GT: Charlotte @ Atlanta Dec 28th - 7:30pm ET

[Liver_Pooty]

Thought I missed out on something, then I saw the name Shabazz Napier mentioned more times in this thread than at any moment in history and realized there wasn't any reason to read any previous post.

[ball teacher]

I saw a few games but I didnt really pay attention to the Huskies until the late in the tourney, and from what I remember Napier was the guy that played point when the two were in the game together. All you have to do is look at his game and it's clear that he's a better SG than PG. He's averaging about the same number assists as Mcroberts. Kemba has 4.7, Mcbob has 4.4. Yet Kemba is probably taking more shots than anyone on the team, do we really need him to be the leading shot taker? His FG% isn't great by any stretch of the imagination.

What I'll say is Kemba blew up nationally as a scorer in college, the questions about can he be a NBA point guard are fair and valid because he wasnt recognised as a lottery pick for his point guard skills, it was because of his scoring. We run a offense that requires very little play making from him but it does utilize him as a main scoring threat. I'm not knocking his game either, I'm just stating what he is, which is a scoring guard who is listed as a point guard, same as Westbrook in OKC, he plays point, but nothing about his game says he's a point guard.

You could say the same thing about at least 20 of the other starting point guards in the NBA. The game is evolving. Guys like Rubio and Calderon would've been really successful in other eras, but they aren't effective in this era, where you need more scoring from the point guard position. What do almost all the top PGs in the NBA have in common? They are premier scorers. Stick a guy like Calderon on this team instead of Kemba, we'd be down there with Philly and Orlando close to the bottom of the league. Guys like Parker, Westbrook, Rose, Irving, Kemba, etc. That's the new age of point guards. They lead the attack, and a lot of time they are the leading scorers. Nothing wrong with that.

I already said that in the post earlier

IMO, there's really only a few real playmaking point guards left. Paul, Rubio, Nash, and Rondo. Maybe D Will is in the convo too. I dont see many point guards with great handles like they used to have, I dont see many with the ability to shake a defender one on one like they used too, and I dont see much floor generalship with many of these guys. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1293503&p=38026878#p38026878

That was my beef that I had with the current style of play, it's more free and less structured. I said their is really only a few real point guards with true point guards skills. I didn't learn how to play from a book, or learn the positions from dictionary entries. I played, and coached, I know a little something about the game, and the point I was making is Kemba may have played point before, but he blew up in college as a scorer. Anybody can advance the ball up the court, Lebron does it all the time, is he a point guard? No, but imo, he's got more playmaking ability than Kemba.

Kemba is a scorer, point blank period, sorry that my opinion has his devout fans upset, but if you wanna tell me Kemba is a point guard with the same point guard abilities as players like Kenny Anderson, Rod Strickland, Marbury, Mark Jackson, Kevin Johnson, John Stockton, Zeke, Baron Davis, Mike Bibby, Jason Williams or any of the guys I was raised watching or playing against I'll say your sadly mistaken. And for the record, most of those guys averaged close to 20 ppg at some point in their career.

As far as the way the game is changing, it's not the style of play with the point guards, it's the lack of structured offenses, the teams have adapted this Euro ball, Mike Dantoni style of play where the main ball handler improvises and the first open guy shoots after the point guards run off a pick. You dont see PG's call plays at the center court and run a play, you rarely see the last shot taken by a player who goes one on one and breaks down his defender, now, everyone needs a pick and they settle for jump shots and trying to draw a fouls. And what happened to the traditional big man? This is what started this whole convo, instead of teaching big men to play like bigs, big men are playing like perimeter players with little abilities in the paint. Dwight Howard still isnt a proven post player, but he's the best big man in basketball. So, I'm fully aware that the game is changing and why, and it has little to do with teams trying to get PG's to be scorers.

[DY_nasty]

Mullens never did anything efficiently.

wot

but don't let that stop you from dropping blame on zeller for not stepping up when our league leading offense stalls out.

