Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense

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Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#1 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 4, 2014 6:06 pm

It's been a while since SideshowBob started the offense thread:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1277073

so I figured I'd start an accompanying topic for defense. :) Here's his OP (edited mentions of offense to defense):

SideshowBob wrote:Throw each seasonal version of Jordan on any random defense (or say 1000 different defenses). How would you rank them between each other in terms of how much improvement he creates. Not too concerned about box-score production here, but any discussion is welcome.

Prefer seeing just a list, but if anyone wants to get into degree, feel free to do so, as it only better illustrates nuances in opinion.

For example:

91
92
90
etc.


or

91 Jordan will take an average 0 defense to a +7
84 Jordan will take a 0 to a +5

Not looking for anything in particular here, just an exercise considering the Survey Project seems to be going a little slowly right now and breaking it down this way could (or could not) help reorganize some thoughts a bit.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#2 » by ceiling raiser » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:57 pm

Hm, hasn't gotten much play, so I'll bump it. Here are my defensive SRS numbers for MJ from my last submission:

Code: Select all

 Team    Def
85 CHI   1.0
86 CHI   1.0
87 CHI   1.0
88 CHI   2.0
89 CHI   1.5
90 CHI   1.5
91 CHI   1.5
92 CHI   1.0
93 CHI   1.0
95 CHI   0.5
96 CHI   1.0
97 CHI   0.5
98 CHI   0.0
02 WAS   -0.5
03 WAS   0.0


But in my current attempt, the numbers will probably look very different. For the three seasons of prior-informed RAPM data we have, his DRAPM is +1.7 (1998), -1.2 (2002), -0.5 (2003). Even though these values shouldn't be compared year-to-year, accrossthecourt's NPI numbers for 1997 and 1998 are +1.9 and +0.7, so I'm inclined to believe that MJ would rate appreciably better in 96-97 and earlier (assuming a typical aging curve).

I'm wondering, what do you guys feel were the key timeline events in Jordan's development? Apologies for inaccuracies, this is what I have so far:

1984-85 - Rookie season.
1987-88 - Looked to separate himself from the Magics/Birds, and become a plus defensive player.
1990-91 - Got his weight up to 210 lbs or so from working out with Grover.
1992-93 - Played in the Olympics, exhausted all season.
1994-95 - Took a lot of time back, not necessarily in prime form, finishes the season at 208 lbs.
1995-96 - Trains like mad, starts working out six weeks earlier, up to 216 lbs.
1997-98 - Had to carry a larger load on offense with Pippen out the first half of the season from the broken foot, wasn't the same defensively (age/fatigue and decline might've played a part).
2001-02 - Comes back after time off from retirement.
2002-03 - Full training camp, I believe?

Is anything else notable missing (in particular, I'm wondering if he started weight training before the 89-90 season as opposed to after the next year? I don't recall where I saw that...) or incorrect (just typed this up quickly, very well could be possible)?

EDIT: Discussions of his man and help defense separately would be great here as well (particularly any info on his development in both regards), and very much appreciated. :)
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#3 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:58 pm

fpliii wrote:Hm, hasn't gotten much play, so I'll bump it. Here are my defensive SRS numbers for MJ from my last submission:

Code: Select all

 Team    Def
85 CHI   1.0
86 CHI   1.0
87 CHI   1.0
88 CHI   2.0
89 CHI   1.5
90 CHI   1.5
91 CHI   1.5
92 CHI   1.0
93 CHI   1.0
95 CHI   0.5
96 CHI   1.0
97 CHI   0.5
98 CHI   0.0
02 WAS   -0.5
03 WAS   0.0


But in my current attempt, the numbers will probably look very different. For the three seasons of prior-informed RAPM data we have, his DRAPM is +1.7 (1998), -1.2 (2002), -0.5 (2003). Even though these values shouldn't be compared year-to-year, accrossthecourt's NPI numbers for 1997 and 1998 are +1.9 and +0.7, so I'm inclined to believe that MJ would rate appreciably better in 96-97 and earlier (assuming a typical aging curve).

I'm wondering, what do you guys feel were the key timeline events in Jordan's development? Apologies for inaccuracies, this is what I have so far:

1984-85 - Rookie season.
1987-88 - Looked to separate himself from the Magics/Birds, and become a plus defensive player.
1990-91 - Got his weight up to 210 lbs or so from working out with Grover.
1992-93 - Played in the Olympics, exhausted all season.
1994-95 - Took a lot of time back, not necessarily in prime form, finishes the season at 208 lbs.
1995-96 - Trains like mad, starts working out six weeks earlier, up to 216 lbs.
1997-98 - Had to carry a larger load on offense with Pippen out the first half of the season from the broken foot, wasn't the same defensively (age/fatigue and decline might've played a part).
2001-02 - Comes back after time off from retirement.
2002-03 - Full training camp, I believe?

Is anything else notable missing (in particular, I'm wondering if he started weight training before the 89-90 season as opposed to after the next year? I don't recall where I saw that...) or incorrect (just typed this up quickly, very well could be possible)?

