TWO: Tank World Order

[roundhead0]

And all these champs the last 7 years did so by signing talent; not drafting it.

Look at the history of all the teams that are synonymous with tanking. Look at their reputations.

The perpetual tank does nothing for this franchise and there isn't a single player in this draft that is going to turn this team into a 60+ win franchise; especially if we trade a high value player.

Then what? Tank some more. What if our pick this year is a bust? Keep tanking?

Tanking doesn't work.

Agauin with the strawmen. No one claims that tanking is a guarantee. N one claims that a single drafted player will turn this team into a 60+ win franchise. Only the strawmen arguments liek yours make that claim.

The arms race in the NBA has shot up dramaticaly. That is why teams like New York and Brooklyn had to sell their futures to acquire so many good players now, and why a team like Houston was not content with Harden and added Howard and will look to add another top-level talent: because they know that simply building good teams with good players IS NOT ENOUGH. You need franchise players to attract other all-star calibre players in order to really have a chance aside from just getting lucky.

YOU NEED TALENT TO ATTRACT TALENT. That's the way it is now. Treadmilling will not get you the talent that you need to get the other talent. Basically, by advocating trying to get these few wins now instead of willing to build in a way to actually win you have adopted a permanent loser mentality.

Permanent loser mentality by winning basketball games.

...

Lol

Yep: loser mentality. You're so afraid of taking a chance that you willingly embrace virtually guaranteed failure instead. That is a loser mentality.

[BLOCK905]

This winning culture bull is talked about to death in Toronto and no-where else.

You think these NBA players don't know whats happening this year?

You think all of a sudden Kevin Love will wake up one day like , OH SNAP RAPS WERE ATLANTIC CHAMPS? SIGN ME UP!

They know how we won it.

[roundhead0]

This winning culture bull is talked about to death in Toronto and no-where else.

You think these NBA players don't know whats happening this year?

You think all of a sudden Kevin Love will wake up one day like , OH SNAP RAPS WERE ATLANTIC CHAMPS? SIGN ME UP!

They know how we won it.

These are the same people who think that if we could just win a few playoff games we could sell all our players high as if no one had ever seen them play before lol.

[Kabatnaz]

No attempt to explain the difference b/w star and superstar.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I think you should be the one to explain because you obviously don't think that those accomplishments warrant superstar status.

You could argue that those chips are a direct result of playing with LBJ and Flash; but LBJ didn't win anything until he paired up with Flash and Bosh.

What about the 8 ASG appearances?

You tell me why Bosh isn't a superstar and I'll keep repeating 2 rings, 8 ASG and 4th overall pick in the deepest draft in NBA history.

Ironically enough the tank wants to argue that getting top a top 5 pick in this draft is essential because.... Wait for it.... This draft is as loaded with franchise players as the 2003 draft was.

Feeling a little exposed?

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

[BLOCK905]

I think hes confusing ALL TIME GREAT HOF'r POSSIBLE GOAT with NBA SUPERSTAR. The two aren't even close.

[Kabatnaz]

The Pacers are the most outlier team ever, like 04 pistons level. They got Paul George at the 10th pick and Roy Hibbert at the 18th. Thats great scouting, development, and luck. **** Lance Stephenson was a second round pick. That team has the perfect storm of scouting, development, mentorship, organization stability, and most importunely LUCK.

We aren't getting a Paul George at the 17th pick or something like. Lets look even deeper. Look at every NBA champion since 1980, there is a large correlation. Each team had a larger than life superstar. The lakers (magic x kareem), sixers (Dr. J x Moses Malone), pistons (Isaiah Thomas x Joe Dumars), celtics (Bird x Mchale xParish), the Bulls (The GOAT x Pippen), the rockets (Hakeem and Jordan playing baseball), the Spurs (Duncan), and the Lakers again (Kobe x Shaq). I could keep going but you get the point. Superstars matter more in the NBA than every league combined. Jordan meant more for the bulls than any other superstar meant for any superteam in any other sport. Getting a top 15 player plus a solid second banana and a great supporting class is the only forumla to win (the 04 pistons had 4 fantastic players who might not have been superstars but together were enough).

As constructed presently we do not have a player close to being a top 15 player nor a player who even has the potential for that. This particular draft has about 7 dynamic franchise caliber players, its like we are trying to tank for the 00 draft.

But again we could just stick with this team, overpay Lowry, bring in a couple decent vet players, and become the mid-00s Atlanta Hawks. Thats not bad but do you really want to be a yearly 2nd round fodder with overpaid role players? The lottery system is messed up and incentivizing losing sucks but we are raptors/basketball junkies so we have to play with the hand we were dealt. So thats why im pro-tank and im cool with the tanking the next two years, while trading away Demar or Lowry.

Out of all those superstars, how many were one and done in college?

And out of all the players just named; all of them are either Hall of Famers and or on heir way. Did anyone know they would be THAT good? What about coaching? Supporting casts?

For all the teams that were successful in drafting superstars there is the same amount of teams that weren't.

Most importantly: none of these teams were tanking on purpose; they were actually ****.

