TWO: Tank World Order

[Shimso]

Miami and Celtics say hello.

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

The Pacers are the exception to the rule. And would the Pacers have Hibbert if a certain GM didn't value short-term gains over draft picks?

Tanking/drafting a Superstar isn't a guarantee but its one of the best chances to get high-end talent. No one supporting tanking is claiming its a 100% guaranteed successful way to win a title in 5 years, but rather that having a good draft pick will give you a chance that you can build a team around that player/trade that player for other assets; the alternatives are to trade (where you are therefore going to have to lose assets in other to get someone back) or to wait for FA (where the Raptors have been hilariously bad at).

[Kabatnaz]

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

The Pacers are the exception to the rule. And would the Pacers have Hibbert if a certain GM didn't value short-term gains over draft picks?

Tanking/drafting a Superstar isn't a guarantee but its one of the best chances to get high-end talent. No one supporting tanking is claiming its a 100% guaranteed successful way to win a title in 5 years, but rather that having a good draft pick will give you a chance that you can build a team around that player/trade that player for other assets; the alternatives are to trade (where you are therefore going to have to lose assets in other to get someone back) or to wait for FA (where the Raptors have been hilariously bad at).

The only alternative is being know as a franchise that competes and wants to win basketball games.

You play to win the game.

[Wo1verine]

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

And as I said before, it's NOT a guarantee. It's not supposed to be. The "gaurantee" argument is just an obvious strawman. What it does is give you a chance.

About once a decade or so a team gets lucky/good with some of their draft picks and becomes a good team without a top pick. Is that really the strategy you're suggesting? Hope we get lucky and have picks 10th picks and beyind become top players in the league? Using that strategy we could wait until the year 2100 and never have a contender.,

The strategy I am suggesting is to go out and win basketball games. That should be every teams strategy.

What's the point of drafting superstars if the supporting cast doesn't know how to win?

The strategy should be to win NBA championships and you do that by getting superstars on your team man.
What we're watching now is a team full of players that likely wont be around say for a couple if we ever take the next step because they aren't even close to being good enough.

2 steps back to take 5 steps forward potentially.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Miami and Celtics say hello.

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

And how far did CLE go?
And how far did Minny go?
And how far did ORL go with Howard?
Did the Raptors do better than any of them without one????
*Bosh is not a superstar imo sorry...

These we're CONSISTENTLY in the Playoffs and had FAR better success than this team has ever had. They also did that almost SOLELY on the backs of their superstar player (nevermind they put together sh*t rosters around them) which only strengthens the tank's point and not yours. The fact we have to be damn near the cap and have to rely on a PLAGUE of injuries only to entertain a level BELOW what those teams did just shows how far off you are.

Also I hate when posters like you reference the Pacers or previously the Pistons like they are the typical situation when in reality they are the EXCEPTIONS (nevermind George, their FRANCHISE and best player was 10th which is far ahead of where we will draft)...do you know what an exception is??

It means it USUALLY doesn't happen, so we are greatly stacking the odds AGAINST ourselves if we're HOPING to pan out like the Pacers. At this point I will only have to pray that we're so lucky but there's just not much logic in your argument as I see it.

[Kabatnaz]

And as I said before, it's NOT a guarantee. It's not supposed to be. The "gaurantee" argument is just an obvious strawman. What it does is give you a chance.

About once a decade or so a team gets lucky/good with some of their draft picks and becomes a good team without a top pick. Is that really the strategy you're suggesting? Hope we get lucky and have picks 10th picks and beyind become top players in the league? Using that strategy we could wait until the year 2100 and never have a contender.,

The strategy I am suggesting is to go out and win basketball games. That should be every teams strategy.

What's the point of drafting superstars if the supporting cast doesn't know how to win?

The strategy should be to win NBA championships and you do that by getting superstars on your team man.
What we're watching now is a team full of players that likely wont be around say for a couple if we ever take the next step because they aren't even close to being good enough.

And all these champs the last 7 years did so by signing talent; not drafting it.

Look at the history of all the teams that are synonymous with tanking. Look at their reputations.

The perpetual tank does nothing for this franchise and there isn't a single player in this draft that is going to turn this team into a 60+ win franchise; especially if we trade a high value player.

Then what? Tank some more. What if our pick this year is a bust? Keep tanking?