EDIT: Discussions of his man and help defense separately would be great here as well (particularly any info on his development in both regards), and very much appreciated. :)


Found an article regarding the bolded:

''I was prepared to go to the basket, but they played off of me and my jump shot has improved,'' Jordan said. ''That has helped all parts of my game.''

Jordan also installed a weight-training center in his home earlier this season and feels stronger than he has at any time this late in the season. That could signal bad news for the Pistons, who have eliminated Chicago from the playoffs the last two seasons.

''Physically, I feel great,'' Jordan said. ''But we'll have to do it collectively to beat Detroit.''


source: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/17/sport ... d=2&src=pm

So, did he hook up with Grover during 89-90? Or did he just pick up weights and start working out on his own during the season (or the summer prior)?

This also will force me to rethink his offense for 89-90...
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#4 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:11 pm

Here's the quote from The Jordan Rules:

Collins never did figure out how to deal with Jordan. During that 1989– 90 season, Jordan’s friends rode the team bus and the team made reservations for them on the road in the team hotel. Other players were told they couldn’t even have friends or family with them on the road, let alone have the team handle the accommodations. Jackson stopped much of that when he became coach after the 1988– 89 season. But when the players showed up in Atlanta and were handed rooming lists, they saw that Shiver was back with the team, as was Tim Grover.

Grover is Jordan’s personal weight trainer. Again, the separation, the Jordan Rules; the other eleven Bulls work out with strength coaches Al Vermeil and Erik Helland. Helland even goes on long road trips with the team to help keep players on their weight-lifting and workout routines and to find a gym. Jordan and Grover always find a different one.

Jordan started working out on his own during the 1989– 90 season. He purchased a weight set for the basement of his home and eventually hooked up with Grover through the team doctor. Jordan had never worked out and always joked that his pre-training-camp routine involved walking on the golf course. He had long been a junkfood addict who probably took in more grease a year than a squeaky joint, although in recent years he’d stopped eating fast foods. Jordan is just a natural, says the Bulls’ team doctor, John Hefferon, and that allowed him to ignore most of the prescribed regimens for athletes.

But Jordan was finding himself getting worn down in the latter stages of the playoffs , and he wanted to workmore on a post-up move, so he decided he’d need to get stronger to battle for position. He started lifting weights and got his weight over 210 during the 1990– 91 season.

Why not with the team strength coach?

The official reason was that Jordan would draw crowds that were too large at the team’s practice facility.

The real reason? No one was quite sure, but there was considerable speculation that it had to do with the competitive fires that raged within Jordan.

Teams take on their own personality in the locker room . Some are serious, others are into hotfoots and juvenile antics. The Bulls, taking their cue from Jordan, like to harass one another verbally. Often, the abuse can get ugly and personal . Jordan derided Grant regularly during his contract negotiations about how lousy his contract was and how he would be willing to buy a pencil from him to support his family. When rumors spread that Pippen was in line for a contract that might equal or surpass Jordan’s, Grant told Jordan that Pippen would now have to take all the shots and that they’d be glad to help Jordan out with a loan if he needed one. Perhaps for a hair weave?

So the concern was that weight lifting would become a competition and Jordan would lose. Grant, according to Vermeil, already was bench-pressing the weight a football defensive lineman can lift . And even Will Perdue, whom Jordan didn’t respect, had been lifting weights for so long that Vermeil felt it would take Jordan a few years to reach the levels Perdue had now attained.

“Wouldn’t the team just love it if he got a hernia trying to lift more than me?” said Perdue. “They’d probably blame me.”

So the team’s own Jordan rules sent a definite message: Michael Jordan is different from the rest of the team. But not so different that, as the team moved on to Miami on Saturday, Jordan would be permitted to bring his entourage on the team charter. Shiver and Grover would have to meet him in Miami.


So I guess the timeline is:

89-90 season - buys weights to work out on his own at hone
summer of 90 - starts working out with Grover
90-91 season - Grover travels with the team more often than not, and helps Jordan work out on the road as well

Thereafter, how long did they work out together? Were there any changes to the routine? I'm particularly curious about whether they eased up the season after the Olympics (92-93) and possibly in 97-98 (particularly early on, since Scottie was out for so long), and how they handled him coming back into the league (94-95) and getting back into shape (95-96).
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#5 » by SideshowBob » Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:12 am

As I mentioned in the Survey Project thread, I've lost just about all of my data and am in the process of recovering the SRS stuff.

I was thinking about doing another run with these though, so once that's through, I'll get around to posting Jordan's defensive numbers.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#6 » by kayess » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:33 pm

I'm sorry your thread isn't getting much traction, fplii - but know that I read your threads every time because I'm pretty sure I'll learn something.

Maybe ShaqAttack will chime in he's pretty knowledgable about MJ
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#7 » by Gregoire » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:16 pm

SideshowBob wrote:As I mentioned in the Survey Project thread, I've lost just about all of my data and am in the process of recovering the SRS stuff.

I was thinking about doing another run with these though, so once that's through, I'll get around to posting Jordan's defensive numbers.


