2013-14 German Bundesliga Thread: Bayern Champs Again

[Ted Lasso]

Now to be honest there like what 5 or less clubs in the world that aren't selling clubs and thats a generous number too.

I'd say Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea.

With exceptions such as Figo, Ronaldo, and Ballack (Bosman, i know) granted, of course.

[Ted Lasso]

This is quite funny, because I am not sure what the reporter is expecting. There are only three clubs in the whole world which can challenge Bayern in finances and prestige, which are Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona.

Scoffing at the statement doesn't diminish its implications though.

I disagree with you about Man Utd, by the way. City and Chelsea have pretty clearly bought their way to equal status and rotation of success, and they are there to stay. So between the three nations with credible claims to fielding the strongest league in Europe, only Germany lacks genuine rivalry at the top, because Bayern are their lone permanent giant.

In fairness, amid the dismissive tone of the last two posts from yourself and Grant, i am reading an admission to as much. But that's a problem for the image of a league clearly aspiring to become more attractive. Imagine the reaction from around Europe if Real Madrid signed Iniesta and then Neymar from Barcelona in consecutive summers.

[MaliBrah]

Now to be honest there like what 5 or less clubs in the world that aren't selling clubs and thats a generous number too.

I'd say Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea.

With exceptions such as Figo, Ronaldo, and Ballack (Bosman, i know) granted, of course.

yeah thats pretty much it really.

[Maex]

This is quite funny, because I am not sure what the reporter is expecting. There are only three clubs in the whole world which can challenge Bayern in finances and prestige, which are Manchester United, Real Madrid and Barcelona.

Scoffing at the statement doesn't diminish its implications though.

I disagree with you about Man Utd, by the way. City and Chelsea have pretty clearly bought their way to equal status and rotation of success, and they are there to stay. So between the three nations with credible claims to fielding the strongest league in Europe, only Germany lacks genuine rivalry at the top, because Bayern are their lone permanent giant.

In fairness, amid the dismissive tone of the last two posts from yourself and Grant, i am reading an admission to as much. But that's a problem for the image of a league clearly aspiring to become more attractive. Imagine the reaction from around Europe if Real Madrid signed Iniesta and then Neymar from Barcelona in consecutive summers.

I am sorry if you feel that my tone was dismissive, which wasn't my intention. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Both, City and Chelsea have done a quite good job, but both a heavily relying on external finances, which I didn't consider as reliable source of long-term income.

In fact, if you only take the club generated income/revenue, you'll see that Dortmund and Chelsea are quite equal and City should be lacking behind. They are way behind Bayern, Barcelona, Real and United. The next Deloitte money league should reveal that.

And I am not so sure of the admission part. My team just was part of two consecutive Champions League finals, while winning one. Additional they have arguable the best squad in Europe and are consider as one of the favorites to win the CL again.

Of course everyone likes to have an attractive domestic league. But I wouldn't change with Manchester United therefore...

[Effercon]

Now to be honest there like what 5 or less clubs in the world that aren't selling clubs and thats a generous number too.

I'd say Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea.

With exceptions such as Figo, Ronaldo, and Ballack (Bosman, i know) granted, of course.

PSG?
Monaco?
Juve?

[cgf]

Between how consistently we pump out new young stars, just look at how teenagers like Arnold, Meyer and Werner have started to break through, and how so many of the "big" BuLi teams are getting out of their financial quagmires, I really don't see this Bayern domination lasting any longer than previous iterations that foreigners worried would kill our league, well 50 years on and Bayern still haven't killed the league. But they're up now so journos gotta talk about it, funny that when Bayern's financial dominance was even more pronounced nobody mentioned it since Dortmund was still kicking their ass for the salad bowls. Next season after Dortmund stock up their depth, these articles will disappear again, like they always do.

[cgf]

Now to be honest there like what 5 or less clubs in the world that aren't selling clubs and thats a generous number too.

I'd say Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, and Chelsea.

With exceptions such as Figo, Ronaldo, and Ballack (Bosman, i know) granted, of course.

PSG?
Monaco?
Juve?

Juve and Monaco aren't of that tier, hell I'd put Dortmund and arsenal ahead of them when it comes to drawing power and the ability to hold onto talent.

The German taxpayer supported Real Madrid and Barcelona are the only teams in the world that are really comparable to Bayern, and unlike Bayern their finances are too sad to be called a joke. After that you've got United, Citeh, PSG, Arsenal, Chelsea, Dortmund, Juve, Monaco

[DD12]

Is there any rivalry in the world where one of those rivalries was forced to sell its BEST players to the other team within two years?

I don't know any. Therefore, all the German teams are just Bayern Munich's youth team. They raised the kids, kids become sensational players, then big boss Bayern says come to our team and the players just join into Bayern. It is sad though. I wish there is a competitive football in every league but Bundesliga has become a league where one team will run the league for minimum 3-5 years from now on.