Tanking doesn't work.

[TankCommander]

Miami and Celtics say hello.

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

The Pacers are the most outlier team ever, like 04 pistons level. They got Paul George at the 10th pick and Roy Hibbert at the 18th. Thats great scouting, development, and luck. **** Lance Stephenson was a second round pick. That team has the perfect storm of scouting, development, mentorship, organization stability, and most importunely LUCK.

We aren't getting a Paul George at the 17th pick or something like. Lets look even deeper. Look at every NBA champion since 1980, there is a large correlation. Each team had a larger than life superstar. The lakers (magic x kareem), sixers (Dr. J x Moses Malone), pistons (Isaiah Thomas x Joe Dumars), celtics (Bird x Mchale xParish), the Bulls (The GOAT x Pippen), the rockets (Hakeem and Jordan playing baseball), the Spurs (Duncan), and the Lakers again (Kobe x Shaq). I could keep going but you get the point. Superstars matter more in the NBA than every league combined. Jordan meant more for the bulls than any other superstar meant for any superteam in any other sport. Getting a top 15 player plus a solid second banana and a great supporting class is the only forumla to win (the 04 pistons had 4 fantastic players who might not have been superstars but together were enough).

As constructed presently we do not have a player close to being a top 15 player nor a player who even has the potential for that. This particular draft has about 7 dynamic franchise caliber players, its like we are trying to tank for the 00 draft.

But again we could just stick with this team, overpay Lowry, bring in a couple decent vet players, and become the mid-00s Atlanta Hawks. Thats not bad but do you really want to be a yearly 2nd round fodder with overpaid role players? The lottery system is messed up and incentivizing losing sucks but we are raptors/basketball junkies so we have to play with the hand we were dealt. So thats why im pro-tank and im cool with the tanking the next two years, while trading away Demar or Lowry.

[Kabatnaz]

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

And how far did CLE go?
And how far did Minny go?
And how far did ORL go with Howard?
Did the Raptors do better than any of them without one????
*Bosh is not a superstar imo sorry...

These we're CONSISTENTLY in the Playoffs and had FAR better success than this team has ever had. They also did that almost SOLELY on the backs of their superstar player (nevermind they put together sh*t rosters around them) which only strengthens the tank's point and not yours. The fact we have to be damn near the cap and have to rely on a PLAGUE of injuries only to entertain a level BELOW what those teams did just shows how far off you are.

Also I hate when posters like you reference the Pacers or previously the Pistons like they are the typical situation when in reality they are the EXCEPTIONS (nevermind George, their FRANCHISE and best player was 10th which is far ahead of where we will draft)...do you know what an exception is??

It means it USUALLY doesn't happen, so we are greatly stacking the odds AGAINST ourselves if we're HOPING to pan out like the Pacers. At this point I will only have to pray that we're so lucky but there's just not much logic in your argument as I see it.

Bosh is a 2-time NBA Champion and 8-time NBA All Star and you don't think he's a superstar?

Tell me how I'm supposed to read the rest of what you wrote AND take you seriously

[eathb_au]

Building a winning culture >>> Tanking

[Kabatnaz]

Tanking got MIA Wade whom they built around and who went and convinced the other 2 to join him...tanking allowed BOS to not only get Pierce but again when they traded all their young "talent" for KG....so what are you saying again?

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

The Pacers are the most outlier team ever, like 04 pistons level. They got Paul George at the 10th pick and Roy Hibbert at the 18th. Thats great scouting, development, and luck. **** Lance Stephenson was a second round pick. That team has the perfect storm of scouting, development, mentorship, organization stability, and most importunely LUCK.

We aren't getting a Paul George at the 17th pick or something like. Lets look even deeper. Look at every NBA champion since 1980, there is a large correlation. Each team had a larger than life superstar. The lakers (magic x kareem), sixers (Dr. J x Moses Malone), pistons (Isaiah Thomas x Joe Dumars), celtics (Bird x Mchale xParish), the Bulls (The GOAT x Pippen), the rockets (Hakeem and Jordan playing baseball), the Spurs (Duncan), and the Lakers again (Kobe x Shaq). I could keep going but you get the point. Superstars matter more in the NBA than every league combined. Jordan meant more for the bulls than any other superstar meant for any superteam in any other sport. Getting a top 15 player plus a solid second banana and a great supporting class is the only forumla to win (the 04 pistons had 4 fantastic players who might not have been superstars but together were enough).

