Danny Ferry vs. Billy Knight vs. Pete Babcock.

[diesel50]

You believe that Ferry has a plan? I don't think it's a clear one. Just look at how he has signed contracts. He signs transitional players with no trade. He signed Long term specialist with no championship quality team. He drafts players with potential and has a coach that won't play them. Especially when Horf is down. It's like getting on a treadmill and running really hard. You're working out but you're really not going anywhere.

I don't think there's a great deal of difference between freeing up money for a major free agent and waiting for a Harden situation. In both cases, you're looking to add a top talent because you had the freedom to jump when other teams didn't have that freedom. I don't think Ferry has had a change of plans; it's one plan: available cap space.

There again. Know thyself. This is something that every GM ought to know. Over the last 30 something years that I have been a fan, this is what I know.... We've never gotten a top FA without overpaying. You say that Ferry is waiting for a trade of Opportunity... OK.. If that's the case, what's with this good guy culture. Nobody's going to trade us for Elton Brand and these Europlayers are a waste also. Ferry should have been going after guys who have value PERIOD. It boggles my mind that so many players have been moved already and we were nowhere close. Gortat. Gay. Deng. Just to name a few... and where were we... Don't get me wrong, I see where you can say that we got Sap for the ability to trade him in a Harden situation... the real question is how tightly are we going to hold on to him? Before it's over more players will be moved... but other teams are not so willing to pull a Harden... They want Value for Value. IN which case, we need value and ought not be caught up with our own value.

[diesel50]

I say it's waaaaaaay too early to judge Ferry's draftees. One year ago we were raving about Jenkins. 6 months ago the league was abuzz over Dennis. Three months ago we thought we had a young diamond in the rough in Mike Scott '

Jamaaliver, I will say I agree with you... but here's my problem... Development. When Horf went down, that signaled the time when all of our young guns should get their development time. Instead, we're using Dennis as the waterboy. We have Cunningham as the mayor of Bakersfield. And Scott is doing his thing... If we want these babies to become players, they have to play against Men.

[PandaKidd]

Cal Bowdler. Dion Glover. Ed Gray. (NOTE: Ed Gray was at least a beast while playing for the Hawks. He used to train in the offseason at my gym and played 21 with us High School kids on occasion.) None of these guys did much (or anything) after leaving the hometeam.

Hes on the Hawks Sales team now, met him last year, he works out with the team during practice and does some media events.

I shot around with him at Philips a few times and see him around my condo on the street from time to time

[parson]

You say that Ferry is waiting for a trade of Opportunity... OK.. If that's the case, what's with this good guy culture. Nobody's going to trade us for Elton Brand and these Europlayers are a waste also. Ferry should have been going after guys who have value PERIOD.

Thank you, Joe Dumars (or is it Billy Knight? ). We're so glad you taught us what happens to teams that seek "guys who have value PERIOD." Is no one looking at the mess in DET? Does no one remember Billy Knight saying that it didn't matter what position we drafted, we just needed to pile up talent? He said we could trade them later to make the chemistry work.

And those "good guys" - like Brand and Korver - know how to play the game. That's why they're so attractive.

[dms269]

I say it's waaaaaaay too early to judge Ferry's draftees. One year ago we were raving about Jenkins. 6 months ago the league was abuzz over Dennis. Three months ago we thought we had a young diamond in the rough in Mike Scott '

Jamaaliver, I will say I agree with you... but here's my problem... Development. When Horf went down, that signaled the time when all of our young guns should get their development time. Instead, we're using Dennis as the waterboy. We have Cunningham as the mayor of Bakersfield. And Scott is doing his thing... If we want these babies to become players, they have to play against Men.

I completely disagree. If the young guys want to earn minutes on this team they need to work hard for it. We aren't doing them any favors by benching perfectly healthy and better older guys just to give them minutes. Dennis has to learn that he needs to keep his turnovers down to be successful in this league. If he proves in limited game minutes that he can do that, he will gain more minutes. If he struggles then it is back to the bench.

