Alex Anthopoulos on thin ice: Griffin

[C Court]

my opinion about colangelo gradually changed over a 4 year span. your opinion about AA changed in less than a year. there's a significant difference there.

Come on. That's preposterous to say your change of opinion is 'valid' because it was gradual over a four year period, while mine isn't because I drew my conclusion more quickly.

First, I can find quotes (see above) which prove your change of opinion with BC was not a long drawn out four year period. Second, it is completely irrelevant that your 'a-ha' moment came over many years, while mine occurred in less than a year.

Talk about a straw man.

[C Court]

nor do i call him boy blunder or question his baseball acumen after reading a book.

See, you're making stuff up. I called Alex those things before I read the book - which interestingly the rest of this board is afraid to read because it says things about Alex that don't match your narrative.

Like the conflict between Farrell and Alex. When you read what actually transpired, you see two sides to the story. As many here posted in my thread with the book excerpt - they more sided with Farrell than Alex.

BTW, didn't you support the hiring of Farrell?

[s e n s i]

nor do i call him boy blunder or question his baseball acumen after reading a book.

See, you're making stuff up. I called Alex those things before I read the book - which interestingly the rest of this board is afraid to read because it says things about Alex that don't match your narrative.

or they just have no desire to relive one of the worst seasons in jays history for fans

BTW, didn't you support the hiring of Farrell?

i can't say i had any sort of opinion about the hire. i could be wrong though, so feel free to waste more of your time looking up old posts of mine. i did however rejoice when it was learned that EE was claimed off waivers 3 years ago. boy was i wrong about him!

[C Court]

Question?

While you were taking four years+ to decide that Colangelo needed to be fired, guys like Waylon and Randle were calling for his firing after only a year or two.

Were they wrong?

[C Court]

it sure is annoying, and especially so considering Centre Court had supported AA last offseason

You know it's really hilarious when someone slams John Gibbons the day he was fired....

s e n s i wrote:
I know that Gaston had 6 all stars on each of his world series teams, but he really is a good coach, much better than frickin Gibbons thats for sure. It seemed like the players didnt really give a **** about Gibbons, and Gaston is someone they have no choice but to respect and to listen to.

... and then praises the same John Gibbons the day he is re-hired.

s e n s i wrote:
i am completely fine with this hire, if not pleased. aside from the quarrels with players, he was never really a bad manager at all. this team will play for him.

... and then continues to take shots at me for changing my opinion of AA.

[s e n s i]

Question?

While you were taking four years+ to decide that Colangelo needed to be fired, guys like Waylon and Randle were calling for his firing after only a year or two.

Were they wrong?

no, randle was ultimately right. and was probably right all along. difference there is, he never praised BC's moves like you did with AA

it sure is annoying, and especially so considering Centre Court had supported AA last offseason

You know it's really hilarious when someone slams John Gibbons the day he was fired....

s e n s i wrote:
I know that Gaston had 6 all stars on each of his world series teams, but he really is a good coach, much better than frickin Gibbons thats for sure. It seemed like the players didnt really give a **** about Gibbons, and Gaston is someone they have no choice but to respect and to listen to.

... and then praises the same John Gibbons the day he is re-hired.

s e n s i wrote:
i am completely fine with this hire, if not pleased. aside from the quarrels with players, he was never really a bad manager at all. this team will play for him.

... and then continues to take shots at me for changing my opinion of AA.

i was called out on this before, so i'll just copy and paste my response and hope it's sufficient for you

i really, sincerely thought cito used to be an amazing manager. this is simply because i was 9 years old the last time he was jays manager in his first tenure, and i had absolutely no clue about the nuances of managerial strategy and particularly bullpen management, platooning etc. i just knew that cito was our coach when we won the W/S. i also thought a manager made a huge difference in the W/L column. but you know, after educating myself further so i wouldn't be ridiculed by posters who've watched this game longer than i have, thus be able to contribute with strong argumentation, and after watching cito and farrell do pretty mediocre jobs the past 4 years, i've come to the realization over the past couple years that gibbons was actually a pretty good manager and was unjustly scapegoated by his buddy in what was ultimately a PR move.

i also thought jose bautista was a scrub at one point. and that EE was a scrub. people's opinions are subject to change based on performance of said player/coach/GM over a period of time (in this case above, 5 years)

in your case, your opinion changed drastically, in well less than a year (a month actually), about a team that was unchanged for that time period

you went from GREAT JOB AA last december to AA is horrible, isn't a natural baseball guy, just a fantasy league GM, after ONE month of regular season baseball (viewtopic.php?f=123&t=1248605&start=150). give me a break. that's not just ridiculous, that's bipolar.