[Ted Lasso]

PSG?
Monaco?

Too early to say. While it does look as though they have enough money to stand their ground and let an asset rot the way City and Chelsea can and have, it may well turn out that the French League is just too small.

The Ancelotti thing didn't help either.

Juve?

We'll find out in a season or two with Pogba and, if he remains attractive enough, Vidal. My guess is they'll end up selling Pogba.

[Maex]

Therefore, all the German teams are just Bayern Munich's youth team.

So basically, Bayern Munich had two teams in the Champions League final

[Foye]

I find this discussion on here quite amusing to be honest.

Look at Juve's roster and you know they are no stranger to buying every Serie A player that can run on a straight line.
Buffon, Chiellini, Ogbonna, Bonucci, Lichtsteiner, Pirlo, Asamoah, Pepe, Vucinic, Giovinco, Quagliarella, Isla, Padoin, de Ceglie, Peluso and Motta.
Same with Manchester United.

Look at Bayern. They have Neuer, Dante, Götze, Lewandowski, Mandzukic, Pizarro, Starke and van Buyten.

Certainly not a large amount of players compared to Juve and United and Bayern have paid market value for everyone of these players but Lewa who is coming for free.

Bayern paid 35 mil. € for Gomez (something no foreign club would've ever done at that time).
Bayern paid 30+ mil. € for Neuer.
Bayern paid 13 mil. € for Mandzukic.
Bayern paid the release clauses for Götze and Dante.

In case of Dante, Mandzukic, Gomez and Luiz Gustavo no foreign top club was even interested in these players IIRC.

Götze is born in Bavaria and a childhood Bayern fan, Neuer has a Bavarian girlfriend.
The only real head scratcher is why Lewandowski decided to go to Bayern. Then again you can't blame a player wanting to play for the best team in the world. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity and he has decided to take it. So IDK why everyone is complaining about it.

While I would've liked to see Götze and Lewandowski staying in Dortmund. It's better for the Bundesliga if these star players stay in the league rather than joining an EPL or PD team. The more star players we have in the league the easier it will be even for low table teams to generate income. And it will lead to a higher tv deal.

Bayern might be the dominant force at the moment but Dortmund will surely be back with the money they made in recent seasons. Schalke, Gladbach, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg have done a good job of strengthening their squads recently and will continue to improve in the few next years.

I don't see the Bundesliga as a 1 horse race. Even if Bayern wins the next 5 titles in a row, Schalke, Gladbach, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Dortmund will make a lot of noise in Europe. If not this season then in two or three years at latest.

[Ted Lasso]

I find this discussion on here quite amusing to be honest.

Look at Juve's roster and you know they are no stranger to buying every Serie A player that can run on a straight line.
Buffon, Chiellini, Ogbonna, Bonucci, Lichtsteiner, Pirlo, Asamoah, Pepe, Vucinic, Giovinco, Quagliarella, Isla, Padoin, de Ceglie, Peluso and Motta.
Same with Manchester United.

Look at Bayern. They have Neuer, Dante, Götze, Lewandowski, Mandzukic, Pizarro, Starke and van Buyten.

Certainly not a large amount of players compared to Juve and United and Bayern have paid market value for everyone of these players but Lewa who is coming for free.

Bayern paid 35 mil. € for Gomez (something no foreign club would've ever done at that time).
Bayern paid 30+ mil. € for Neuer.
Bayern paid 13 mil. € for Mandzukic.
Bayern paid the release clauses for Götze and Dante.

In case of Dante, Mandzukic, Gomez and Luiz Gustavo no foreign top club was even interested in these players IIRC.

Götze is born in Bavaria and a childhood Bayern fan, Neuer has a Bavarian girlfriend.
The only real head scratcher is why Lewandowski decided to go to Bayern. Then again you can't blame a player wanting to play for the best team in the world. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity and he has decided to take it. So IDK why everyone is complaining about it.

While I would've liked to see Götze and Lewandowski staying in Dortmund. It's better for the Bundesliga if these star players stay in the league rather than joining an EPL or PD team. The more star players we have in the league the easier it will be even for low table teams to generate income. And it will lead to a higher tv deal.

Bayern might be the dominant force at the moment but Dortmund will surely be back with the money they made in recent seasons. Schalke, Gladbach, Leverkusen and Wolfsburg have done a good job of strengthening their squads recently and will continue to improve in the few next years.

I don't see the Bundesliga as a 1 horse race. Even if Bayern wins the next 5 titles in a row, Schalke, Gladbach, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Dortmund will make a lot of noise in Europe. If not this season then in two or three years at latest.

