pt shooter, for sure, particularly given that he does it on-ball so often, but not elite and that's troublesome at that volume, especially since he does nothing else particularly well as a scorer (in terms of finishing a bucket, obviously he can create separation for a jumper very well).

[tsherkin]

Bad teams don't magically become good just because the calender changes. So what makes you think these teams are suddenly going to be better this time next year?

I already answered that.

Adjusted Fg% of 45.4%, similar to:
Wall 45.3%
Westbrook 45.0%
Irving 45.5%
Walker 45.7%

All of whom are either weak scoring threats or having bad seasons, especially due to injury.

Tell me how that's bad? Jennings is a miraculously average guard. With good games and bad games, he's not the trainwreck that you think he is

I think you're missing the point. I think he's a bad focal offensive player. He's got utility, but not in the role he is filling. He's a bad scorer; he is a career 49.8% TS player, which is abysmal, and he's posting exactly that so far this season. His turnover rate is ugly, although atypical for him. His 104 ORTG is below league average, despite his passing. He shoots way too much.

More particularly, league-average in an offensive role that prominent is bad, not average. The goal is to produce high-quality offense, not produce average offense on a large proportion of offense and then dealing with the regular fall-off from starter to bench player production. That's a problem if you're trying to use that as a foundation to build a team.

[Timmaytime]

I think you're missing the point. I think he's a bad focal offensive player.

I think YOU'RE missing the point, he's not supposed to be the focal offensive player, but he's one of very few players on the Pistons that can create their own shot, he creates for others, he shoots the three as well as anyone on the team, and he gives the Pistons offensive firepower that they desperately need.

The most important thing, when the ball is in his hands, it means that it's not in Josh Smith's hands.

[Moose10Fan]

His usage rate is the 2nd lowest of his career at 24% and his assist rate 35%, compared to last season, his lowest usage rate and he only had a 29% assist rate. Major improvement.

Even though I hate talking advanced metrics on message boards.

[LakerLegend]

Baiting

[tsherkin]

I think YOU'RE missing the point, he's not supposed to be the focal offensive player, but he's one of very few players on the Pistons that can create their own shot, he creates for others, he shoots the three as well as anyone on the team, and he gives the Pistons offensive firepower that they desperately need.

I'm not missing the point, I'm directly saying that he's not good playing the role in which he is currently. If he was able and willing to shoot less, then he'd be minimizing the negative impact he has on offense from his inefficient scoring attempts. Obviously, he'd need players around him in order to do that. It isn't relevant to the current situation though, because he isn't playing a diminished role.

He is being used in that role and thus he is being evaluated in that role, that's fairly straightforward. The Pistons are banking on him to drive their offense and it was a mistake because he isn't a dominant offensive player and never will be. He's solid, but he needs to have his shooting volume curtailed because he blows at scoring.

His usage rate is the 2nd lowest of his career at 24% and his assist rate 35%, compared to last season, his lowest usage rate and he only had a 29% assist rate. Major improvement.

Right but as AST% rises, USG rate lowers (it doesn't consider ASTs as reflective of usage) and his TOV% is at a career-high as well.

[NothingButLuck]

One good game and he's turning the corner? Does it only take this much for a poster to make a... oh wait, this is realgm.

that's actual season stats, as oppose to 1 game and its more than that. Jennings is turning into exactly the pg Detroit needs. Sarcasm is only funny if you know what your talking about

That's season stats line is horrible. LOL.

The only reason this topic was made because of that 28/14 game he had yesterday. Didn't know Detroit needed a chucking PG who plays terrible defense. Before correcting someone, learn to distinguish what's a good statline and a bad statline first.

[Blkbrd671]

Baiting/Derailing

[Blkbrd671]

That's season stats line is horrible. LOL.

The only reason this topic was made because of that 28/14 game he had yesterday.

Really cuz i'm pretty sure the op brings up his play over the whole season, therefore its based on more than 1 game.

Didn't know Detroit needed a chucking PG who plays terrible defense. Before correcting someone, learn to distinguish what's a good statline and a bad statline first.

Really that's a bad statline? please describe how so?