List of Byron Mullens' 'efficient games' of 20+ points w/ Bobcats:

01/12/12 vs ATL - 21 points, 8-16 FG
01/14/12 vs GSW - 20 points, 7-15 FG, 1-1 3P
01/28/12 vs WAS - 23 points, 10-17 FG
03/31/12 vs DET - 20 points, 8-14 FG, 1-3 3P
04/03/12 vs TOR - 20 points, 9-21 FG, 1-2 3P
04/06/12 vs MIL - 31 points, 14-23 FG, 1-4 3P
11/07/12 vs PHO - 24 points, 9-16 FG, 6-10 3P
11/24/12 vs WAS - 27 points, 9-15 FG, 5-11 3P
02/11/13 vs BOS - 25 points, 10-16 FG, 4-5 3P
03/20/13 vs TOR - 25 points, 7-11 FG, 3-4 3P

So you guys want Mullens back? LOL

To say Mullens is worth something as a basketball player, and to actually look up the times when he scored well in spite of consistently terrible impact on the court... Dude is one of the biggest wastes of talent across all sports in a decade.

[JDR720]

Mullens never did anything efficiently.

wot

but don't let that stop you from dropping blame on zeller for not stepping up when our league leading offense stalls out.

List of Byron Mullens' 'efficient games' of 20+ points w/ Bobcats:

01/12/12 vs ATL - 21 points, 8-16 FG
01/14/12 vs GSW - 20 points, 7-15 FG, 1-1 3P
01/28/12 vs WAS - 23 points, 10-17 FG
03/31/12 vs DET - 20 points, 8-14 FG, 1-3 3P
04/03/12 vs TOR - 20 points, 9-21 FG, 1-2 3P
04/06/12 vs MIL - 31 points, 14-23 FG, 1-4 3P
11/07/12 vs PHO - 24 points, 9-16 FG, 6-10 3P
11/24/12 vs WAS - 27 points, 9-15 FG, 5-11 3P
02/11/13 vs BOS - 25 points, 10-16 FG, 4-5 3P
03/20/13 vs TOR - 25 points, 7-11 FG, 3-4 3P

So you guys want Mullens back? LOL

To say Mullens is worth something as a basketball player, and to actually look up the times when he scored well in spite of consistently terrible impact on the court... Dude is one of the biggest wastes of talent across all sports in a decade.

between those good games he would go 2-13 with 7 missed 3's or something horrible like that

[ball teacher]

Ball teacher need to go somewhere in here talking all of that nonsense and getting proven wrong. Is Derek Fisher not a PG? Was Tony Parker not a PG? Come in here talking about Shabazz was the starting PG during UConn's championship year with Kemba and then try to switch it up. Nobody care about your assumptions if you don't know what you're talking about and just spewing out your own irrational opinion.

I said Napier was the PG, I was wrong he wasnt starting, but I wasnt wrrng about him being the point and when he and Walker played together he wasnt the one who moved to the SG slot, it was Kemba. And what does Fisher and Parker have to do with Kemba? If you dont care about my "assumptions" then kindly keep it moving and dont reply. If you know basketball it's clear Kemba has work to do in order to be a elite Point guard with real point guard skills. If you disagree, thats your opinion and your entitled to it, no reason to get overly emotional and take this personal especially when this wasnt even a convo you were involved in.

You back?

What was Napier gonna play, SG? He was 5-11 and Kemba is 6-1. Add on top of that Kemba was the better shooter. That's like saying Deron Williams isn't a PG because he played with Dee Brown. You already admitted to not watching UConn and it's obvious that you didn't if you didn't know who was starting so shut up.

Word? Kemba Walker is 2 inches taller than Shabazz Napier? Check the stats again. And you said Napier cant be the SG cause he's 5'11 (which he isnt) and Kemba is 6'1 (wont go there), then you say it's like saying Deron Williams isn't the PG cause he played with Dee Brown. Problem is, I didnt contradict myself, you contradicted yours. I've never said that a SG cant be shorter than the PG, you did when you stated "what was Napier gonna play, SG? He was 5-11 and Kemba is 6-1" I watched Iverson who was shorter than Eric Snow, I watched Byron Scott who was shorter than magic, I saw Penny run point with Nick Anderson as his shooting guard. So I dont know why you brought that up, and your so confused I'm sure you dont know why you brought it up either. But I'll shut up cause debating with emotional fans of certain individuals is just as bad as arguing with a scorned female, so you also win this one.

