2013-14 MVP Discussion Thread Pt II

[Antrim]

Games with 12 FTA or more, 2013-14:

LeBron: 1
Durant: 16

When LeBron used to shoot as much as KD is right now, he shot just as many free throws. Its really annoying and stupid for people to continue to complain about the free throw disparity, when they don't look at it in context at all.

LeBron's usage rate: 27.7 (lowest since rookie year)
Durant's usage rate: 29.7 (career high)

LeBron's field goal attempts: 16.2 (a career low)
Durant's field goal attempts: 19.5

Durants currently shooting 10.2 free throws per game. But his usage rate is 29.7 and his field goal attempts are at 19.5. This is the just the second time in his career KD has shot at least 19.5 FG attempts per game and had a usage rate of at least 29. LeBron has done that 5 times in his career. Lets look at those years and see how the free throw attempts stack up.

Durant 09-10 - 10.2 FTA
Durant 13-14 - 10.2 FTA

LeBron 05-06 - 10.3 FTA
LeBron 06-07 - 9.0 FTA
LeBron 07-08 - 10.3 FTA
LeBron 08-09 - 9.3 FTA
LeBron 09-10 - 10.2 FTA

So I don't want to hear it anymore. LeBron can shoot 10+ free throw attempts per game if he wanted to. Its a lot easier to Miami and LeBron fans to try to cry for the disparity being a result of referee bias or whatever, but maybe look at the facts instead. LeBron's usage rate has dropped 4.5 points and his FGA attempts have dropped by 3.9 since the last time he averaged the same number of FTA as Durant now.

No offense (especially because I think you're a good poster), but I really don't care what you want to hear or not, I'm going to post what I see and believe and if you don't like it buy some tissues or something.

About the topic, I don't really care what were LeBron's FTA numbers years ago, since I'm not talking about that. LeBron used to get to the line pretty easily. Now, he doesn't. There is a big disparity in the way that refs used to treat him and the way they treat him now. It is true he's changed his game and he doesn't attack the basket as much as he used to, but the differences in treatment are obvious to anyone who's followed his career closely. This is obviously deliberate, since it started to happen immediately after the Big 3 formed.

Durant is in the opposite side of the spectrum. He gets more love from the refs than pretty much anybody that I can think of off the top of my head, including young LeBron, Wade and Jordan. There is NO way he should be getting this many FTA with the way he plays, he gets bailed out constantly by the refs in plays where no one else would be and that does bother me as a basketball fan, making most OKC games almost unwatchable.

[Rasho_libre]

^for Lebron to get the free throws Durant does he would have to shed 50lbs and start bouncing off defenders. Currently defenders routinely bounce off him. Also the verticality rule would have to change back if he wanted to go to the line like he did back in young cavs days. It's easy to be mad at Durant for his free throw parade games buts he's earned the rep now, so it's okay. I remember a play where Jonas freaking valanciunas hacked Lebron in their last game but JV got benefit of the doubt because he went straight up and Lebron tried to finish with the contact without flailing. We would literally like I said, have to ask Lebron not to focus on finishing and instead throw his arms into the defender Toronto chris bosh style to get the calls kd gets. With Lebron finishing close to 80 percent on drives I think I'd rather him take a fta hit rather him change his game. At the same time OKC fans have to deal with people complaining about Durant free thows. There always going to be a few aspects of a elite players games people will complain about. For KD, it's free thows. When he wins a few MVPs and maybe a title or two, people will forget all about it.

[theokie]

Games with 12 FTA or more, 2013-14:

LeBron: 1
Durant: 16

When LeBron used to shoot as much as KD is right now, he shot just as many free throws. Its really annoying and stupid for people to continue to complain about the free throw disparity, when they don't look at it in context at all.

LeBron's usage rate: 27.7 (lowest since rookie year)
Durant's usage rate: 29.7 (career high)

LeBron's field goal attempts: 16.2 (a career low)
Durant's field goal attempts: 19.5

Durants currently shooting 10.2 free throws per game. But his usage rate is 29.7 and his field goal attempts are at 19.5. This is the just the second time in his career KD has shot at least 19.5 FG attempts per game and had a usage rate of at least 29. LeBron has done that 5 times in his career. Lets look at those years and see how the free throw attempts stack up.

Durant 09-10 - 10.2 FTA
Durant 13-14 - 10.2 FTA

LeBron 05-06 - 10.3 FTA
LeBron 06-07 - 9.0 FTA
LeBron 07-08 - 10.3 FTA
LeBron 08-09 - 9.3 FTA
LeBron 09-10 - 10.2 FTA

So I don't want to hear it anymore. LeBron can shoot 10+ free throw attempts per game if he wanted to. Its a lot easier to Miami and LeBron fans to try to cry for the disparity being a result of referee bias or whatever, but maybe look at the facts instead. LeBron's usage rate has dropped 4.5 points and his FGA attempts have dropped by 3.9 since the last time he averaged the same number of FTA as Durant now.