The most important part wasn't how these superstars were obtained but that superstars are needed to win championships. Today's NBA is completely different than the NBA in the 1980s (where horrible asset management was rampant and relatively worse scouting). In today's analytical based NBA its much harder to find these hidden gems and teams are just too sophisticated to allow these impact players to fall in the draft.

The fact is that we do not have one impact/top15-20 player on this team and for the most part we are filled with decent players who would be great depth on a championship caliber team. The only reason we aren't a bottom feeder team is due to the fact that Eastern Conference might be the worst conference ever and our bad team is slightly less worse than the other 13 bad teams. This is not because this team is brimming with talent and impact players. This is no reason to build around this core unless treadmilling for the next couple of years is what you are looking for as a Raptors fan.

Fact is that he front runner ROY is outside the top 10 and the runner up outside the top 20. I understand that they are 2 completely different draft classes, but it is still possible to get late 1st round talent that you can build on. Every draft has that player. Every one.

[TheGoodDoctor]

I think you should be the one to explain because you obviously don't think that those accomplishments warrant superstar status.

You could argue that those chips are a direct result of playing with LBJ and Flash; but LBJ didn't win anything until he paired up with Flash and Bosh.

What about the 8 ASG appearances?

You tell me why Bosh isn't a superstar and I'll keep repeating 2 rings, 8 ASG and 4th overall pick in the deepest draft in NBA history.

Ironically enough the tank wants to argue that getting top a top 5 pick in this draft is essential because.... Wait for it.... This draft is as loaded with franchise players as the 2003 draft was.

Feeling a little exposed?

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Are you seriously asking if Bosh is worse than Pippen (a top 50 NBA player of all time)???

We're done here.

[Kabatnaz]

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Are you seriously asking if Bosh is worse than Pippen (a top 50 NBA player of all time)???

We're done here.

We were done a long time ago when you argued that Bosh isn't a superstar and that this team drafted him 4th overall in the deepest draft in NBA history and we still failed to be successful because of it.

But Yay tanking!!

Edit: also, thanks for clarifying that the only way you can be a superstar is if you join the HOF and considered GOAT.

Good job with reasoning.

[BLOCK905]

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Are you seriously asking if Bosh is worse than Pippen (a top 50 NBA player of all time)???

We're done here.

We were done a long time ago when you argued that Bosh isn't a superstar and that this team drafted him 4th overall in the deepest draft in NBA history and we still failed to be successful because of it.

But Yay tanking!!

I garuntee if MU was here and we drafted Bosh all over again it would be a different story. Bosh took us further then anyone else in the last 10 years, sup?

[roundhead0]

I think you should be the one to explain because you obviously don't think that those accomplishments warrant superstar status.

You could argue that those chips are a direct result of playing with LBJ and Flash; but LBJ didn't win anything until he paired up with Flash and Bosh.

What about the 8 ASG appearances?

You tell me why Bosh isn't a superstar and I'll keep repeating 2 rings, 8 ASG and 4th overall pick in the deepest draft in NBA history.

Ironically enough the tank wants to argue that getting top a top 5 pick in this draft is essential because.... Wait for it.... This draft is as loaded with franchise players as the 2003 draft was.

Feeling a little exposed?

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Wait--are you actually arguing that Bosh is as good Pippen?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wait wait let me join in: Vince Carter was as good as Michael Jordan!

Alvin Williams was as good as Oscar Robertson!

Wilt Chamberlain had nothing on Antonio Davis!

Look, Bosh is a really good player, but don't be ridiculous.

[Wo1verine]

Kabatnaz, tell me what you suggest when a Lowry/DeRozan team gets routed by Miami/Indy and Lowry expires and goes to play for a real contender..what then? How do we get better then? No one's going to trade us a star because we don't have the pieces to get one, we don't have the draft position to draft one and no star is going to sign with Toronto. So please tell me, how do YOU plan to make this team a contender?

Fans who are not pro-tank seem to not understand that the way the foundation of your team is built determines what it will be in the end. If you throw a team together like the one we have, it will NEVER go past the first round even IF it makes the playoffs. Why? Because we don't have the TALENT it takes to get there. Talent comes from the DRAFT, the superstar talent typically comes from the TOP of the DRAFT.

rapsfan2007 said it best.

[Kabatnaz]

Again you failed to compare a star versus a superstar....but I guess Durant, Lebron, Kobe = to Bosh

Oh no wait like I said...you fail yet again.

At least you thought you sounded smart though.

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Wait--are you actually arguing that Bosh is as good Pippen?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wait wait let me join in: Vince Carter was as good as Michael Jordan!

Alvin Williams was as good as Oscar Robertson!

Wilt Chamberlain had nothing on Antonio Davis!

Look, Bosh is a really good player, but don't be ridiculous.

What I'm arguing is that Bosh is a superstar.

Bosh plays beside LBJ and Pippen played beside God.

[TheGoodDoctor]

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Are you seriously asking if Bosh is worse than Pippen (a top 50 NBA player of all time)???

We're done here.

We were done a long time ago when you argued that Bosh isn't a superstar and that this team drafted him 4th overall in the deepest draft in NBA history and we still failed to be successful because of it.