[JDR720]

I have to admit this is an entertaining argument

[SWedd523]

I have to admit this is an entertaining argument

I think it's pretty **** stupid

[JDR720]

I have to admit this is an entertaining argument

I think it's pretty **** stupid

thats what makes it great lol

[mrknowitall215]

Mullens never did anything efficiently.

wot

but don't let that stop you from dropping blame on zeller for not stepping up when our league leading offense stalls out.

List of Byron Mullens' 'efficient games' of 20+ points w/ Bobcats:

01/12/12 vs ATL - 21 points, 8-16 FG
01/14/12 vs GSW - 20 points, 7-15 FG, 1-1 3P
01/28/12 vs WAS - 23 points, 10-17 FG
03/31/12 vs DET - 20 points, 8-14 FG, 1-3 3P
04/03/12 vs TOR - 20 points, 9-21 FG, 1-2 3P
04/06/12 vs MIL - 31 points, 14-23 FG, 1-4 3P
11/07/12 vs PHO - 24 points, 9-16 FG, 6-10 3P
11/24/12 vs WAS - 27 points, 9-15 FG, 5-11 3P
02/11/13 vs BOS - 25 points, 10-16 FG, 4-5 3P
03/20/13 vs TOR - 25 points, 7-11 FG, 3-4 3P

So you guys want Mullens back? LOL

To say Mullens is worth something as a basketball player, and to actually look up the times when he scored well in spite of consistently terrible impact on the court... Dude is one of the biggest wastes of talent across all sports in a decade.

I wouldn't dare say that I would like to see Byron Mullens back in Charlotte, but I will say that Mullens was more productive when he was a part of the Bobcats than Cody Zeller has been so far this season with similar inconsistencies, and hopefully that'll change for the better in Zeller's favor as the season goes along. More so, if you ask my opinion, I would like to see less of Zeller until he's ready to play competent enough to deserve consistent minutes. I honestly would rather see Bismack Biyombo, Jeff Adrien, or Anthony Tolliver at the backup PF spot than Zeller at the moment. That's not a knock to say that Zeller will never improve or succeed, but it's obvious that he's just not physically or mentally prepared for the competitiveness of the NBA game

[HornetJail]

Cody will be fine once he puts on the weight. Till then, I don't condone slashing his minutes unless it is in favor of giving Bismack more significant minutes, which he absolutely deserves.

Also, as one of the biggest Mullens apologists on this board (still think he's capable of turning it around), Zeller>Mullens right now and it isn't close. Mullens would have high games like that one against Boston last year, and Milwaukee the previous, but in between he'd be mediocre sometimes, very poor other times, and straight-up Ben Gordon-esque at others. Zeller hasn't had any games in the "Ben Gordon-esque" column, Mullens has like 20 or 30 to his name. Has Zeller been a disappointment at times? Yeah, but even that disappointment is far superior to bad Mullens. I would rather see a skinny Zeller attack the basket and get flattened by a strong athletic defender than see the strong Mullens brick 3 after 3 when he should be taking advantage of a mismatch inside. I really wonder what Clifford would've done with Mullens. He has abilities but hasn't been coached up at all.

[Liver_Pooty]

This board is getting rather frustrating. Arguing Shabazz Napier and Kemba Walker. Lol I mean come on.

[SWedd523]

This board is getting rather frustrating. Arguing Shabazz Napier and Kemba Walker. Lol I mean come on.

No ****. I come back for a couple of weeks excited to catch up on all the sports info I missed out on and instead I click through here and read a **** argument over definition of a PG and whether or not Kemba was one when he was in college.