As constructed presently we do not have a player close to being a top 15 player nor a player who even has the potential for that. This particular draft has about 7 dynamic franchise caliber players, its like we are trying to tank for the 00 draft.

But again we could just stick with this team, overpay Lowry, bring in a couple decent vet players, and become the mid-00s Atlanta Hawks. Thats not bad but do you really want to be a yearly 2nd round fodder with overpaid role players? The lottery system is messed up and incentivizing losing sucks but we are raptors/basketball junkies so we have to play with the hand we were dealt. So thats why im pro-tank and im cool with the tanking the next two years, while trading away Demar or Lowry.

Out of all those superstars, how many were one and done in college?

And out of all the players just named; all of them are either Hall of Famers and or on heir way. Did anyone know they would be THAT good? What about coaching? Supporting casts?

For all the teams that were successful in drafting superstars there is the same amount of teams that weren't.

Most importantly: none of these teams were tanking on purpose; they were actually ****.

[TheGoodDoctor]

Bosh is a 2-time NBA Champion and 8-time NBA All Star and you don't think he's a superstar?

Tell me how I'm supposed to read the rest of what you wrote AND take you seriously

Bosh was considered around the league as a SUPERstar before he joined the Heat? Yes or No?

I'll help you out, no...he was considered a star because he was yes he was an all-star but no he wasn't considered a superstar as he was no franchise alternating talent or true franchise player.

If you think he was a superstar then please by all means expose your weak rationale by differentiating for all of us what a star is versus a superstar in this league is...

You'll see why guys like Lebron, Durant, Kobe are/were considered SUPERstars and guys like Bosh are a notch below and are more so stars but not superstars in this league.

I'll wait and you will continue to expose what a joke you are.

[Kabatnaz]

Bosh is a 2-time NBA Champion and 8-time NBA All Star and you don't think he's a superstar?

Tell me how I'm supposed to read the rest of what you wrote AND take you seriously

Bosh was considered around the league as a SUPERstar before he joined the Heat? Yes or No?

I'll help you out, no...he was considered a star because he was yes he was an all-star.

If you think he was a superstar then please by all means expose your weak rationale by differentiating for all of us what a star is versus a superstar in this league is...

I'll wait and you will continue to expose what a joke you are.

You're getting fired up.

2 chips
8 ASG
29 years old
Probably going to win another.

There's my rationale.

[BLOCK905]

Bosh is a 2-time NBA Champion and 8-time NBA All Star and you don't think he's a superstar?

Tell me how I'm supposed to read the rest of what you wrote AND take you seriously

Bosh was considered around the league as a SUPERstar before he joined the Heat? Yes or No?

I'll help you out, no...he was considered a star because he was yes he was an all-star.

If you think he was a superstar then please by all means expose your weak rationale by differentiating for all of us what a star is versus a superstar in this league is...

I'll wait and you will continue to expose what a joke you are.

You're getting fired up.

2 chips
8 ASG
29 years old
Probably going to win another.

There's my rationale.

If Bosh was putting up Toronto Bosh #s THIS SEASON in the NBA, he would easily be among the top players in the game... He was a CONSISTANT year in year out 22-25ppg player with 9-11 boards per game... over 50% fg.. not bad at all.

Kevin love is the only better power forward in the game (LBJ plays 1-4 he dont count lol).

[Basketball_Jones]

Building a winning culture >>> Tanking

Sure man, hope you enjoy your first ever Raptors playoff series this year

[TheGoodDoctor]

Bosh is a 2-time NBA Champion and 8-time NBA All Star and you don't think he's a superstar?

Tell me how I'm supposed to read the rest of what you wrote AND take you seriously

Bosh was considered around the league as a SUPERstar before he joined the Heat? Yes or No?

I'll help you out, no...he was considered a star because he was yes he was an all-star.

If you think he was a superstar then please by all means expose your weak rationale by differentiating for all of us what a star is versus a superstar in this league is...

I'll wait and you will continue to expose what a joke you are.

You're getting fired up.

2 chips
8 ASG
29 years old
Probably going to win another.

There's my rationale.

