TWO: Tank World Order

[Danchan]

Since no one answered this question I will ask it again...

Does playing .500 ball this year in a historically bad eastern conference counts as winning culture? What is the difference between this and when we won the Atlantic title? At least that time we had an all star in Cbris bosh and had something to build on.

[rove]

Since no one answered this question I will ask it again...

Does playing .500 ball this year in a historically bad eastern conference counts as winning culture? What is the difference between this and when we won the Atlantic title? At least that time we had an all star in Cbris bosh and had something to build on.

There is no difference. They just chose to ignore history.

I also love when people say "we don't tank this year but we'll tank for SURE next year." Well I'll bite. Let's say if we went to the vaunted 2nd round this year. You're MU. Could you justify to us "long suffering Rap fans" that we should let all of our "assets" go and tank in 2015 to chase whatever superstar at the end of that rainbow? People will say you're nuts! We have a winning team and should go for organic growth. You'll be burned at the stake!

Like I said numerous times before, THIS was the perfect year to tank: magnificent talents in the draft, new management, low expectations and a Canadian superstar could go #1. When we "wait and see" that means that opportunity has passed.






And now excuse me while I celebrate our Titanic Division title like 2007! All Hail BC! Oops I meant Masai - they just look so much alike!!

[dagger]

Since no one answered this question I will ask it again...

Does playing .500 ball this year in a historically bad eastern conference counts as winning culture? What is the difference between this and when we won the Atlantic title? At least that time we had an all star in Cbris bosh and had something to build on.

There is no difference. They just chose to ignore history.

I also love when people say "we don't tank this year but we'll tank for SURE next year." Well I'll bite. Let's say if we went to the vaunted 2nd round this year. You're MU. Could you justify to us "long suffering Rap fans" that we should let all of our "assets" go and tank in 2015 to chase whatever superstar at the end of that rainbow? People will say you're nuts! We have a winning team and should go for organic growth. You'll be burned at the stake!

Like I said numerous times before, THIS was the perfect year to tank: magnificent talents in the draft, new management, low expectations and a Canadian superstar could go #1. When we "wait and see" that means that opportunity has passed.






And now excuse me while I celebrate our Titanic Division title like 2007! All Hail BC! Oops I meant Masai - they just look so much alike!!

2006 - the team was built around Bosh using late-career veteran starters Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa and Rasho Nesterovic. All of them wilted noticeably after that, and Garbo never even played again, but tied up $4m of cap space with his buyout. We had just drafted Bargnani, who history showed did not have the hoped-for upside. We had no first round pick in the 2007 draft, and little cap flexibility in the summer of 2007. However, we had some upside talent in Bosh, of course, and there was considerable hope vested in TJ Ford. In 2007, Ford's career took a turn for the worse when he was almost crippled by that shot to the head from Al Horford, and he could not adjust to being a bench player. The downturn of Colangelo's tenure pretty much dates back to that point. The Raptors looked pretty good when Ford went down, and he was playing his best basketball ever.

2013 - though we have no one as close to star status as Bosh - though Bosh's all-star status was kind of burnished by his blatant vote-seeking - we have five starters right now ranging in age from 21 to 27, a better cap situation next year than we had entering 2007-08 (the year after our Atlantic Division title), and we do have our draft pick which is unlikely to be worse than late teens. We have assets like Salmons contract which can be parlayed into either a modest upgrade for next season, or an additional draft pick in 2015 or later. Excluding options and qualifying options for bench players, the guaranteed portions of our 2014-15 salary obligations add up to around $41 million, plus draft pick salaries, which will bring the total to around $45 million. That's a much better situation than we had in 2006.

[roundhead0]

Since tanking is off the table, I'd love nothing more than for this team to finish in 7-11 territory just so I can see TL and MU squirm in their seats. Our record right now is right up that alley, but they will just point to the seeding as a cop out.

Ideally they'd get the boot, but it's unlikely. I'd be content with them simply having to answer to the media.

At least in 7-11 territory we might get another useful player for the future, but still likely not the difference maker this team needs. So maybe it's a player who can replace Lowry in a couple of years. Huzzah, we're back to where we started.

Or that player--if moved soon enough and/or packaged, could be turned into a better asset.

[roundhead0]

2006 - the team was built around Bosh using late-career veteran starters Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa and Rasho Nesterovic. All of them wilted noticeably after that, and Garbo never even played again, but tied up $4m of cap space with his buyout. We had just drafted Bargnani, who history showed did not have the hoped-for upside. We had no first round pick in the 2007 draft, and little cap flexibility in the summer of 2007. However, we had some upside talent in Bosh, of course, and there was considerable hope vested in TJ Ford. In 2007, Ford's career took a turn for the worse when he was almost crippled by that shot to the head from Al Horford, and he could not adjust to being a bench player. The downturn of Colangelo's tenure pretty much dates back to that point. The Raptors looked pretty good when Ford went down, and he was playing his best basketball ever.