So, your evaluations of greats like MJ,Lebron, Shaq, Bird ect are now different?
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#8 » by Shot Clock » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:40 pm

Tim Grover. Known as the industry leader in boosting players' athletic abilities through proper training, Grover began training Jordan in 1989, and continued to do so for the remainder of his career.

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/WpxTIZzCck ... irness.htm

One source says 1989
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#9 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:12 am

Shot Clock wrote: Tim Grover. Known as the industry leader in boosting players' athletic abilities through proper training, Grover began training Jordan in 1989, and continued to do so for the remainder of his career.

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/WpxTIZzCck ... irness.htm

One source says 1989

Thanks, that's very interesting. I'm thinking about checking out Grover's book.

JB or any other MJ/Bulls fans, do you guys have any clue about the specificis of MJ's weight-training regimen after 90-91? General comments about his defense would be great as well.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#10 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:48 am

Quote from Grover's book:

Relentless is about achieving the impossible. I know for a fact that anyone can do it. When I was still in high school, just a 5'11" basketball player in Chicago, I was watching a North Carolina game on television and saw Michael Jordan for the first time. He was a skinny freshman with moves I had never seen, completely instinctive and natural; he just knew what to do out there without even thinking about it. I didn’t know anything about him, but I knew this kid was going to be a superstar.

Several years later, I had a master’s degree in exercise science and was working as a trainer at a Chicago health club, and Michael was still skinny, but now he was a superstar with the Chicago Bulls. I had contacted the Bulls numerous times in the 1980s when I became a trainer, hoping for a shot at working with any of the players. I wrote letters to every player except Michael because I figured if he wanted a trainer, he would already have one, and it wouldn’t be a guy like me who was just getting started. No one was interested. At that time, basketball players still weren’t into weight training; the old-school belief was that a bulky upper body would mess up your shot.

Then in 1989, I saw a small newspaper story about how Michael was sick of being outmuscled by the world champion Detroit Pistons and the rest of the league. Once again I contacted the Bulls and talked my way into a meeting with the team doctor , John Hefferon, and the head athletic trainer, Mark Pfeil. What were the chances they would advise their superstar player to work with this unknown trainer who had never trained a professional athlete? None , everyone said. Forget it. Impossible.

Of course, everything is impossible until someone does it. Michael had worked with a trainer once, injured his back during the workout, and was hesitant about trying again. Yet he also instinctively knew it wasn’t enough to have the greatest basketball skills in the history of the game. If he wanted to be more than a legend, if he was truly going to become an icon , he would also need to take his body to the ultimate level, and he was willing to do whatever was necessary to make that happen. So he told John and Mark to find someone who understood exactly what he needed.

A few days after my first meeting with the Bulls, they called me to meet again at their suburban practice facility. I figured it was another interview with the training staff. I had no idea I was being taken to a meeting with Michael Jordan at his home.

Michael and I talked for an hour, and I laid out the whole plan, showing him how we would slowly make him stronger and minimize the risk of injury, explaining how every physical change would affect his shot and how we would make adjustments along the way, getting his whole body working in balance for maximum peak performance, and probably extending his career.

He listened closely to everything I had to say before he responded.

Not possible, he finally said. It’s too good. It just doesn’t sound right.

It’s right, I told him: “I’ll give you a thirty-day schedule detailing exactly what we’re going to do, how it’s going to affect your body, your game, your overall strength. I’ll tell you how you’re going to feel so you can adjust to the changes we’re going to make. We’ll plan what you’ll eat, when you’ll eat it, when you’ll sleep. We’ll look at every detail, leaving nothing to chance. You’ll see how everything works together.”

He gave me thirty days.

I stayed for fifteen years.

When he finally retired, he said, “If I ever see you in my neighborhood again, I’m going to shoot you.”


So 89-90 it is, then. So I guess the jump from 88-89 to 89-90 is more important than I'd initially thought.

EDIT: Another quote:

On the night the Chicago Bulls were eliminated from the 1995 NBA playoffs by the Orlando Magic, I sat with Michael in the darkened United Center until 3: 00 a.m. He had just returned to basketball two months earlier, following his first retirement and brief baseball career; so much had happened in the last year.

Dressed in his suit and tie, he looked around the brand-new arena that had replaced the legendary Chicago Stadium earlier that season and said, “I hate this **** building.”

“You built this **** building,” I said.

During that series, some of the Orlando players said he didn’t look like the old #23, which he didn’t; he was wearing #45, he wasn’t ready, and I knew it better than anyone else. His endurance, his shot . . . there just hadn’t been enough time to get him back to the level of excellence that people had grown accustomed to.

Predictably, there was plenty of talk about how his baseball career had failed, his basketball comeback had failed, he had failed. Michael Jordan was done, they said.

And as usual, they were wrong. A Cleaner is done when he says he’s done, not when you say he’s done.

In fact, you saying it usually ensures the opposite.

At the end of that game, he had a message for the Magic as the all players shook hands and left the court: Enjoy this win, ’cause it ain’t gonna happen again.

Then he changed his number back to #23, and the following season he led the Bulls to an NBA-record 72 wins and the first of three more championship rings to go with the three he’d already won before he “failed.”