No attempt to explain the difference b/w star and superstar.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[roundhead0]

The strategy I am suggesting is to go out and win basketball games. That should be every teams strategy.

What's the point of drafting superstars if the supporting cast doesn't know how to win?

The strategy should be to win NBA championships and you do that by getting superstars on your team man.
What we're watching now is a team full of players that likely wont be around say for a couple if we ever take the next step because they aren't even close to being good enough.

And all these champs the last 7 years did so by signing talent; not drafting it.

Look at the history of all the teams that are synonymous with tanking. Look at their reputations.

The perpetual tank does nothing for this franchise and there isn't a single player in this draft that is going to turn this team into a 60+ win franchise; especially if we trade a high value player.

Then what? Tank some more. What if our pick this year is a bust? Keep tanking?

Tanking doesn't work.

Agauin with the strawmen. No one claims that tanking is a guarantee. N one claims that a single drafted player will turn this team into a 60+ win franchise. Only the strawmen arguments liek yours make that claim.

The arms race in the NBA has shot up dramaticaly. That is why teams like New York and Brooklyn had to sell their futures to acquire so many good players now, and why a team like Houston was not content with Harden and added Howard and will look to add another top-level talent: because they know that simply building good teams with good players IS NOT ENOUGH. You need franchise players to attract other all-star calibre players in order to really have a chance aside from just getting lucky.

YOU NEED TALENT TO ATTRACT TALENT. That's the way it is now. Treadmilling will not get you the talent that you need to get the other talent. Basically, by advocating trying to get these few wins now instead of willing to build in a way to actually win you have adopted a permanent loser mentality.

[TankCommander]

And Cleveland drafted LBJ
And Toronto drafted CB4
And Minnesota drafted KG


Drafting a superstar isn't a slam dunk as to whether or not you can compete as an elite team. It is a component, but hardly a mitigating factor.

Take a look at the Pacers.

The Pacers are the most outlier team ever, like 04 pistons level. They got Paul George at the 10th pick and Roy Hibbert at the 18th. Thats great scouting, development, and luck. **** Lance Stephenson was a second round pick. That team has the perfect storm of scouting, development, mentorship, organization stability, and most importunely LUCK.

We aren't getting a Paul George at the 17th pick or something like. Lets look even deeper. Look at every NBA champion since 1980, there is a large correlation. Each team had a larger than life superstar. The lakers (magic x kareem), sixers (Dr. J x Moses Malone), pistons (Isaiah Thomas x Joe Dumars), celtics (Bird x Mchale xParish), the Bulls (The GOAT x Pippen), the rockets (Hakeem and Jordan playing baseball), the Spurs (Duncan), and the Lakers again (Kobe x Shaq). I could keep going but you get the point. Superstars matter more in the NBA than every league combined. Jordan meant more for the bulls than any other superstar meant for any superteam in any other sport. Getting a top 15 player plus a solid second banana and a great supporting class is the only forumla to win (the 04 pistons had 4 fantastic players who might not have been superstars but together were enough).

As constructed presently we do not have a player close to being a top 15 player nor a player who even has the potential for that. This particular draft has about 7 dynamic franchise caliber players, its like we are trying to tank for the 00 draft.

But again we could just stick with this team, overpay Lowry, bring in a couple decent vet players, and become the mid-00s Atlanta Hawks. Thats not bad but do you really want to be a yearly 2nd round fodder with overpaid role players? The lottery system is messed up and incentivizing losing sucks but we are raptors/basketball junkies so we have to play with the hand we were dealt. So thats why im pro-tank and im cool with the tanking the next two years, while trading away Demar or Lowry.

Out of all those superstars, how many were one and done in college?

And out of all the players just named; all of them are either Hall of Famers and or on heir way. Did anyone know they would be THAT good? What about coaching? Supporting casts?

For all the teams that were successful in drafting superstars there is the same amount of teams that weren't.

Most importantly: none of these teams were tanking on purpose; they were actually ****.

The most important part wasn't how these superstars were obtained but that superstars are needed to win championships. Today's NBA is completely different than the NBA in the 1980s (where horrible asset management was rampant and relatively worse scouting). In today's analytical based NBA its much harder to find these hidden gems and teams are just too sophisticated to allow these impact players to fall in the draft.