But Yay tanking!!

Edit: also, thanks for clarifying that the only way you can be a superstar is if you join the HOF and considered GOAT.

Good job with reasoning.

There's a saying about arguing with fools so like I said we're done here champ.

[Kabatnaz]

Kabatnaz, tell me what you suggest when a Lowry/DeRozan team gets routed by Miami/Indy and Lowry expires and goes to play for a real contender..what then? How do we get better then? No one's going to trade us a star because we don't have the pieces to get one, we don't have the draft position to draft one and no star is going to sign with Toronto. So please tell me, how do YOU plan to make this team a contender?

Fans who are not pro-tank seem to not understand that the way the foundation of your team is built determines what it will be in the end. If you throw a team together like the one we have, it will NEVER go past the first round even IF it makes the playoffs. Why? Because we don't have the TALENT it takes to get there. Talent comes from the DRAFT, the superstar talent typically comes from the TOP of the DRAFT.

rapsfan2007 said it best.

What I am saying is that you can build through assets and the only way to increase the value of current assets is to prove that they know how to win.

There is no guarantee that anyone we draft is going to have a Lebron-type impact on this team. Lowry and Derozan only have value if this team is winning.

If they suck, we get pennies on the dollar.

Tankers are blind to the fact that there are 15 other guys that MU needs to develop and you need to ask yourself if their development should be put aside in order to potentially draft high and what kind of impression does that leave with the rest of the team?

We're talking millions of dollars of investment and hours of work.

No athlete who takes themselves seriously wants to lose.

Have any of you EVER played competitive sports or won anything in your lives?

If anyone of you were my teammate and wanted to lose; I'd kick you out.

[Kabatnaz]

Are you seriously asking if Bosh is worse than Pippen (a top 50 NBA player of all time)???

We're done here.

We were done a long time ago when you argued that Bosh isn't a superstar and that this team drafted him 4th overall in the deepest draft in NBA history and we still failed to be successful because of it.

But Yay tanking!!

Edit: also, thanks for clarifying that the only way you can be a superstar is if you join the HOF and considered GOAT.

Good job with reasoning.

There's a saying about arguing with fools so like I said we're done here champ.

You can't defend your argument and yet I'm the chump?

You keep telling yourself that Bosh isn't a superstar.

[roundhead0]

So unless an NBA player is at the level of Kobe, Durant or LBJ then they aren't superstars?

You do realize that 2 out of those 3 are literally in the conversation of perhaps being GOAT.

Pippen was a superstar.... Is Bosh worse than Pippen?

Use logic, please.

Wait--are you actually arguing that Bosh is as good Pippen?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wait wait let me join in: Vince Carter was as good as Michael Jordan!

Alvin Williams was as good as Oscar Robertson!

Wilt Chamberlain had nothing on Antonio Davis!

Look, Bosh is a really good player, but don't be ridiculous.

What I'm arguing is that Bosh is a superstar.

Bosh plays beside LBJ and Pippen played beside God.

Ok, let me ask this differently: Where in the NBA do you think Bosh ranks? Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

How many "Superstars" do you think the NBA actually has?

It could be that you have a much looser definition of "superstar" than the rest of us. Or it could be that you vastly overestimate Bosh. That is why we ask.

[Raps in 4]

Tankers are blind to the fact that there are 15 other guys that MU needs to develop

There are only two players on this team that MU needs develop because they are the only two players on the roster that haven't peaked yet.

[Kabatnaz]

Wait--are you actually arguing that Bosh is as good Pippen?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Wait wait let me join in: Vince Carter was as good as Michael Jordan!

Alvin Williams was as good as Oscar Robertson!

Wilt Chamberlain had nothing on Antonio Davis!

Look, Bosh is a really good player, but don't be ridiculous.

What I'm arguing is that Bosh is a superstar.

Bosh plays beside LBJ and Pippen played beside God.

Ok, let me ask this differently: Where in the NBA do you think Bosh ranks? Top 5? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

How many "Superstars" do you think the NBA actually has?

It could be that you have a much looser definition of "superstar" than the rest of us. Or it could be that you vastly overestimate Bosh. That is why we ask.

I'd say top 25. He'd be a number 1 guy on plenty teams in the NBA.

[WigginsNation]

Im so upset with this team!! Us winning games is useless this year, especially with Lowry most likely gone next yr. Being a raptors fan can be painful and damn frustrating.

[Wo1verine]

What I am saying is that you can build through assets and the only way to increase the value of current assets is to prove that they know how to win.

This is such nonsense man! C'mon you really think guys like Lowry and DD are going to get THAT much more value for making the playoffs with half the East being piss ass poor?

There is no guarantee that anyone we draft is going to have a Lebron-type impact on this team. Lowry and Derozan only have value if this team is winning.

No, Lowry and DeMar determine their value by how well they play (stats don't lie) and also by how much other teams are desperate to add players at those positions.

Nobodies saying anything is guaranteed, it's just better route to take by a mile as it opens up more options as well considering picks are likely to have much more value then the above players mentioned.