Infighting at player meeting: Dion Waiters now being shopped

[TheOUTLAW]

Nobody wants Gay because of his cost

Nobody is efficient in the Cavs system. NOBODY and I'd doubt that new people would be efficient either.

[Niko23]

In Mike Brown's offense - we need scoring and that is what Waiters gives. And Waiters rookie year was better than any of Evan Turner's first 2....arguably 3 years. Waiters has the ability to take over games or portions of games. MKG/Barnes having more value is laughable.

And that is why Turner was basically considered a bust until this year.

Rudy Gay has the ability to take over games also but yet nobody wants him on their team still.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/197kkbr ... iginal.png

If scoring is what you needed out of him and he does it this inefficiently that's usually a sign that you need a new system or a new player.

Rudy Gay has been in the league a long time.....Waiters not so much

Rookie FG%

Westbrook: 39
Harden: 40
Wade: 46
Parker: 41
Manu: 43
CP3: 43

But you probably labeled all of those guys inefficient scorers with no room to improve

[Mr Sixer]

In Mike Brown's offense - we need scoring and that is what Waiters gives. And Waiters rookie year was better than any of Evan Turner's first 2....arguably 3 years. Waiters has the ability to take over games or portions of games. MKG/Barnes having more value is laughable.

And that is why Turner was basically considered a bust until this year.

Rudy Gay has the ability to take over games also but yet nobody wants him on their team still.

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/197kkbr ... iginal.png

If scoring is what you needed out of him and he does it this inefficiently that's usually a sign that you need a new system or a new player.

Rudy Gay has been in the league a long time.....Waiters not so much

Rookie FG%

Westbrook: 39
Harden: 40
Wade: 46
Parker: 41
Manu: 43
CP3: 43

But you probably labeled all of those guys inefficient scorers with no room to improve

No but all of those guys either offered more to their team in playmaking or defense than Waiters does or were elite prospects because of their athleticism (in particular Wade and Westbrook).

Not only that, but obviously there are exceptions to these cases, you just listed some of the best players of the last decade. If you wanted me to list the players who had poor rookie FG% and didn't make a good career afterwards the list would be endless.

And you mentioned FG%, which is much less useful than TS% which is what I listed. If you take a look at Harden, Parker and Manu their TS%s were .551 .556 and .497 respectively their rookie year compared to Dion's .492 his rookie year and .486 so far this year.

What is even more worrisome is that Waiters is regressing in shooting efficiency this year rather than improving as is expected of him and although it is still early in the season it is definitely still a cause for concern

[Niko23]

Good old TS%....where the top 10 include names like Ryan Hollins, Kyle Korver, Chris Wilcox, and Greg Smith.

[BossHoggin]

Why is Turner suddenly good after ten games despite three bad seasons?

Why is Waiters a bust and unable to improve in the beginning of his second season?

Because it fits an agenda? Desperate to pawn off Turner it seems. If he's so good why do many cavs-76ers proposals, posted by 76er posters, keep showing up?

[TheOUTLAW]

Waiters is getting killed because of his free throw shooting which is baffling to me so far this season.

[Mr Sixer]

Why is Turner suddenly good after ten games despite three bad seasons?

Why is Waiters a bust and unable to improve in the beginning of his second season?

Because it fits an agenda? Desperate to pawn off Turner it seems. If he's so good why do many cavs-76ers proposals, posted by 76er posters, keep showing up?

I don't see why you need to get so defensive about it. I didn't post a single proposal, I was simply reading the thread because of the rumors that have come out recently and commented that the statistic he stated earlier was pretty irrelevant to anything, especially comparing 20+ ppg games as a rookie between players as different as Waiters and Davis.

I also never said Waiters is a bust and unable to improve, I merely stated that the ppg he has been producing is not very impressive considering the efficiency he has been doing it at, which I don't really think is arguable.

Personally, I think the fanbase with the agenda is the one who has guys discrediting the validity of TS% as a measure of efficiency in scoring after citing FG% instead.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but is it that ridiculous for 76ers coming to your board to discuss a Dion Waiters, Evan Turner trade after there has been an article in the wiretap discussing the possibility of the trade? (whether these rumors are truthful or not?)

[Niko23]

You are using TS% as an absolute stat and not paying attention to anything else. As I mentioned, TS% has the likes of Hollins, Korver, Birdman, Greg Smith in its top 10. You may be fine with those types of players but I certainly am not.

You also seem very definitive on a player who has yet to play 82 games a professional, who is now playing under a new coach, and has 8 new teammates.

[AJ Valliant]

Good old TS%....where the top 10 include names like Ryan Hollins, Kyle Korver, Chris Wilcox, and Greg Smith.

You need to take usage into account as well. No metric is made to be used in isolation, simply applying it out of context to support some emotional argument makes you look either uninformed or uncharitable. I don't know you well enough to say which.

[Niko23]

Good old TS%....where the top 10 include names like Ryan Hollins, Kyle Korver, Chris Wilcox, and Greg Smith.