This one is subtle, but useful. This cites not only his shot being off, but lack of conditioning. I think this implies that he worked out heavily with Grover in that offseason. I'll see if I can find anything else.

EDIT 2: Again:

I’ve accomplished and experienced enough “impossible” things to realize that nothing is impossible, and every day I crave the challenge of proving that. It’s why I only train athletes and not Hollywood celebrities : everything I do is about performance, and when my guys step out there, there’s no makeup, no script, no hiding. Whatever happens, it’s out there for everyone to see. Actors and actresses can have their flaws and mistakes airbrushed and edited out; my guys have nowhere to hide. I love that pressure. I love getting these athletes ready to go, and seeing all our hard work turn into a masterpiece with the world watching. I loved getting Michael in shape to play baseball, and then back into basketball shape so he could win three more rings to go with the first three. Loved taking Kobe to the highest level and beyond, so he could chase his dream for that fourth and fifth championship and still keep going for more. Loved running into Pat Riley the night Miami won the 2012 championship and having him ask me how I got Dwyane so explosive in just a few short days. You give me a situation, I will make it work. That’s what drives me. A new challenge every time, a new way to do things better than we did before.


Another implication of heavy workouts in the summer of 95.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#11 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:22 am

Just one more source:

http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/tim_grover

Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose needs to get on the court and play, said the former trainer of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. “It’s a mental state for some people,” Tim Grover, the trainer who began working with Jordan in 1989 and Bryant in 2007, said in an interview. “Once he takes that hit and stands back up and sees he’s OK, he’ll be just as good if not better than before.” Chicago Tribune
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#12 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:10 am

Article about working with MJ going into the 01-02 season:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2001-1 ... l-crunches

some other interesting stuff about that season:

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/arti ... ting-cast/

Mention of working with Grover going into 02-03:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/11/sport ... all&src=pm

Found an interesting couple of lines here:

http://www.oocities.org/howtoslamdunk/d ... todunk.htm

Get advice from a gym-instructor about exercises. Team doctor (David Orth) hooked Jordan up with Tim Grover, a former college point guard working as a fitness consultant in Chicago-area businessmen. Jordan's goal was to get stronger an more injury-resistant.

"You can't prevent every ankle sprain, but if you strengthen the correct muscles, you can decrease the chances as well as the severity and recovery time if one occurs."- Tim Grover


Article from the LA Times in 96:

Michael Jordan rolls on, dominant as ever and a much different player at the same time. He leads the league in scoring, was shooting 50% before Thursday's game at Sacramento and had broken 30 points in 24 of 42 games, including 14 of the last 19. He was third in the league in steals. Not worrying about exploding to the rim anymore, he is reading defenses better than ever. He's doing everything but hitting the cutoff man.

Oh, yeah. That baseball thing. He left. He came back. He struggled.

Then came the summer of '95. He hit the weights, getting his basketball legs back.

Tim Grover, his personal trainer of seven years, said he had never seen Jordan work harder, starting the day after the Chicago Bulls were eliminated from the playoffs, instead of during spare moments away from the golf course. When he was in L.A. to make a movie, Warner Bros. erected the Jordan Dome, an enclosed gym that included a regulation court, and guys like Patrick Ewing, Shaquille O'Neal, Dennis Rodman, Reggie Miller and Larry Johnson stopped by for evening pickup games.

He came back anew for the start of the 1995-96 season and no one has touched him since.

"All the hype, all the press talking that his game wasn't back, that he didn't look the same," said Ron Harper, the Bulls' other starting guard. "Ballplayers were talking trash to him. They ain't talking trash this year to him, I'll guarantee you that."

It has already been shown that Michael Jordan and the desire to prove himself, or prove others wrong, is a lethal mix. Some people don't learn, but here's the rule in a nutshell: Don't taunt.

But some doubted. And they taunted.

"I utilize the expectations of the media and the fans to my benefit from a practice standpoint," Jordan said. "Once I'm in the game, I've got to set my own expectations and live up to those.

"Every minute of a game, people are comparing that to my previous time that I played. If I miss three free throws in a row, it's, 'Well, he never would have done that two, three, four years ago, so he's losing something.' "

When, in fact, the only thing he was losing was his youth.

"Everyone keeps saying, 'At 32, it's tough for him,' " said Jordan, who tonight makes his first Forum appearance since Nov. 20, 1992. "I took two years off. I didn't play for two years, so my body didn't take the same type of beating. If I would have played the two extra years, I'd probably be like {Charles} Barkley. I feel physically good.

"I'm happy with my game right now. I think I can do what my mind asks me to do physically and do it consistently, which is where I was two years ago. Can I take off from the free throw line like I did in the slam-dunk contest? Probably not. Would I want to do it? Probably not. But I'm doing what I think I'm capable of doing to help them win, and that's the most important thing."

If people had become bored with his game because it had reached such a high level, as Jordan himself has suggested, he took care of that last season. He quit baseball and returned to the NBA after a 17-month layoff in time to play in 17 regular-season games--and shoot 41.1%, easily a career low, although his average of 6.9 rebounds was better than his lifetime average.