The biggest teams in a country buy the smaller teams' best players all around Europe. The distinction is Bayern are well alone at the top of the food chain. Manchester United don't have a 90% chance of holding off national competition to sign a player they're interested in the way Bayern do. There is a Ramsey and a Hazard for every Zaha.

I'm not even a proponent of institutionalized parity, but you do have to have genuine rivalries (in terms of both results and allure) at the top or your league won't seem interesting to people, which is all we're saying.

Well, it's all i'm saying. I don't care about the allegation that Bayern intentionally sign players they won't really use to block the improvement of the 2nd level of teams.

[Maex]

The biggest teams in a country buy the smaller teams' best players all around Europe. The distinction is Bayern are well alone at the top of the food chain. Manchester United don't have a 90% chance of holding off national competition to sign a player they're interested in the way Bayern do. There is a Ramsey and a Hazard for every Zaha.

I'm not even a proponent of institutionalized parity, but you do have to have genuine rivalries (in terms of both results and allure) at the top or your league won't seem interesting to people, which is all we're saying.

Well, it's all i'm saying. I don't care about the allegation that Bayern intentionally sign players they won't really use to block the improvement of the 2nd level of teams.

What a lot of people don't understand in this regard is, that the situation in Germany is actually getting better. Since Dortmund failed in 2002 Bayern was at the top of the food chain, without any proper competition. Bayern was the only Bundesliga team which could be considered as a international competitive team from 2003-2011. They could literally choose any talent they wanted.

Nowadays the Bundesliga had two teams in the finals and the Champions League winner. For the first time ever, four Bundesliga teams advanced from the Champions League Group stage. Talents like Reus, Goretzka, Bender and Gündogan choose other teams while having confirmed offers from Bayern Munich.

I see what people say when they are praying for parity, but the situation in the Bundesliga got better not worse.

Even as a local Bayern fan, I don't understand how people can sleep on Schalke and Dortmund. They are in a transitional phase (even though Dortmund with unexpected success), after a decade of financial disaster. Both teams haven't adapted to the new situation yet (without major debt and loaded with cash). But both of them have already a great structural and financial base for success and are loaded with crazy talent (example players 25 or below: Reus, Gündogan, Maier, Goretzka, Aubameyang, Mkhitaryan, Sahin, Bender, Hummels, Subotic, Draxler, Kirchhoff, Matip, Papadopoulos, Höwedes).

People who follow those teams would understand their situation and see the tremendous progress they are making. And even though they are loosing some of their talents now, you can expect that to change rather quickly and see them compete internationally more often than not.

Maybe that explains a bit why the regular Bundesliga fans are quite surprised/amused by the drama.

[cgf]

Wish I could and-2 that post. Bayern are at a level they haven't been in decades, but the rest of the league is trending upwards much faster than they have since reunification. Dortmund are now free to spend the money they make. Schalke are almost out from their debts with a strong team and a few of the most talented teenagers in the world, Gladbach are in strong financial shape with a wave of young talent nearing breaking through like Hrgota, Younes, Dahoud and Kurt. With money about to come in for MAtS, LdJ and maybe Herrmann and them sniffing around Schär, Sommer/Baumann/Trapp, and some other exciting young attackers. Leverkusen are a real #10 and depth away, and Wolfsburg finally have competent management to use their big bucks.

The BuLi hasn't been this strong behind Bayern this century.

[Ted Lasso]

I am going to post a short response because - much like the David Luiz debate - i don't care all that much and i am losing interest (and i say that with all due respect), but you guys are failing to acknowledge the fact that Bayern have taken advantage of the recent fiscal and talent boost of German football just as much as the field. So the sea has risen and the Bundesliga is stronger, but the gap between Bayern and the rest in terms of talent and appeal is just as wide as ever.

It's classic Bundesliga pattern of the last 10-20 years that a team challenges them for a year or two, wins a title, and then Bayern puts them back in their place. And while i agree with you guys about the progress that Dortmund has made, the stuff about Schalke, Leverkusen, Gladbach and anyone else is hopeful and premature at best. I'll take 2nd place Bundesliga side Leverkusen seriously once they prove to belong on the same football pitch as Manchester United.

[Maex]

I am going to post a short response because - much like the David Luiz debate - i don't care all that much and i am losing interest (and i say that with all due respect), but you guys are failing to acknowledge the fact that Bayern have taken advantage of the recent fiscal and talent boost of German football just as much as the field. So the sea has risen and the Bundesliga is stronger, but the gap between Bayern and the rest in terms of talent and appeal is just as wide as ever.

It's classic Bundesliga pattern of the last 10-20 years that a team challenges them for a year or two, wins a title, and then Bayern puts them back in their place. And while i agree with you guys about the progress that Dortmund has made, the stuff about Schalke, Leverkusen, Gladbach and anyone else is hopeful and premature at best. I'll take 2nd place Bundesliga side Leverkusen seriously once they prove to belong on the same football pitch as Manchester United.