You need to take usage into account as well. No metric is made to be used in isolation, simply applying it out of context to support some emotional argument makes you look either uninformed or uncharitable. I don't know you well enough to say which.

Oh thank you so much for informing me. Now I am educated to know the following (using stat nerd metric TS% and USG)

Jeremy Lin > Paul George
Jose Calderon > Chris Paul
Mario Chalmers > Tony Parker
Nik Vucevic > Kevin Love

I have no clue how the NBA ever existed without these critically important stats.

Speaking of context did you bother reading the previous posts to this discussion before "informing" me with your wisdom?

[Mr Sixer]

You are using TS% as an absolute stat and not paying attention to anything else. As I mentioned, TS% has the likes of Hollins, Korver, Birdman, Greg Smith in its top 10. You may be fine with those types of players but I certainly am not.

You also seem very definitive on a player who has yet to play 82 games a professional, who is now playing under a new coach, and has 8 new teammates.

I don't see how I'm using as an absolute stat. I am not saying x player is better than y because of their ts%. I am merely saying that the ts% he has been producing points towards inefficient scoring. Ts% is clearly a better measure of scoring efficiency than fg% which is what you posted so I don't even see what we're discussing here

[TheOUTLAW]

I wonder what Shaq and Moses TS% were?

[B Mac]

I posted it in the trade thread but I wanted to post this in here too, just to make sure everyone looking for info on the topic actually got to read it.

Everything Ive heard from the few guys I know with connections to the team have told me that the players only meeting was actually a good thing. They hashed things out, fought like brothers, and came out of it motivated and on the same page.

Then a couple weeks later Broussard came in and took some pieces of truth and created a huge ordeal over a story that had been over and handled for quite some time before that. I think that fans forget sometimes that these players are literally like family. They are with each other 7 days a week for hours on end. Family loves each other and hates each other several times a day. At the end of the day, even though fights are going to happen, they're still family.

Im getting pretty sick of this being a big story when it was over and done with long before any of it was ever even reported.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Waiters 20 pts on 8-10 shooting tonight. Don't care if you use ts% fg% or whatever. That's a pretty efficient night I assume...

[BossHoggin]

Im getting pretty sick of this being a big story when it was over and done with long before any of it was ever even reported.

.

[Niko23]

You are using TS% as an absolute stat and not paying attention to anything else. As I mentioned, TS% has the likes of Hollins, Korver, Birdman, Greg Smith in its top 10. You may be fine with those types of players but I certainly am not.

You also seem very definitive on a player who has yet to play 82 games a professional, who is now playing under a new coach, and has 8 new teammates.

I don't see how I'm using as an absolute stat. I am not saying x player is better than y because of their ts%. I am merely saying that the ts% he has been producing points towards inefficient scoring. Ts% is clearly a better measure of scoring efficiency than fg% which is what you posted so I don't even see what we're discussing here

So lets recap:

Me: Wow Dion can score points
You: Posting a link citing TS% - PPG does not matter
Me: He is a rookie and look at other smaller combo guards FG% in their 1st year
You: Post TS% of three players I mentioned - who were close to Dion - FG% does not matter.
Me: You are using TS% as an absolute
You: No I'm not

You seem overly concerned regarding scoring efficiency. You can have Wes Matthews, Jeremy Lin, and Jose Calderon. I will take Paul George, Chris Paul, and Brad Beal

[Mr Sixer]

You are using TS% as an absolute stat and not paying attention to anything else. As I mentioned, TS% has the likes of Hollins, Korver, Birdman, Greg Smith in its top 10. You may be fine with those types of players but I certainly am not.

You also seem very definitive on a player who has yet to play 82 games a professional, who is now playing under a new coach, and has 8 new teammates.

I don't see how I'm using as an absolute stat. I am not saying x player is better than y because of their ts%. I am merely saying that the ts% he has been producing points towards inefficient scoring. Ts% is clearly a better measure of scoring efficiency than fg% which is what you posted so I don't even see what we're discussing here

So lets recap:

Me: Wow Dion can score points
You: Posting a link citing TS% - PPG does not matter
Me: He is a rookie and look at other smaller combo guards FG% in their 1st year
You: Post TS% of three players I mentioned - who were close to Dion - FG% does not matter.
Me: You are using TS% as an absolute
You: No I'm not

You seem overly concerned regarding scoring efficiency. You can have Wes Matthews, Jeremy Lin, and Jose Calderon. I will take Paul George, Chris Paul, and Brad Beal

More like you can take

Westbrook
Kobe
Gay
Melo
Cousins

and I'll take

Curry
Harden
Durant
Davis
Lopez

and when you look at that list and say to yourself "hmm. I think my team would win" that should prove to you how delusional you are

[mcfly1204]

You should have just let it go instead of bring this back to the forefront nearly three weeks later.

[B Mac]

This thread has run it's course, was full of rumors that were nowhere near true, and is nothing more than an opportunity for fighting/trolling.

If something else comes up concerning this situation then we can reopen it, but since the whole thing was blown up to be a bigger deal than it actually was I doubt that is going to happen.