[diesel50]

I completely disagree. If the young guys want to earn minutes on this team they need to work hard for it. We aren't doing them any favors by benching perfectly healthy and better older guys just to give them minutes. Dennis has to learn that he needs to keep his turnovers down to be successful in this league. If he proves in limited game minutes that he can do that, he will gain more minutes. If he struggles then it is back to the bench.

Which coach was it that as soon as a player made a mistake, he was pulled and benched. Was told that he had to earn his minutes and not make mistakes on the big stage. Oh yeah... that was Woody... talking about Acie Law... or was it Salim Stoudamire or was it Teague? Yeah... that type of development really worked well for their confidence.
I'm not saying that you totally ignore the vets, but there comes a time when you ramp up the playing time for those rooks because it's obvious that you're not going anywhere.
I turn your attention to the 2006-2007 Boston Celtics. Rondo started the year behind Telfair and West. He was the third PG on a squad with young talent but no chance of winning. Doc started to insert Rondo into the games more and more. Sure, his stats were terrible at the time, but he kept playing him. Fast foward a few years later... Rondo = one of the best PGs in the game. I'm not saying that you ignore your vets, but I'm saying let's see what we got with these young guys and build up some confidence and at the same time, increase our draft status.

[dms269]

I completely disagree. If the young guys want to earn minutes on this team they need to work hard for it. We aren't doing them any favors by benching perfectly healthy and better older guys just to give them minutes. Dennis has to learn that he needs to keep his turnovers down to be successful in this league. If he proves in limited game minutes that he can do that, he will gain more minutes. If he struggles then it is back to the bench.

Which coach was it that as soon as a player made a mistake, he was pulled and benched. Was told that he had to earn his minutes and not make mistakes on the big stage. Oh yeah... that was Woody... talking about Acie Law... or was it Salim Stoudamire or was it Teague? Yeah... that type of development really worked well for their confidence.
I'm not saying that you totally ignore the vets, but there comes a time when you ramp up the playing time for those rooks because it's obvious that you're not going anywhere.
I turn your attention to the 2006-2007 Boston Celtics. Rondo started the year behind Telfair and West. He was the third PG on a squad with young talent but no chance of winning. Doc started to insert Rondo into the games more and more. Sure, his stats were terrible at the time, but he kept playing him. Fast foward a few years later... Rondo = one of the best PGs in the game. I'm not saying that you ignore your vets, but I'm saying let's see what we got with these young guys and build up some confidence and at the same time, increase our draft status.

What type of message are you sending to your team if a player can have 3 turnovers in under 15 minutes and you reward him with giving him more minutes. You say woody punished players by benching them when they made mistakes, yet he also was the one who let Josh have free range with shooting the ball whenever and whenever he wanted. You can't reward a player with more minutes when he is so turnover prone as Schroder is right now. How would you break the news to Teague or Mack? "Both of you have been amazing this year for us, but we are getting your minutes to give butterfingers the ball more often". Schroder needs to decide whether he wants to work hard or not. He sat for 6 games and came in and decided to average 6 turnovers per 36 minutes. The kid is talented but he is worse than Curry is when it comes to handling the ball (and withotu the added 3-point shooting).

I understand you are all gung ho for the tank and want to sit every good player with imaginary injuries so we can tank, but that won't work in today's NBA. We would end up having unrest in the lockerroom with the vets demanding trades and refusing to play (Tayshawn Prince anyone). You want to alienate any free agent from coming to Atlanta, then do this. Players don't want to play for people who will lead them out to pasture when they are done using them.

[parson]

There are 3 reasons for a coach to have a quick hook: 1) the coach is only comfortable with veterans (Woodson) and doesn't know how - or doesn't care - to develop youngsters; 2) the coach doesn't believe in the kid and thinks he's a waste of time (Stoudamire?); and 3) the coach is using the benchings to re-enforce his teachings.

Woodson was definitely guilty of 1 and 2; I think Budenholzer uses #3. At some point, you trust the coach - and later fire him if he's wrong. Accusing Budenholzer of having Woodson's motivations or not understanding they operate differently is blind, I believe.

[Jamaaliver]

What type of message are you sending to your team if a player can have 3 turnovers in under 15 minutes and you reward him with giving him more minutes.