"He still had too much baseball in him last year, by far," said Jerry Krause, the Bulls' vice president for basketball operations and a former veteran scout for four major league teams. "He didn't have a training camp. He hadn't played in a year and a half and he hadn't had a training camp, so that wasn't Michael Jordan that you saw last year."

Neither, in the traditional way, is the Michael Jordan we're seeing this year.

On offense, Air Jordan makes only occasional appearances now. It's not a paparazzi game anymore.

He's more of a jump shooter now. He doesn't drive and slash as much as he used to, but he does post up a lot, get the ball and then go to work close to the basket. Often, with the Bulls starting two 6-foot-6 players in the backcourt, that creates favorable matchups, sometimes against undersized point guards.

"I don't think he's jumping and dunking on people as much," Knick guard Derek Harper said. "I think now, Michael is playing with his head more than anything. He's playing a very smart game."

Said Bull Coach Phil Jackson: "I think it has evolved, because he's much more conscious about taking his time to figure out where the defenses are. He's not always in the attack mode now. Sometimes, it's passing the ball, just drawing the double teams and finding the open guys."

It helps that he is with the Bulls. Scottie Pippen is a great ballhandling forward, good enough that he can start the offense and give Jordan a rest from true point guard duties. Luc Longley is a very good passing center. Likewise Toni Kukoc as a 6-10 forward.

And then there's defense. Pippen is a star in that area too. Dennis Rodman remains a factor, even if he has spent the last couple years cheating away from his man and ignoring proper defensive rotations to go for rebounds. And if there are no inside forces among the centers, no one to provide the same presence as Bill Cartwright did during the three-peat years, there are two veteran 7-footers, Bill Wennington and James Edwards, and a third, Longley, who was just put on the injured list.

Jordan? A six-time selection to the all-defensive team, as voted on by coaches, he has spent his 11th pro season chasing point guards around.

It could eventually wear, all the energy spent trying to corral the little guys. He will turn 33 in two weeks, after all, and is averaging 38.1 minutes a game, a heavy load.

On the other hand, Jordan has regained enough of the quickness, in his legs and arms, to make most others envious. And there are benefits to defending the point: He avoids a different kind of wear and tear--the bruising kind--by not getting pinballed while chasing shooting guards through screens and around picks set by power forwards with jutting hip bones.

"So now you keep him out in front," Cleveland Coach Mike Fratello said. "Away."

That, in turn, allows him to leak out for fastbreaks while Rodman, et al, crash the boards. From there, Jordan in the open court is still Jordan in the open court.

"He can turn it up defensively and be the great defensive stopper he wants to be when he has to," Fratello said. "Right now, I think he picks and chooses when those moments are, because he's a veteran guy."

One so different and yet so much the same.

"The fact that he got back to where he is right now really shouldn't surprise people because he such an incredible athlete," Fratello said.

And Krause concluded, "Once he decided, it was easy for him. He's Michael."

Still.


This article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/26/sport ... eline.html

is about the injury that caused him to miss a month. He was actually playing pretty well up until that point, and going into that game Washington was 27-27, so a push could've helped them make the playoffs. His conditioning was pretty good the next year, but the knee the previous seemed to be it for him.

Anyhow, back to Grover. In 1993 he was still working Jordan intensely:

Jordan addressed them all in his suite last Friday. His personal trainer, Tim Grover, sat nearby, waiting to drive Jordan to a weightlifting workout at the Bo Jackson Center in the Nike complex in suburban Beaverton. Jordan lifts six times a week, including an intense 20-minute program on game days. Grover also has charge of Jordan's pregame meal—steak (medium), large baked potato, green salad and ginger ale or water. If the hotel steak isn't lean enough, Grover buys one at a market and brings it back to the kitchen. And to think that 15 years ago, NBA players puffed cigarettes at halftime.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Nothing too big, but they were working together in 92:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992 ... bvre-bulls

They were working out hard in June:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998 ... ssociation

So other than 94-95, I have no reason to believe that his MJ's training with Grover let up at any point. Sorry for all the posts, but it was some fun research that I think could be pretty useful. :)

EDIT: Not terribly related, but it seems Barkley started working with him in the summer of 98, with Hakeem joining up in March of 99:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Scottie was still working with him, and had been as of the 98 Finals, and actually earlier. Most are familiar with the "Breakfast Club" the Bulls had going:

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/WpxTIZzCck ... irness.htm

According to this, it started prior to 90-91:

http://www.athleteslivehere.com/blog/20 ... fast-club/

though there's no mention in The Jordan Rules. I'm inclined to believe they started up in 95-96:

http://ph.nba.com/bloggers/311/harping- ... tospWQo5n0
http://books.google.com/books?id=cDujon ... 22&f=false
http://articles.latimes.com/1999/may/07 ... sp-34938/2
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#13 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:07 am

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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#14 » by B_Creamy » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:32 am

fpliii wrote:So 89-90 it is, then. So I guess the jump from 88-89 to 89-90 is more important than I'd initially thought.


From my experience in weightlifting I'd say you were right in your original assumption that '90-'91 is when this training really started having a practical effect on his game. While it is true that beginning weight lifters can gain an enormous amount of strength in a relatively short time based on what I've seen of basketball players workout routines he couldn't have possibly been making these gains for a number of reasons.