[LamarMatic7]

Nobody is askinghim to average a double double. But you know...scoring in the teens at least 1 game as a 4th overall pick that was supposed to be a ready to play now player would be nice. Even Mully could drop efficient 20+ point games sometimes. Do you see that kind of potential at ALL when you watch Zeller? it jsut isn't there. He doesn't have the talent to score 20 points in an NBA game. How could he possibly be a starter if he can't score the ball? that was supposed to be his strength, we knew he'd suck on defense and rebounding but not this.

I actually have something to look forward to for my 14-hour shift tomorrow at work. I will check out what are the odds of, let's say, a top10 draft pick to turn into a solid player after at least two years of college and mediocre numbers in the rookie year. I might force basketball-reference's server to break down.

Thanks for sparking my brain.

Good luck 'LamarMatic7'. I tried to do a lookup, but I felt like I was limiting or doing a disservice to Cody Zeller with the names that I came up with

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

Oh my god... That's a terrible list.

[LamarMatic7]

Mullens never did anything efficiently.

wot

but don't let that stop you from dropping blame on zeller for not stepping up when our league leading offense stalls out.

List of Byron Mullens' 'efficient games' of 20+ points w/ Bobcats:

01/12/12 vs ATL - 21 points, 8-16 FG
01/14/12 vs GSW - 20 points, 7-15 FG, 1-1 3P
01/28/12 vs WAS - 23 points, 10-17 FG
03/31/12 vs DET - 20 points, 8-14 FG, 1-3 3P
04/03/12 vs TOR - 20 points, 9-21 FG, 1-2 3P
04/06/12 vs MIL - 31 points, 14-23 FG, 1-4 3P
11/07/12 vs PHO - 24 points, 9-16 FG, 6-10 3P
11/24/12 vs WAS - 27 points, 9-15 FG, 5-11 3P
02/11/13 vs BOS - 25 points, 10-16 FG, 4-5 3P
03/20/13 vs TOR - 25 points, 7-11 FG, 3-4 3P

With all due respect, every NBA player has had his share of good games. I acknowledge that Mullens could have efficient games but that's why he is an NBA player. Everybody in the league is talented and given the opportunity can have a great performance, even the worse players. Take a look at any expansion or tanking team and you'll see guys who never had any business of dropping 20 points doing so just because they got the opportunity to play 30+ minutes.

You can make the good old argument that the only thing Mullens needs is consistency, sure. But isn't that what separates bad players from good players in the NBA? Primoz Brezec had twenty 20-point games, Sean Rooks had twenty three 20+ games and Byron Mullens had them too.

[mrknowitall215]

Mullens never did anything efficiently.

wot

but don't let that stop you from dropping blame on zeller for not stepping up when our league leading offense stalls out.

List of Byron Mullens' 'efficient games' of 20+ points w/ Bobcats:

01/12/12 vs ATL - 21 points, 8-16 FG
01/14/12 vs GSW - 20 points, 7-15 FG, 1-1 3P
01/28/12 vs WAS - 23 points, 10-17 FG
03/31/12 vs DET - 20 points, 8-14 FG, 1-3 3P
04/03/12 vs TOR - 20 points, 9-21 FG, 1-2 3P
04/06/12 vs MIL - 31 points, 14-23 FG, 1-4 3P
11/07/12 vs PHO - 24 points, 9-16 FG, 6-10 3P
11/24/12 vs WAS - 27 points, 9-15 FG, 5-11 3P
02/11/13 vs BOS - 25 points, 10-16 FG, 4-5 3P
03/20/13 vs TOR - 25 points, 7-11 FG, 3-4 3P

With all due respect, every NBA player has had his share of good games. I acknowledge that Mullens could have efficient games but that's why he is an NBA player. Everybody in the league is talented and given the opportunity can have a great performance, even the worse players. Take a look at any expansion or tanking team and you'll see guys who never had any business of dropping 20 points doing so just because they got the opportunity to play 30+ minutes.

You can make the good old argument that the only thing Mullens needs is consistency, sure. But isn't that what separates bad players from good players in the NBA? Primoz Brezec had twenty 20-point games, Sean Rooks had twenty three 20+ games and Byron Mullens had them too.

