RealGM TnT Board Top 25 Most Valuable Players - Vote for #12

[Soulyss]

Vote: Lillard
Nominate: Parker

[the_process]

V: Drummond
N: Bosh

[zapatasblood]

I just see how Irving drops so far. Still young and has loads of potential. And just can see how Westbrook who has had to knee surgeries on the same knee in one year is rank in the top ten
V: Irving

N: Tony Parker

[Trader_Joe]

V: Griffin
Agree with HW here. Very underrated player because people don't like his personality (including me). But he's excellent offensively and very good on the glass. His D has also improved markedly. Young, locked in and marketable. Easy choice IMO.

N: Beal

[HartfordWhalers]

V: Griffin
Agree with HW here. Very underrated player because people don't like his personality (including me). But he's excellent offensively and very good on the glass. His D has also improved markedly. Young, locked in and marketable. Easy choice IMO.

N: Beal

Beal has fat brothers while Klay doesn't.

[Texas Chuck]

V Drummond. Sorry boys you can't sell me on Blake yet.
N TP

[HartfordWhalers]

V Drummond. Sorry boys you can't sell me on Blake yet.
N TP

Per game stats: 22ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.2apg. 21.7 PER 57.3% TS. 16th highest per in the league, 14th highest ws/48 in the league.
Age: 24.

How bad do you think his defense is that he is not already massively underrated?

NBA has Opponent fga fgm and fg% at rim:
Andre Drummond (DET) 3.9 8.1 48.3%
Chris Bosh (MIA) 3.7 6.9 53.9%
Marc Gasol (MEM) 3.5 6.5 54.1%
Blake Griffin (LAC) 3.2 6.0 54.2%
Kevin Love (MIN) 5.2 8.9 58.5%

Which maybe looks like it makes a case for Drummond being an outlier. And Love. But at the rim is just a (small) area of defense. We don't talk about Deandre Jordan being an offensive juggernaut for the same reason.

82games has overall opponent per at pf 16.7 for Griffin.
82games has overall opponent per at center 20.0 for Drummond

Synnergy Defensive stats:
Griffin: Overall .89 ppp (357 attempts), post ups .81 (113 attempts), spot ups .91 ppp (132 attempts)
Drummond: Overall .86 ppp (257 attempts) post ups .80 (109 attempts), spot ups .93 ppp (68 attempts)

So, very similar numbers.

Last year's RAPM:
Blake Griffin 3.1 Off 1.4 Def 4.5 Total (18th highest in the league)
Andre Drummond 0.6 Off 1.3 Def 1.9 Total

Yes, RAPM had Griffin having more of a defensive impact.

General On/Off's this year:
Griffin:
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
111.0 On 108.2 Off +2.8 Net
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
104.8 On 105.9 Off -1.1 Net
Points per 100 Possessions
+6.2 On, +2.3 Off, +3.9 Net

Drummond:
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
105.3 On, 107.6 Off -2.3 Net
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
111.0 On, 104.6 Off, +6.4 Net
Net Points per 100 Possessions
-5.7 On, +3.0 Off, -8.7 Net

Yes, the defense is way worse with Drummond on the court. But even if you blame that on some sort of coaching boondoggle, what you see is the impact of Drummond on defense is found to not exist on aggregate to a significant degree, despite his highlight ability -- not in synergy stats, not in rapm.

And Blake is just massively more of an impact player. And signed for 5 years.

I get that everyone likes to be stat savvy and not just fall for flash. But that is just what is happening with Drummond. And the opposite is happening with Blake, where his impact is being ignored or at the very least massively under-rated.


Or in short, you are wrong and will rethink your position.

[yeehee]

Vote: Cousins
Nominate: Wade

[Texas Chuck]

Or in short, you are wrong and will rethink your position.

I think you are overlooking the level of stubbornness I am capable of.....

Also I dont think Drummond is a better player than Blake at this point. Nor do I think hardly anybody thinks that. I would however trade more for Drummond than I would for Blake. Incorrectly? Maybe.

edit: Also thanks for an even better sig courtesy of you. I appropriately removed the smilie.

[HartfordWhalers]

Or in short, you are wrong and will rethink your position.

I think you are overlooking the level of stubbornness I am capable of.....

Also I dont think Drummond is a better player than Blake at this point. Nor do I think hardly anybody thinks that. I would however trade more for Drummond than I would for Blake. Incorrectly? Maybe.

edit: Also thanks for an even better sig courtesy of you. I appropriately removed the smilie.

Boo. The other one was better. (Once again you are incorrect.)


Edit: And carrying it on, if Blake is the better player clearly, then even if you think Drummond would be the better one to trade for, won't there be several people who think Blake is? And will be willing to offer more for Blake then you offer for Drummond? I mean, I'm just not totally convinced in Westbrook as a component of a team, and would be a really low offer for him personally compared to most, but I know that the offers for him would be quite good....