No offense (especially because I think you're a good poster), but I really don't care what you want to hear or not, I'm going to post what I see and believe and if you don't like it buy some tissues or something.

About the topic, I don't really care what were LeBron's FTA numbers years ago, since I'm not talking about that. LeBron used to get to the line pretty easily. Now, he doesn't. There is a big disparity in the way that refs used to treat him and the way they treat him now. It is true he's changed his game and he doesn't attack the basket as much as he used to, but the differences in treatment are obvious to anyone who's followed his career closely. This is obviously deliberate, since it started to happen immediately after the Big 3 formed.

Durant is in the opposite side of the spectrum. He gets more love from the refs than pretty much anybody that I can think of off the top of my head, including young LeBron, Wade and Jordan. There is NO way he should be getting this many FTA with the way he plays, he gets bailed out constantly by the refs in plays where no one else would be and that does bother me as a basketball fan, making most OKC games almost unwatchable.

Thats fine, but I'm sure you can admit that bias can cloud anyones judgment. How officials treat your favorite player is a very very subjective issue. I understand that its hard to look past "the eye test." I wouldn't even bother to alter your stance on that, its pointless. Instead, Ill just look at facts and numbers to help form my opinions and I'll keep buying tissues with every lazy post you make.

HOWEVER, I don't see how you can disagree that there is a VERY strong correlation between field goal attempts and free throw attempts, for both KD and LeBron (and every other NBA player). Thats basically the point i was making. Surely you don't think LeBron should average the same number of free throws today as he did a few years back, while shooting 5 less field goal attempts and using 5 percent fewer possession?

But to your point, I think what you're saying is that LeBron is shooting less free throws substantially because, the refs have some agenda or bias towards him, but not necessarily because of his game being different and looking to score less. If that was the case, wouldn't his field goal attempts have actually gone up? For example, if player X shoots 25 shots per game, including those he is fouled on, that player would average 20 FGA and 10 FTs (for sake of argument in this hypo were excluding non-shooting fouls). But.. if the refs never called a foul call on him because of some bias, then he would average 25 FGA. Basically my point is this, if the player is playing the same way, and if the refs were calling less and less fouls, his FGAs would increase proportionally to the decrease in FTA. Thats obviously not the case here, so its something different than referees treating LeBron unfairly.

[theokie]

^for Lebron to get the free throws Durant does he would have to shed 50lbs and start bouncing off defenders..

Ahh yes, we all remember that scrawny 200 pound LeBron back in the day who averaged on multiple occasions more free throw attempts in a season than Durant ever has.

[Antrim]

Thats fine, but I'm sure you can admit that bias can cloud anyones judgment. How officials treat your favorite player is a very very subjective issue. I understand that its hard to look past "the eye test." I wouldn't even bother to alter your stance on that, its pointless. Instead, Ill just look at facts and numbers to help form my opinions and I'll keep buying tissues with every lazy post you make.

I don't have a "favorite" player. I -usually, not lately- love watching LeBron because I enjoy greatness, and I would love watching Durant if the refs didn't make 90% of his games unwatchable. I don't have any bias, if you ask me if the RS ended today Durant should be MVP.

HOWEVER, I don't see how you can disagree that there is a VERY strong correlation between field goal attempts and free throw attempts, for both KD and LeBron (and every other NBA player). Thats basically the point i was making. Surely you don't think LeBron should average the same number of free throws today as he did a few years back, while shooting 5 less field goal attempts and using 5 percent fewer possession?

I don't disagree that there is a very strong correlation between FGA and FTA, I don't think I've ever said otherwise. Now, let's briefly look at those numbers:

03-04 LeBron: 0.30 FTA per FGA attempt
04-05 LeBron: 0.38 FTA per FGA attempt
05-06 LeBron: 0.44 FTA per FGA attempt
06-07 LeBron: 0.43 FTA per FGA attempt
07-08 LeBron: 0.47 FTA per FGA attempt
08-09 LeBron: 0.47 FTA per FGA attempt
09-10 LeBron: 0.50 FTA per FGA attempt
10-11 LeBron: 0.44 FTA per FGA attempt
11-12 LeBron: 0.42 FTA per FGA attempt
12-13 LeBron: 0.39 FTA per FGA attempt
13-14 LeBron: 0.45 FTA per FGA attempt

See the huge drop after joining Miami, compared to the three previous years?