[Schad]

To clarify, here is more info on Mozeliak and Luhnow. Both have more experience and arguably a stronger track record than AA. While they learned the game in the Cardinals organization, AA was groomed by JP Riccardi.

My point wasn't experience, it was that 'natural baseball men' can come from a variety of places. Neither Mozelak nor Luhnow were groomed for it, neither appears to have set out with the intent of being player operations people...they fell into it and turned out to be very good.

But if you want to talk experience, Andrew Freidman was working in baseball for two years when he was named GM. He's arguably the best in the business. Anthopolous had been with the Jays for seven years when he was hired, and had been with the Expos previous to that.

[Griff83]

Stop putting words in my mouth - "natural baseball mind" is your phrase, not mine.

natural baseball mind/natural baseball guy, it's the same thing. that's all you though. let me know if you need a link to that thread

But chances are a GM in any sport with a keen understanding of the game and an eye for talent is going to be more successful than one who does not have those traits.

i think this goes without saying. but then again how do you assemble the best farm system in all of baseball and then the odds-on favourite to win the WS the ensuing offseason without having those traits?

So lets stop with the "you supported him then" straw man. It is intellectually dishonest and plain stupid.

Unless of course, you guys are prepared to take back all your criticisms of Colangelo, after you initially supported his hiring and his early success as the Raptors GM and then led the calls for his firing.

i did support colangelo, when most of the moves he made i agreed with. when moves i didn't agree with began piling up, as did the losses, and it was clear his end game was an 8th-seed, that's when i stopped supporting him and called for his firing. there's quite a difference between that and what you're doing, flip-flopping from "great move!! go jays!!" to "boy blunder should be fired!!" after one injury-riddled underperforming season

The Jays never had the #1 farm system.
Always ranked in the top 5 and many lists top 3 but it really varied but they never had the best farm system.

Alot of the prospects that also headlined those lists stock has come down (Darnaud, Sanchez, Nicolino, Hutchison (injury related), Gose).

[Santoki]

To clarify, here is more info on Mozeliak and Luhnow. Both have more experience and arguably a stronger track record than AA. While they learned the game in the Cardinals organization, AA was groomed by JP Riccardi.

My point wasn't experience, it was that 'natural baseball men' can come from a variety of places. Neither Mozelak nor Luhnow were groomed for it, neither appears to have set out with the intent of being player operations people...they fell into it and turned out to be very good.

But if you want to talk experience, Andrew Freidman was working in baseball for two years when he was named GM. He's arguably the best in the business. Anthopolous had been with the Jays for seven years when he was hired, and had been with the Expos previous to that.

Schadenfreude once again the voice of reason.

[Yosemite Dan]

Who gives a crap about AA's pedigree. I wouldn't care if AA has never watched a baseball game in one sitting or whether he is the illegitimate great grandson of Casey Stengel. You are what your record says you are. And if the Jays stink this year like they stunk last year then see ya later. Nobody deserves to be a GM for any team after doing it for 5 years and having nothing to show for it. The best before date of excuses for underperforming has officially expired.

[Hendrix]

I haven't been by the Jays board in a while. Kind of surprised to see this article put out in all honesty.

Baseball's a funny game. The way I see it, you put together a team, and they can land anywhere between x and y wins, depending on how the baseball Gods feel. Some years guys hit a high %, other years everyone's hurt. I think AA put together a very strong team last year that just happened to have anything and everything go wrong.

Look at Boston. They go from 69 wins to a world series with a team that is pretty similar.

[Komodo]

I find it curious how there's so many AA supporters in here. It kind of reminds me of Colangelo. Is AA safe as long as Beeston is around? It's been such a poor off-season so far.

[jaymeister15]

I find it curious how there's so many AA supporters in here. It kind of reminds me of Colangelo. Is AA safe as long as Beeston is around? It's been such a poor off-season so far.

What's so curious about it? The team sucked last year, but that doesn't mean everyone should go back and pretend they weren't happy with AAs moves in the offseason (or his job in building up the farm system in previous years). On paper, the team was one of the favourites to win the world series (based on "experts" predicitions and Vegas odds)...which is all a GM can really do, from there it's up to the players. It didn't pan out due to poor performances and injuries, which sucks, but I'm not going to blame AA for it.

When exactly did BC build a team that was predicted to win anything other than the lottery?