[Timmaytime]

One good game and he's turning the corner? Does it only take this much for a poster to make a... oh wait, this is realgm.

that's actual season stats, as oppose to 1 game and its more than that. Jennings is turning into exactly the pg Detroit needs. Sarcasm is only funny if you know what your talking about

That's season stats line is horrible. LOL.

The only reason this topic was made because of that 28/14 game he had yesterday. Didn't know Detroit needed a chucking PG who plays terrible defense. Before correcting someone, learn to distinguish what's a good statline and a bad statline first.

average defense*

And i'd say 17.5/8 is solid even at 40% shooting, especially since he turns the ball over less than Steph, Wall and Westbrook?

[NothingButLuck]

That's season stats line is horrible. LOL.

The only reason this topic was made because of that 28/14 game he had yesterday.

Really cuz i'm pretty sure the op brings up his play over the whole season, therefore its based on more than 1 game.

Didn't know Detroit needed a chucking PG who plays terrible defense. Before correcting someone, learn to distinguish what's a good statline and a bad statline first.

Really that's a bad statline? please describe how so?

I already explain it in previous post, you can dig it up.

average defense*

And i'd say 17.5/8 is solid even at 40% shooting, especially since he turns the ball over less than Steph, Wall and Westbrook?

His D is terrible. I watch a couple of Pistons games just for Drummond, so no, it's not based only on advanced stats (which he doesn't fare well neither).

Westbrook, like someone said, has struggled. But he has the injury excuses and his inefficiency hasn't been this bad since his rookie year. He still drew fouls though. Wall, he was never that great shooting the ball, but he has much better court vision and D. Steph? Seriously?

[Timmaytime]

His D is terrible. I watch a couple of Pistons games just for Drummond, so no, it's not based only on advanced stats (which he doesn't fare well neither).

Westbrook, like someone said, has struggled. But he has the injury excuses and his inefficiency hasn't been this bad since his rookie year. He still drew fouls though. Wall, he was never that great shooting the ball, but he has much better court vision and D. Steph? Seriously?

His D is good enough, and his advanced defensive metrics have been solid.

I only brought up turnovers, which he has turned the ball over less than these guards who you call better (not saying they aren't better than Jennings) while also having just as much offensive pressure if not more.

Jennings is an average point guard. And we expect nothing more.

And by the way, Jennings might as well be Magic compared to Brandon Knight at point guard...

[Buck You]

He is still shooting under 40% from the field on the season, turning the ball over and sucking a lot.

He hasn't turned anything...

This. He'll have games where he's making terrible jump shots but he's still useless and a career backup.

Career backup? Now that is irrational.

Talent wise he will be. Of course he'll start on some bad teams but that doesn't mean anything.

[ComboGuardCity]

Talent wise he will be. Of course he'll start on some bad teams but that doesn't mean anything.

Please name the 15 PGs better than Brandon Jennings. You can't be a career backup if you're above average at your position.

[tsherkin]

And by the way, Jennings might as well be Magic compared to Brandon Knight at point guard...

This is certainly true, and more than any other reason, indicative of his impact on the offense. Not being Knight is more relevant than his level of quality in other aspects of the game. It's all about stepping up from totally absent utility. Obviously, Jennings isn't a total scrub, we've seen such players before. He replaced one, as it happens, and addition by subtraction is not insignificant.

[Malapropism]

Talent wise he will be. Of course he'll start on some bad teams but that doesn't mean anything.

Please name the 15 PGs better than Brandon Jennings. You can't be a career backup if you're above average at your position.

Paul
Curry
Rose
Westbrook
Parker
Wall
Lillard
Lawson
Bledsoe
Dragic
Irving
Conley
Holiday
D. Will
Thomas

Then there's the arguable ones like Teague, Lowry, Walker, MCW, Rubio...

[Timmaytime]

Career backup? Now that is irrational.

Talent wise he will be. Of course he'll start on some bad teams but that doesn't mean anything.

He's been a starter his entire career and he's done just fine,

What backup point guard would you rather have than Jennings??

Maybe Jarrett Jack or Reggie Jackson on a good day? I can't think of a single backup that I would rather have than Jennings and only maybe 12-15 starters at most.