I'm too lazy to put all of Durant's years, so I'm only posting the last two:

12-13 Durant: 0.52 FTA per FGA attempt
13-14 Durant: 0.52 FTA per FGA attempt

So basically last and current year Durant have a better FTA per FGA ratio than LeBron EVER.

It shouldn't even be a contest based on their playing styles. And it is not a contest, but with a completely different result that one would expect.

THIS is what I'm complaining about.

Oh, and let me make it very clear: Durant is NOT to blame for any of this. He should take everything he can in the court, and if he's getting the advantage of being sent to the line more than anyone else good for him.

Of course, I'll also complain about that because it makes OKC games almost unwatchable for a neutral spectator.

But to your point, I think what you're saying is that LeBron is shooting less free throws substantially because, the refs have some agenda or bias towards him, but not necessarily because of his game being different and looking to score less. If that was the case, wouldn't his field goal attempts have actually gone up? For example, if player X shoots 25 shots per game, including those he is fouled on, that player would average 20 FGA and 10 FTs (for sake of argument in this hypo were excluding non-shooting fouls). But.. if the refs never called a foul call on him because of some bias, then he would average 25 FGA. Basically my point is this, if the player is playing the same way, and if the refs were calling less and less fouls, his FGAs would increase proportionally to the decrease in FTA. Thats obviously not the case here, so its something different than referees treating LeBron unfairly.

I am saying there is NO way LeBron should be shooting less FT than Durant, not this year, not last, not next. It is a disgrace that the refs treat them completely different.

If you do not think the refs have changed the way they call fouls for LeBron, then you simply have not been paying attention for the last few years.

This hidden agenda also affects the Heat as a whole. But you probably consider that the fact that they broke the historical record of less FTA in a 7 game series during the Finals a mere coincidence.

[Joao Saraiva]

On the FT discussion people talk about FGA per game. But not every FGA is equal. LeBron used to shoot the ball much closer to the basket, and that usually gets you more FTs. On last game for example, Durant had 21 shot attempts but 7 are 3 pointer, so the odds of being fouled are really much less. Can anybody also post some stat on this?

[MisterHibachi]

On the FT discussion people talk about FGA per game. But not every FGA is equal. LeBron used to shoot the ball much closer to the basket, and that usually gets you more FTs. On last game for example, Durant had 21 shot attempts but 7 are 3 pointer, so the odds of being fouled are really much less. Can anybody also post some stat on this?

I would like to see stats on drives/shots in the paint.

[Antrim]

FGA at the rim, 2013-14:

LeBron - 319
Durant - 270

[MisterHibachi]

FGA at the rim, 2013-14:

LeBron - 319
Durant - 270

Wow.

[Rasho_libre]

I know the games not done but Durant locked up the MVP tonight IMO.

[Def Swami]

Kevin Durant is the frontrunner for this, right?

Just took a glance at his stat lines over the last 10 games or so and homie close to 35+ ppg, excluding tonight's out of body experience.

[pelican piranha]

Well, Goodnight Sweet King.

[WinisKing]

Whelp, this race got out of hand fast

Lebron got some serious offseason training to do if he doesn't want Durant o surpass him next season

[Rasho_libre]

Kevin Durant is the frontrunner for this, right?

Just took a glance at his stat lines over the last 10 games or so and homie close to 35+ ppg, excluding tonight's out of body experience.

He has to be. Right now Durant's running away with it.

[Rasho_libre]

Whelp, this race got out of hand fast

Lebron got some serious offseason training to do if he doesn't want Durant o surpass him next season

He's going to pass him sooner or later regardless. He has youth on his side.

[WinisKing]

Whelp, this race got out of hand fast

Lebron got some serious offseason training to do if he doesn't want Durant o surpass him next season

He's going to pass him sooner or later regardless. He has youth on his side.

Just didn't think it would happen so soon.

[MisterHibachi]

That's overreaction. He hasn't passed LeBron yet. He's head and shoulders above him in the MVP race tho.

[PaulieWal]

I know the games not done but Durant locked up the MVP tonight IMO.

Pretty much unless LeBron goes on his customary tear around this time now. Durant was unreal tonight. Still half a season to go, never know what happens.

[MisterHibachi]

I know the games not done but Durant locked up the MVP tonight IMO.

Pretty much unless LeBron goes on his customary tear around this time now. Durant was unreal tonight. Still half a season to go, never know what happens.

I don't think he has it locked up yet. He's almost lapping the field right now, but if OKC loses to Miami, its all even again. A lot will depend on that game I think.

[EArl]

Durant starting to separate himself. What a game.