2013 - though we have no one as close to star status as Bosh - though Bosh's all-star status was kind of burnished by his blatant vote-seeking - we have five starters right now ranging in age from 21 to 27, a better cap situation next year than we had entering 2007-08 (the year after our Atlantic Division title), and we do have our draft pick which is unlikely to be worse than late teens. We have assets like Salmons contract which can be parlayed into either a modest upgrade for next season, or an additional draft pick in 2015 or later. Excluding options and qualifying options for bench players, the guaranteed portions of our 2014-15 salary obligations add up to around $41 million, plus draft pick salaries, which will bring the total to around $45 million. That's a much better situation than we had in 2006.

I disagree. While there is a longer list of things that are better for 2013, the reality is that in 2006 you had a core of Bosh/Ford who were probably good enough (especially since their skillsets were very complementary) to build around. Add a great rim defender or a dynamic wing of even close to all-star level and that probably would have become the best Raptor team ever. If Bargnani had been anywhere even close to living up to his potential he (or whatever he was parlayed into) could have made this team a contender. Or if BC makes a different deal instead of dealing all those assets for JO. Not a favourite perhaps, but definitely in the conversation.

We all know that it didn't happen. Bargnani flamed out and Ford got hurt. But at least that setup was in a position where they could have been something, and that's because they had something worth building around.

Perhaps if Lowry was going to stay on a reasonable contract you could try to argue that JV (assuming he grows into his potential) and Lowry could be the next Bosh/Ford duo needing just the one more player to get into the contention conversation. But JV is still a question mark and Lowry doesn't seem likely to stay at any reasonable price.

[rove]

2006 - the team was built around Bosh using late-career veteran starters Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa and Rasho Nesterovic. All of them wilted noticeably after that, and Garbo never even played again, but tied up $4m of cap space with his buyout. We had just drafted Bargnani, who history showed did not have the hoped-for upside. We had no first round pick in the 2007 draft, and little cap flexibility in the summer of 2007. However, we had some upside talent in Bosh, of course, and there was considerable hope vested in TJ Ford. In 2007, Ford's career took a turn for the worse when he was almost crippled by that shot to the head from Al Horford, and he could not adjust to being a bench player. The downturn of Colangelo's tenure pretty much dates back to that point. The Raptors looked pretty good when Ford went down, and he was playing his best basketball ever.

2013 - though we have no one as close to star status as Bosh - though Bosh's all-star status was kind of burnished by his blatant vote-seeking - we have five starters right now ranging in age from 21 to 27, a better cap situation next year than we had entering 2007-08 (the year after our Atlantic Division title), and we do have our draft pick which is unlikely to be worse than late teens. We have assets like Salmons contract which can be parlayed into either a modest upgrade for next season, or an additional draft pick in 2015 or later. Excluding options and qualifying options for bench players, the guaranteed portions of our 2014-15 salary obligations add up to around $41 million, plus draft pick salaries, which will bring the total to around $45 million. That's a much better situation than we had in 2006.

<Sam Jackson>Well allow me to retort. </Sam Jackson>

2006-07 Atlantic division:

Toronto Raptors 0.573
New Jersey Nets 0.500
Philadelphia 76ers 0.427
New York Knicks 0.402
Boston Celtics 0.293

We had a lame duck coach (Mitchell) who coached the team to Division title. We had high hopes for our #1 pick (Bargs). Our expiring PG showed a lot of promise and we proceeded to resign him to a big contract (TJ). We traded a dead weight (Araujo) for a useful piece (Hump). We had about 8 mil in cap space for the off-season (that we used to get Delfino and signed Kapono).

2013-14 Atlantic division:

Toronto 0.444
Boston 0.433
Brooklyn 0.345
New York 0.310
Philadelphia 0.286

We have a lame duck coach (Casey) who may coach the team to Division title. We have high hopes for our #5 pick (Val). Our expiring PG shows a lot of promise though we're still toying with the idea of resigning him to a big contract (Lowry). We traded a dead weight (Gay) for useful pieces (Vasquez, Salmons and Patterson). We have about 10 mil in cap space for the off-season.

So my friend, how similar are the situations? Eerily so I'd say. In fact it's arguable that 2006-07 we're sitting better thanks to that #1 pick player and Bosh.

Now I'm not saying MU will do as god-awful a job BC did. But don't feed me the Kool-Aid before I see god's work.

[FlyLo]

I think all this "the tank is off" talk is very premature. We've seen how easily this team can go from world-beaters to losing to bottom feeders. Last year we were something like 5 games out of the playoffs and had an easy week to set us up for a push and we pretty much blew all the games we should have won. We're a handful of games above the "supposed" tanking teams, and there's 45-50 games left. A 3 game losing streak here, a 4 game losing streak there, and we're right in the thick of it.