[lewdog]

If Lillard is nominated how is Jrue Holiday not nominated? Holiday > Lillard

Basically Lillard's rookie contract, being the reining ROY and his team having the third best record in the league are probably the overiding factors.

Vote - Lillard
Nominate - Ibaka

[batumall]

V: Lillard
N: Batum

[Mykhyn]

Or in short, you are wrong and will rethink your position.

I think you are overlooking the level of stubbornness I am capable of.....

Also I dont think Drummond is a better player than Blake at this point. Nor do I think hardly anybody thinks that. I would however trade more for Drummond than I would for Blake. Incorrectly? Maybe.

edit: Also thanks for an even better sig courtesy of you. I appropriately removed the smilie.

Boo. The other one was better. (Once again you are incorrect.)


Edit: And carrying it on, if Blake is the better player clearly, then even if you think Drummond would be the better one to trade for, won't there be several people who think Blake is? And will be willing to offer more for Blake then you offer for Drummond? I mean, I'm just not totally convinced in Westbrook as a component of a team, and would be a really low offer for him personally compared to most, but I know that the offers for him would be quite good....

It seems like you're not valuing Drummond's rookie contract or the fact that he's under team control for 6 years. Blake is paid much more and only under team control for 4 years.

This isn't whos the better player. It's who has more trade value. That means contracts, health, etc all come in to consideration

[Texas Chuck]

Edit: And carrying it on, if Blake is the better player clearly, then even if you think Drummond would be the better one to trade for, won't there be several people who think Blake is? And will be willing to offer more for Blake then you offer for Drummond? .

Because I think he represents better value. Blake has the advantage over most veterans because he's locked in, but Drummond is locked in as well, at at less than half the cost over that same 5 year period. Which is important in building a team around them. I think Drummond will be an elite defensive anchor in the near future especially if the Detroit FO does a better job of building around him.

Now some franchises would almost certainly give more for Blake because they would be looking for the gate, but most teams arent in that position and can attempt to acquire the best team they can. I just see Drummond as being a better piece to a champion than Blake--because I think Blake's game has too many holes especially for a max player.

And yes Im probably wrong

Spoiler:

Font intentional

edit: and my pony is slow as cklmbk covered a lot of it

[HartfordWhalers]

I think you are overlooking the level of stubbornness I am capable of.....

Also I dont think Drummond is a better player than Blake at this point. Nor do I think hardly anybody thinks that. I would however trade more for Drummond than I would for Blake. Incorrectly? Maybe.

edit: Also thanks for an even better sig courtesy of you. I appropriately removed the smilie.

Boo. The other one was better. (Once again you are incorrect.)


Edit: And carrying it on, if Blake is the better player clearly, then even if you think Drummond would be the better one to trade for, won't there be several people who think Blake is? And will be willing to offer more for Blake then you offer for Drummond? I mean, I'm just not totally convinced in Westbrook as a component of a team, and would be a really low offer for him personally compared to most, but I know that the offers for him would be quite good....

It seems like you're not valuing Drummond's rookie contract or the fact that he's under team control for 6 years. Blake is paid much more and only under team control for 4 years.

This isn't whos the better player. It's who has more trade value. That means contracts, health, etc all come in to consideration

I'm considering it. I just don't think it moves the needle enough at all. At the end of the day there are only so many top guys in the league, and tons of team with cap space hoping to get Lebron or Love or a guy like Blake. I think Drummond's contract is a good argument for him over Iguodala (who is due for a vote as a nominee at some point soon), but when you get to Love or Blake level it is not enough to make the difference.

[HartfordWhalers]

I just see Drummond as being a better piece to a champion than Blake--because I think Blake's game has too many holes especially for a max player.

Seems a bad line of reasoning to use when going on to pick Drummond.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

V: Lillard
N: MCW

[nyc6]

This board simply fails to see the big picture of running a business

I hate Blake griffin so much. His flopping has destroyed the image of the NbA. When I ask ppl "what's the first thing that comes to mind when I say NBA?" just about every1 answers - "floppers"

And I'm thinking to myself- damn.. Seriously screw Blake and harden they made this NBA business an absolute joke like the MLB steroid witch hunters

And even I can't deny Blake is the obvious choice here. It's not even close

Go to a gorceey store and ask a stranger if they ever heard of Damian lillard. You already know the answer. And it's not changing anytime soon. With Blake, you would think there is a decent chance he would be known. And his name is becoming more popular, not the opposite

[Dr Positivity]

Vote

Andre Drummond 8
Damian Lillard 8
Blake Griffin 6
DeMarcus Cousins 4
Kyrie Irving 2


Nomination

Tony Parker 8
Dwyane Wade 5
Michael Carter-Williams 3
Chris Bosh 2
Nicolas Batum 2
Rajon Rondo 1
Al Horford 1
Derrick Favors 1
Jrue Holiday 1
Klay Thompson 1
Bradley Beal 1
Serge Ibaka 1
Joakim Noah 1

Parker is the nominee, I will wait for the Lillard/Drummond tie to broken by another vote

[RSCD3_]

V Drummond


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