1. For maximum gains Jordan would need to pack on weight (which he did) but to do it in the most efficient way would require a caloric surplus far surpassing what a trainer would advise to a professional athlete. Basically he would have to get fat to be as strong as possible.

2. There is a mention of "intense 20 minute routines during game days" which cemented my mind the idea that he was not being placed through stressful enough routines for maximum strength gain. Professional weight lifters (not body builders) live largely sedentary lives mostly eating throughout the day and training at very heavy volumes. Some weight lifters take 10-15 minutes between sets of heavy weight, a 20 minute routine is nothing. Obviously a professional basketball player is not in a position to be put through this kind of training if he has to handle conditioning and actually playing through the 82 game schedule.

3. The risk of minor injury when doing heavy leg work is enormous. Obviously a personal trainer helps all the little imperfections in your form but squatting can really destroy your knees if not done perfectly. I know from experience.

All of this leads me to believe that Jordan experienced a pretty gradual strength increase (barring PED's which I don't know the possibility of) so although he started training in '89 it was not until at least '91 that it actually started having impact of his play.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#15 » by ceiling raiser » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:56 pm

B_Creamy wrote:
fpliii wrote:So 89-90 it is, then. So I guess the jump from 88-89 to 89-90 is more important than I'd initially thought.


From my experience in weightlifting I'd say you were right in your original assumption that '90-'91 is when this training really started having a practical effect on his game. While it is true that beginning weight lifters can gain an enormous amount of strength in a relatively short time based on what I've seen of basketball players workout routines he couldn't have possibly been making these gains for a number of reasons.

1. For maximum gains Jordan would need to pack on weight (which he did) but to do it in the most efficient way would require a caloric surplus far surpassing what a trainer would advise to a professional athlete. Basically he would have to get fat to be as strong as possible.

2. There is a mention of "intense 20 minute routines during game days" which cemented my mind the idea that he was not being placed through stressful enough routines for maximum strength gain. Professional weight lifters (not body builders) live largely sedentary lives mostly eating throughout the day and training at very heavy volumes. Some weight lifters take 10-15 minutes between sets of heavy weight, a 20 minute routine is nothing. Obviously a professional basketball player is not in a position to be put through this kind of training if he has to handle conditioning and actually playing through the 82 game schedule.

3. The risk of minor injury when doing heavy leg work is enormous. Obviously a personal trainer helps all the little imperfections in your form but squatting can really destroy your knees if not done perfectly. I know from experience.

All of this leads me to believe that Jordan experienced a pretty gradual strength increase (barring PED's which I don't know the possibility of) so although he started training in '89 it was not until at least '91 that it actually started having impact of his play.


Thanks for the response. From everything I read, he was sitting at 198lbs early on in his career (came into the league at 195), and got his weight up to 210 by 90-91, and after 91-92 he got up to 213-214 lbs (credit to Dipper 13 for this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViiOHgnQm4w&t=29m40s). I suppose it was gradual then, but I'm not sure if 90-91 was the finished product, then (credit again to Dipper 13):

June 06, 1992

Early Wednesday morning, Michael Jordan went through his regular game-day routine. After awaking, and before leaving for practice, Jordan went to the weight room for a workout.

"I lift every day," Jordan said."Before games, it's all upper body, just to maintain the weight that I worked hard in the offseason to gain."

About 12 hours or so before the tipoff of Game 1 of the NBA Finals, Jordan set a personal record by bench-pressing 265 pounds. Then he went to the gym, and began working on his outside shot.

"I go over and shoot and get the rhythm," Jordan said. He got it. Wednesday night, Jordan continued his personal record-setting day by making a career-high six three-point shots, which tied an NBA Finals record.

When you're the best player in the world, that's how you maintain your status. Much is made of Jordan's so-called "natural" talent and his "God-given" gifts. There is no doubt that he is blessed with divine abilities. But he leaves nothing to chance. How many out there figured that Jordan was furiously pumping weights on the day that the championship series began?

"He's really dedicated himself to picking up a couple of pounds and getting stronger," teammate Horace Grant said. "Michael is definitely stronger than he's ever been. He's bigger, and it seems like he's a little faster, if that's possible."


I think it was, as you suggested, a process. Just as The Jordan Rules explains that getting him (and Pippen) to trust the Triangle took a while (they started in 89-90, though Phil and Tex tried to convince Collins and MJ to buy into it earlier (Tex came on as an assistant in 85, Jackson in 87, and he would become head coach going into 89-90), and Scottie/Grant had to suitably develop. I guess all three coincided at the same time.

If, as he stated, he was putting on mass in the offseason and maintaining it during the regular season, I wonder what he did in 89? Was it just lighter stuff, and the first heavy workout followed in 90-91? I also want to try and find more from the summer of 92, and see if the lifting regime was lighter due to the Olympics.

EDIT: Evidently his regime was lighter in the summer of 96:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 74,3358568

This article suggests that he only started lifting in the summer of 90. Since we know that he hooked up with Grover earlier, maybe the original plan wasn't to put on too much bulk? Or this source is incorrect:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 1352,95099

But it says he gained 17 lbs.