A couple of years ago Golden State went from playing for the playoffs to shutting it down and edging us out for the 7th pick (the infamous coin toss), and that was in a matter of 6-8 weeks. We're a Lowry or Amir injury away, or just a Casey-having-a-bad-week away from looking like we need a rebuild that justifies Ujiri's ensuing moves. The winds change fast, especially when you've historically been a fair weather team, and I've seen nothing from this team suggest that we won't do a heel-face turn at an inopportune time.

Now, obviously that sounds very Pro-Tank, but I think it's important to have a balanced perspective here and not drink the kool-aid of a period in which a Rudy Gay trade allows us to play proper basketball (seems like a yearly tradition). Teams will scout us, teams will get healthy, and we don't want to be involved in one of those race-for-the-playoffs type situations in a year like this. Ujiri adding depth brings a kind of 'fools gold' certainty to Casey's head-scratching substitution patterns and inane game management, that's all that's happening here. Don't get me wrong, I'm encouraged by the play of our bigs and backcourt, but let's not kid ourselves this is not a one-piece-away-team we're talking about here.

When Ujiri preaches patience, he's not talking about the weather, he's talking about the climate. He still couldn't tell you how many games we've won.

[Inevitable]

though we have no one as close to star status as Bosh - though Bosh's all-star status was kind of burnished by his blatant vote-seeking-

What is this supposed to even mean lol he was a 22/10 player on a winning team.

[BLOCK905]

ANYONE SUPPORTING THE TANK - PLEASE STOP ARGUING LOGICAL POINTS WITH THE REST OF EM OVER AND OVER.

WASTE OF YOUR TIME!

lets just laugh in here and bump this thread like crazy next year.

[BLOCK905]

though we have no one as close to star status as Bosh - though Bosh's all-star status was kind of burnished by his blatant vote-seeking-

What is this supposed to even mean lol he was a 22/10 player on a winning team.

he had 25/11 one year if i recall lol.. easily allstar.

[BLOCK905]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHLfFUugHDQ[/youtube]

[Chaos Engine]

Its looking bad tank brothers. Some fans just want instant gratification instead of seeing what's best for our future. These are the same fans that cheered for our winning steak at the end of the lockout season that gave us Ross instead of Davis/Beal/Lillard/Barnes.

[OakleyDokely]

I think this thread needs to be re-named Treadmill World Order until further notice.

[Don_Draper]

We are really in a sh*tty situation. You can't deny that. Tank or no tank we are screwed either way.

The thing that helps me sleep at night is that we have a good GM.

If we don't end up getting Wiggins, he won't end up overpaying for Lowry or some other crappy FA to make this treadmill of a team continue to be the same sh*tty team of the past decade.

He does things fundamentally right....we are in good hands, or so I hope.

So far, he's been great.

[Raps in 4]

The thing that helps me sleep at night is that we have a good GM.

Do we really though? You have to call his ability into question when he decides to forgo the strongest draft in years for a chance at a playoff appearance.

[Turbo_Zone]

Perfect time to:



Link: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8385/bcq.gif

Tankers get a tank, everyone else gets an accelerated rebuild they are dying for.

Lose-Win!

[Don_Draper]

The thing that helps me sleep at night is that we have a good GM.

Do we really though? You have to call his ability into question when he decides to forgo the strongest draft in years for a chance at a playoff appearance.

Put yourself in his shoes. If he blows it up, and tanks for a top draft pick and we don't end up getting one of the top 3 draft picks, do you realize what would that mean? This whole thing will blow up in his face and people will call for his head.

So far he has rid us of Bargs and Gay contracts....and at the very least I enjoy watching the Raptors play. We move the ball and we play hard nosed defense. We compete night in night out. Something I haven't been able to say for the past 10 years. That alone keeps me sleep well at night.

This guy knows what he is doing. Have some faith.

[Dr Octagon]

Perfect time to:



Link: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8385/bcq.gif

Tankers get a tank, everyone else gets an accelerated rebuild they are dying for.

Lose-Win!

You're wrong.

It's perfect time to make the playoffs in a historically bad conference, sell lots of tickets and future season tickets, and to sell specialty TV channels.

[Jballa]

Warned

[fredericklove]

The thing that helps me sleep at night is that we have a good GM.

Do we really though? You have to call his ability into question when he decides to forgo the strongest draft in years for a chance at a playoff appearance.

Put yourself in his shoes. If he blows it up, and tanks for a top draft pick and we don't end up getting one of the top 3 draft picks, do you realize what would that mean? This whole thing will blow up in his face and people will call for his head.

I doubt he cares about ppl's criticism, he only cares about what goes on in his plan, and theoretically missing out on the top 3 but remains in 4-6th pick is still in solid position for a very good player (e.g. Randle, Exum, Smart).