I will reply you with all the given respect and try to keep it short and simple. Leverkusen has a limited budget, limited growth potential and a "low" revenue.

Dortmund and Schalke should be in the Deloitte Money League top 10 as of next season - in the same revenue area as Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Juventus (behind Bayern, Barca, Real, United, Chelsea) but with the fraction of the spending of those clubs. They just started to increase their spendings.

[cgf]

I am going to post a short response because - much like the David Luiz debate - i don't care all that much and i am losing interest (and i say that with all due respect), but you guys are failing to acknowledge the fact that Bayern have taken advantage of the recent fiscal and talent boost of German football just as much as the field. So the sea has risen and the Bundesliga is stronger, but the gap between Bayern and the rest in terms of talent and appeal is just as wide as ever.

It's classic Bundesliga pattern of the last 10-20 years that a team challenges them for a year or two, wins a title, and then Bayern puts them back in their place. And while i agree with you guys about the progress that Dortmund has made, the stuff about Schalke, Leverkusen, Gladbach and anyone else is hopeful and premature at best. I'll take 2nd place Bundesliga side Leverkusen seriously once they prove to belong on the same football pitch as Manchester United.

*shrug* Schalke humiliated Arsenal in the CL last season, Leverkusen, despite how horribly naive they were against united managed to get out of a tough group this year, Dortmund went to the final of the CL and if they have a good summer Gladbach will be a dangerous team in the knockouts next year. Bayern have been improving but they have neither widened the gap, nor are the take advantage of the german talent more than those other big teams who are beating Bayern to all of the promising young talent like Reus, Ilkay Goretzka, the benders, Meyer, Brandt, etc.

I just think you have a misunderstanding of the state of the buli over the noughts. Bayern's gap was much bigger in 2003 than it is now, now there's not just 1 top contender who can play with bayern, there's another 4 teams who are of legit CL knockout caliber, a decade ago bayern where the only team who could make that claim. But this people talk about this every time Bayern have a great season, regardless of the fact that the chasing teams are much stronger and closer to bayern than they've been since before internet streaming was a thing.

[magik9113]

obviously I had to chime in about Juve...
They are the only team in Italy that holds on to players. The only reason I can imagine that one would say they don't attract "power" is because they don't make the highest profile signings and overspend on big names. Also the fluke that saw them out of CL has everyone thinking they are lesser than the likes of PSG, Dortmund, Arsenal..which they are not.

They just got Tevez and Llorente, who are killing it this season. They have 4 of the best center mids in the world. They have best goalie in the world. Italy's 4 best center backs. None of these players are going to leave any time soon and Vidal/Pogba just signed extensions.

Kinda like Foye said, they are the team in Italy that will buy the lesser clubs talent. but in terms of spending they are lesser than all other big clubs from around the world, look at the bargains they managed:
Pirlo, Llorente, Pogba: FREE transfers
Vidal: 12.5million euro
Tevez: 9m euro
Barzagli: 500thousand euro
Lichtsteiner: 9m euro
that is more than half of the starting lineup for 31million only

[DD12]

I find this discussion on here quite amusing to be honest.

Look at Juve's roster and you know they are no stranger to buying every Serie A player that can run on a straight line.

I don't think Juventus were/are able to force Milan's or Inter's players to come to their team. Milan wasn't forced(by players and how strong Juve is) to sell its best players to Juve. They didn't sell Balotelli and Thiago Silva to Juve. Those players never said I wanna go to Juve.

Inter Milan is the same. Cambiasso never said he wants to go to Juventus nor the club was being forced to sell him to Juventus. Or whoever is their second best player in that team.

You can't compare Bayern Munich with other teams in the world. You can't even give me one example where there is a rivalry and one of the rival team "had" to and being "forced" to sell its own players to the rival team.

Do you think Manu can get Hazard and Oscar within two years from Chelsea while Chelsea won even Premier League a year before? No way.

You think Barcelona can get C. Ronaldo and Bale from Real Madrid? No way.

But in Germany, Dortmund players literally forced their club to sell them to Bayern Munich. Even one of them announced that his demand is to go Bayern a year ago. If not, he will sign extension and he will go to Bayern anyway. If he was playing for Stuttgart or Hamburg, I would say it happens so what? But his team played CL final and won the Bundesliga a year ago. But he still wants to go to Bayern just like that. Even this example shows how Bayern is dominating the whole league. No matter how successful the club is. No matter what players see it there is ONLY ONE team.

[magik9113]

Well said. None of the big players will be traded between Inter/Milan/Juve. Even Napoli should be included. Only times this is possible is with players like Matri, Muntari, Pazzini, who are not starters; or special considerations like Campagnaro following Mazzarri to Inter