As of May 88 he had not interest in lifting whatsoever:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 56,2066626
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#16 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:51 am

Not sure where else to post it, but here are some of my useful notes from The Jordan Rules:

• The triangle wasn't used literally every play during the regular season (Jordan frequently broke out of it in games, much to the dismay of teammates; he and Pippen, when he developed, freelanced quite a bit), and was more useful in the playoffs when dealing with teams playing zones (Detroit, Dunleavy Lakers, Cleveland to some extent). The Riley Knicks were able to slow it down with holding, bumping, pushing.

• Speaking of the triangle, while was important for role players (for there to be a system in place), it was key in mismatches too:

So Jackson made a switch. He sent Paxson off on the wing, where he was best for his spot-up jumper anyway, and had Pippen carry the ball upcourt more. This removed the pressure from the ball— while also keeping it out of Jordan’s hands— since the Pistons then had to try to contest the ball handler with a forward or leave themselves in a major mismatch against Pippen once the ball got upcourt. It was the culmination of the maturation process Jackson had long planned for Pippen.

The process had started earlier in the season when Jackson began leaving either Pippen or Jordan on the floor with the reserves. Ostensibly , Jackson did this to keep a scorer out with the bench players. But Jackson also wanted to push Pippen into developing on his own. He knew Pippen had difficulty taking charge and getting his shots when he played with Jordan.

“But now he was the guy ,” Jackson said. “He had to make the decisions and take charge and score.”

Pippen would grow comfortably into the role; it had been a major factor against Philadelphia. And now, against Detroit, the pressure seemed to fall away from the Bulls’ offense while on defense the Bulls continued to apply pressure of their own. They swarmed over Detroit, making it hard for the Pistons to run their deliberate offense. The Pistons always played ball-control basketball since they were not a great offensive team; they’d control the clock and the backboards, and a 4- or 6-point win by them was like a 15-point win by another team. But they never could get control of these games from the Bulls, no matter what they tried.


• Chicago played a great pressing defense:

But they also had talent and played exceptional halfcourt defense that produced a transition game that allowed Pippen, Jordan, and Grant to run and overcome the team’s weaknesses.


It’s a scramble to get to the basket, and players learn about fighting pressure, but even more about playing midcourt defense. And midcourt is where the Bulls beat teams. The area from the free-throw line to midcourt is where plays begin, and that’s where the Bulls take teams out of their offense, often turning the mistakes into transition slam dunks by Pippen , Jordan, or Grant. Grant’s speed allows him to double and then retreat to his man, and Jordan and Pippen are the riverboat gamblers of the NBA, sharp dudes who will steal your underwear off you, but carefully. Jordan gambles in games the way he gambles off the court— on everything— and Pippen, though more conservative off the court, has a mean streak in him and likes the challenge of the chase.


Of course, Jordan was a major part of that, as was Pippen . But they had the best jobs. Cartwright’s role was to stay back and zone the area under the basket while Jordan and Pippen crept into the passing lanes for steals. This strategy leads to breakaways and crowd-pleasing slams, but they’re often made possible by Paxson, whose job it is to turn the guard to one side so Jordan can jump in and force a bad pass, or Grant can come from behind as he’s racing downcourt, bothering the man with the ball.

“He’s the intrepid one,” said Bach of Grant. “He’s the one who has to meet the ball on the double -team and then sometimes a second time as he goes downcourt, and then he has to find a man to guard and rebound. He’s the one who’s really made our press. We always had the ability to trap a ball handler with two guards, but he’s given us the addition of a big man able to do that. So now you’ve got Pippen at about six-eight and Horace at six-ten and Michael at six-six, and they’re roaring around the court in a triangle of defenders and interceptors, anchored by Paxson in the guard position and Cartwright in the back. And it works by the boldness of Phil in his calls.”


• Scottie was a gambler on defense initially, but that changed this season:

Laughing in the face of this kind of pressure was a new experience for the Bulls. It showed maturity, especially on the part of Pippen, who had surprised the coaches with his seriousness. He was watching game tapes now for the first time in his career. He was working hard in the gym and in games; on defense he was now less like a matador, with a wave and an ole , and more like a bull.


• Speaking of Grant, he was thought of very highly:

In Jordan, Pippen, and Horace Grant, they believed they had perhaps three of the five best players in the conference, and some of their role players seemed more capable than the All-Stars.


• Regarding the Pistons' defense:

As for tactics, the team had to stop its headlong charges into Detroit’s interior defense. The Pistons played a zone, simple and effective, Jackson noted. And the Bulls had to get good shots and take them rather than crash in where they had no room to maneuver. They had to retreat better on defense, and they had to rebound.


The Pistons had two of the league’s best man-to-man defenders, Joe Dumars and Dennis Rodman, to carry out those assignments. Jordan grudgingly respected Dumars, with whom he’d become somewhat friendly at the 1990 All-Star game; Dumars was quiet and resolute, a gentlemanly professional. But Jordan didn’t care much for Rodman’s play. “He’s a flopper,” Jordan would say disdainfully. “He just falls down and tries to get the calls. That’s not good defense.” Rodman once “flopped” so effectively back in the 1988– 89 season that Jordan drew six fouls in the fourth quarter to foul out in the last minute of a close loss to the Pistons.