The list wasn't to praise Byron Mulllens, just to show that he was a more competent scorer when he was a member of the Bobcats than Cody Zeller has been so far, and a efficient response to the previous poster who tried to act like Mullens never had efficient performances of over 20 points. I only depicted the games that Mullens shot well & exceeded 20 points. Mullens had plenty of stinkers in-between, and as we all know I wasn't a fan --- one of the most annoying/frustrating players I've ever witness firsthand

[DY_nasty]

The list wasn't to praise Byron Mulllens, just to show that he was a more competent scorer when he was a member of the Bobcats than Cody Zeller has been so far, and a efficient response to the previous poster who tried to act like Mullens never had efficient performances of over 20 points. I only depicted the games that Mullens shot well & exceeded 20 points. Mullens had plenty of stinkers in-between, and as we all know I wasn't a fan --- one of the most annoying/frustrating players I've ever witness firsthand

Are you serious? Byron Mullens derailed offenses more in one half than Cody has in 30 games. There is point in even comparing the two other than being on "nuh uh" childish crap. Dude sucks. Completely. And he's had every opportunity to improve, shine, and toughen up and he failed utterly when he was in Charlotte while having more support than he'll ever get for the rest of his career.

Versus 30 games.

Come on dude. I swear, this is the trifling mess that makes reading these boards so tiring.

[ball teacher]

This board is getting rather frustrating. Arguing Shabazz Napier and Kemba Walker. Lol I mean come on.

No ****. I come back for a couple of weeks excited to catch up on all the sports info I missed out on and instead I click through here and read a **** argument over definition of a PG and whether or not Kemba was one when he was in college.

Kemba and his abilities as a PG is a "**** argument" but Mullens play for 20 or 30 games last year is not?

[SWedd523]

This board is getting rather frustrating. Arguing Shabazz Napier and Kemba Walker. Lol I mean come on.

No ****. I come back for a couple of weeks excited to catch up on all the sports info I missed out on and instead I click through here and read a **** argument over definition of a PG and whether or not Kemba was one when he was in college.

Kemba and his abilities as a PG is a "**** argument" but Mullens play for 20 or 30 games last year is not?

I don't give two **** either way, but Mullens isn't even on the team anymore so I don't know why his play last year has any bearing whatsoever on the team as it is currently constructed.

[mrknowitall215]

[fatlever]

give me zeller over mullens any day. mullens is an idiot and the worst defender i have ever seen.

as for the pg argument, there is no doubt that the role of the pg has changed over the past 10 years. the hand check rules freed up guards to become primary offensive weapons, more so than compared to years past. there are very few traditional past first pgs that start. most pgs now are hybrids that can score, handle and pass. offenses now are more complicated than they were 10+ years ago as well and these complicated offenses required several passers and ball handlers (as well as lots of spacing). gone are the days when you could stick the ball in the hands of your pg and he held it for 20 seconds and gone are the days of teams pounding the ball into the low post and gone are the days when the stockton and malone could run the same pick and roll 50 times in the same game. also, thankfully, gone are the days of the pure isolation offenses from the late 90s early 00s. defenses are too smart for those one dimensional offenses.

kemba is a scorer 1st and foremost. im not sure anyone could really argue that point. however, he is still a point guard, by current definitions.

regardless, people put too much emphasis on positions anyway, especially on offense. positions are really about who you can guard more than anything. back in the 70s half the teams just had "guards". both guys could handle and pass and both guys could score. the 80s really saw the rise of the pure, playmaking pgs. the 90s saw less of that as more teams went defensive and would opt for big defenders at pg. now we are in the era of scoring pgs.

as for kemba, he needs to score. he needs to look to shoot because we need his offense. however, he needs to take better shots and find ways to score efficiently on a consistent basis. also, he needs to spend more time in the 1st quarter making sure others get their shots and not really look for his offense until the others are rolling. in the 4th, i dont care if he takes every shot unless jefferson has a nice matchup in the post.

i dont like it when i see kemba settle for a long 2 coming off a pick in the first few minutes of a game. to me that is always a bad sign.

carry on