The fact is that we do not have one impact/top15-20 player on this team and for the most part we are filled with decent players who would be great depth on a championship caliber team. The only reason we aren't a bottom feeder team is due to the fact that Eastern Conference might be the worst conference ever and our bad team is slightly less worse than the other 13 bad teams. This is not because this team is brimming with talent and impact players. This is no reason to build around this core unless treadmilling for the next couple of years is what you are looking for as a Raptors fan.

[Kabatnaz]

Bosh was considered around the league as a SUPERstar before he joined the Heat? Yes or No?

I'll help you out, no...he was considered a star because he was yes he was an all-star.

If you think he was a superstar then please by all means expose your weak rationale by differentiating for all of us what a star is versus a superstar in this league is...

I'll wait and you will continue to expose what a joke you are.

You're getting fired up.

2 chips
8 ASG
29 years old
Probably going to win another.

There's my rationale.

No attempt to explain the difference b/w star and superstar.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I think you should be the one to explain because you obviously don't think that those accomplishments warrant superstar status.

You could argue that those chips are a direct result of playing with LBJ and Flash; but LBJ didn't win anything until he paired up with Flash and Bosh.

What about the 8 ASG appearances?

You tell me why Bosh isn't a superstar and I'll keep repeating 2 rings, 8 ASG and 4th overall pick in the deepest draft in NBA history.

Ironically enough the tank wants to argue that getting top a top 5 pick in this draft is essential because.... Wait for it.... This draft is as loaded with franchise players as the 2003 draft was.

Feeling a little exposed?

[BLOCK905]

Alright, I hoped MU would do something pre-season and everyone was like oh no, patience, better deals.

LOOK WHAT THE **** HAPPENED FOLKS.

THIS IS WHY YOU PULL THE **** TRIGGER AND GROW A PAIR.

**** OUTTA HERE PUSSY GM's.

So sad I have absolutely NO HOPE for any point in the future for my hometown franchise.

Guess its time to just let it go, have fun folks I hope TWO stays strong!

[Kabatnaz]

The strategy should be to win NBA championships and you do that by getting superstars on your team man.
What we're watching now is a team full of players that likely wont be around say for a couple if we ever take the next step because they aren't even close to being good enough.

And all these champs the last 7 years did so by signing talent; not drafting it.

Look at the history of all the teams that are synonymous with tanking. Look at their reputations.

The perpetual tank does nothing for this franchise and there isn't a single player in this draft that is going to turn this team into a 60+ win franchise; especially if we trade a high value player.

Then what? Tank some more. What if our pick this year is a bust? Keep tanking?

Tanking doesn't work.

Agauin with the strawmen. No one claims that tanking is a guarantee. N one claims that a single drafted player will turn this team into a 60+ win franchise. Only the strawmen arguments liek yours make that claim.

The arms race in the NBA has shot up dramaticaly. That is why teams like New York and Brooklyn had to sell their futures to acquire so many good players now, and why a team like Houston was not content with Harden and added Howard and will look to add another top-level talent: because they know that simply building good teams with good players IS NOT ENOUGH. You need franchise players to attract other all-star calibre players in order to really have a chance aside from just getting lucky.

YOU NEED TALENT TO ATTRACT TALENT. That's the way it is now. Treadmilling will not get you the talent that you need to get the other talent. Basically, by advocating trying to get these few wins now instead of willing to build in a way to actually win you have adopted a permanent loser mentality.

Permanent loser mentality by winning basketball games.

...

Lol

[TheGoodDoctor]

You're getting fired up.

2 chips
8 ASG
29 years old
Probably going to win another.

There's my rationale.

No attempt to explain the difference b/w star and superstar.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I think you should be the one to explain because you obviously don't think that those accomplishments warrant superstar status.

You could argue that those chips are a direct result of playing with LBJ and Flash; but LBJ didn't win anything until he paired up with Flash and Bosh.

What about the 8 ASG appearances?

You tell me why Bosh isn't a superstar and I'll keep repeating 2 rings, 8 ASG and 4th overall pick in the deepest draft in NBA history.

Ironically enough the tank wants to argue that getting top a top 5 pick in this draft is essential because.... Wait for it.... This draft is as loaded with franchise players as the 2003 draft was.

Feeling a little exposed?

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.