But Jordan’s frustration against the Pistons was much larger than his dislike for Rodman, his team’s lack of success against Detroit, or even his failure to score effectively since that Easter Sunday game. Detroit simply beat up Jordan, battering him through picks and screens whenever he tried to move. For Jordan, it was like trying to navigate a minefield of bullies. First he’d take a forearm shiver from Dumars when he tried to get past, then perhaps a bump from Bill Laimbeer and a bang from Rodman or Isiah Thomas. The Bulls were so concerned about some of these tactics a few years ago that they focused a camera on Laimbeer throughout the playoffs to see what he was doing and found that he was grabbing players at their pressure points to deaden their arms. They complained to the league, but got no action. And while Thomas is not generally considered a good defender because he doesn’t like to play a helping game, whenever the Bulls play Detroit he is quick to double-team Jordan. He knows Jordan despises him and he doesn’t care much for Jordan being the hero in Chicago, Isiah’s hometown.


The game couldn’t have gone better for the Bulls. They rarely shoot well in Detroit against the Pistons’ quickly rotating defenses; Dennis Rodman bumps and battles against Pippen and refuses to give him the lanes, and Dumars and Laimbeer or Thomas drop off against Jordan and quickly hurry back. But even with Jordan missing 5 of 8 shots in the first quarter, the Bulls trailed just 26– 25 by hitting half their attempts, and Rodman drew 2 early fouls and had to leave the game. By halftime, the Bulls had climbed ahead 44– 41 as Detroit hit just 5 of 17 shots in the second quarter. The first test had been passed. The Bulls now would be shooting at the softer, more forgiving basket.


• Pippen had the injury and migraine problem in 89, 90 and Grant was overly emotional, but they seemed to largely move past those issues during their first championship run (though Grant broke down once during the Sixers series). Scottie also didn't much care for Rodman (I mentioned his D on Scottie above), and there was an incident in the 91 ECF:

Midway through the second quarter, Rodman shoved Pippen hard out of bounds and into the stands; Pippen slammed into the floor behind the basket and suffered a gash in his chin that would take six stitches to close. The Bulls’ bench exploded and moved toward midcourt as a flagrant foul was called. Assistant coach Jim Cleamons engaged in a colorful screaming match with a fan who began making obscene gestures. Pippen moved hazily into a sitting position.

Watching at home, owner Reinsdorf was both incensed and worried.

“That’s good, Scottie, relax, relax,” he said to the TV screen. “Don’t retaliate. You’re behaving like a man.”

Pippen would later tell Reinsdorf that he didn’t retaliate because he couldn’t remember where he was.

“You play, you play, we don’t get involved in that stuff,” Grant instructed Pippen as Pippen rose unsteadily to his feet.

But Rodman wasn’t done. He had let himself loose into that hysterical world that Pippen had wondered about, even if Pippen was in no condition to hear.

“You think that’s something, I’ll do it again,” he screamed at the referees. “Makes no difference to me. We don’t want no **** out here and he’s a ***. I’ll get him again. He’s going down. He’s going down harder this time and see if I care. We don’t put up with none of that ***-ass **** out here.”


I got nearly 100 quotes total, but this is the stuff I most wanted to share. Good stuff.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#17 » by B_Creamy » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:20 am

Just want to ask, did reading through the book change your opinions on Jordan in any meaningful way?
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#18 » by Quotatious » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:30 am

Great stuff, and one thing that popped into my mind while reading this excerpts - MJ calling Rodman a 'flopper' has to be one of the earliest mentions of using the term in the NBA, isn't it?
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#19 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:42 am

B_Creamy wrote:Just want to ask, did reading through the book change your opinions on Jordan in any meaningful way?

I think so. Much like working with Grover/weight+muscle gain, it seems getting into the triangle was gradual. Dealing with zones was big, and I'm not as big on MJ relentlessly attacking the basket (obviously one of the best ever if not THE best ever in this regard). I'm a big fan of him within the offense though, he became a tremendous off-ball player when Pippen evolved.

It was useful to read particularly about how he and Scottie played defense. Watching the tape is useful, but some of the breakdowns are helpful in grasping their concepts (especially since I started watching in 92-93, and most of my viewing of the Bulls earlier is playoff games via torrents/YouTube so far after the fact). I'm probably higher on MJ as a help defender now than I was before.
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Re: Rank Michael Jordan's Seasons by Defense 

Post#20 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:45 am

Quotatious wrote:Great stuff, and one thing that popped into my mind while reading this excerpts - MJ calling Rodman a 'flopper' has to be one of the earliest mentions of using the term in the NBA, isn't it?

I think so. When watching the 76-77 Finals the commentators talked about the act of flopping (not in those words though, more so selling calls) so it was around, but I think it came into vogue around the early 90s and maybe late 80s. They might've used that specific language about Laimbeer at the same time.
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