Fair points, but at some point you have to at least let the young player try to work his way past the mistakes. He can't have 3 turnovers in 15 minutes and then not play for 2 weeks. A young, foreign, Euro style player is going to have growing pains. But he can't improve just playing in practice with the B-Team.

Either leave him in the D-League, or let him get a consistent 10 minutes. The biggest red flag was that Dennis was benched in favor of Mack only a few weeks into his career. Weeks. Less than a month into the season, Schroeder becomes a spectator.

That is a waste of assets. If that were the case, why even bring Schroeder over from Europe?

[parson]

What if they think Mack's a prospect? Another Anthony Johnson would have pretty decent value, both to our team and in trade.

I think their priority is Jeff Teague. Either build him up to be a starter or as trade bait. Schröder's 3rd man right - and it's his own fault.

[dms269]

What type of message are you sending to your team if a player can have 3 turnovers in under 15 minutes and you reward him with giving him more minutes.

Fair points, but at some point you have to at least let the young player try to work his way past the mistakes. He can't have 3 turnovers in 15 minutes and then not play for 2 weeks. A young, foreign, Euro style player is going to have growing pains. But he can't improve just playing in practice with the B-Team.

Either leave him in the D-League, or let him get a consistent 10 minutes. The biggest red flag was that Dennis was benched in favor of Mack only a few weeks into his career. Weeks. Less than a month into the season, Schroeder becomes a spectator.

That is a waste of assets. If that were the case, why even bring Schroeder over from Europe?

The goal is still to win games. We are not tanking as a team. I am fine with playing Dennis if it is a blowout. However if it is a tight game being played, you really can't run the risk of his turnovers affecting the outcome of the game. That is why if Teague needs a break Bud has gone with the hot hand, which is Mack.

I do think parson might be on to something with Mack. He is only 23 and still is considered a prospect due to his age.

[diesel50]

The goal is still to win games. We are not tanking as a team. I am fine with playing Dennis if it is a blowout. However if it is a tight game being played, you really can't run the risk of his turnovers affecting the outcome of the game. That is why if Teague needs a break Bud has gone with the hot hand, which is Mack.

I do think parson might be on to something with Mack. He is only 23 and still is considered a prospect due to his age.

Don't get me wrong. This can apply for mack too. What I'm saying is maybe give equal time to Teague, Mack, and Dennis. I guess it would be more apprapoe after the trade deadline. However, for me, I'm good with us Tanking...Because I believe we can do better with a Lottery pick than we can with a midround pick and 1 round of the playoffs. I would love to have the next Durant, Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Rose, Walls, etc.. Stars on the rise. You don't get those guys in trades.

[parson]

Thanks, uga. I understand Schröder's speed, quickness, vision and abilities make him a terrific prospect. However, I also think Mack's abilities and strength make him a good (not great) prospect, as well.

I HATED the guy for awhile, but he has definitely improved and shown the ability to run a team. And his strength could help him become a good defender.

I still prefer Schröder as a prospect but Mack has earned his minutes and the right to be called a legitimate NBA prospect. And I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that way: I can see BOS letting Rondo go (in a trade) and them trying to sign Mack next year.

[dms269]

The goal is still to win games. We are not tanking as a team. I am fine with playing Dennis if it is a blowout. However if it is a tight game being played, you really can't run the risk of his turnovers affecting the outcome of the game. That is why if Teague needs a break Bud has gone with the hot hand, which is Mack.

I do think parson might be on to something with Mack. He is only 23 and still is considered a prospect due to his age.

Don't get me wrong. This can apply for mack too. What I'm saying is maybe give equal time to Teague, Mack, and Dennis. I guess it would be more apprapoe after the trade deadline. However, for me, I'm good with us Tanking...Because I believe we can do better with a Lottery pick than we can with a midround pick and 1 round of the playoffs. I would love to have the next Durant, Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Rose, Walls, etc.. Stars on the rise. You don't get those guys in trades.

What? You are good with tanking? I would have never guessed.

I just don't see us being bad enough to actually tank like we would need to tank to get a top prospect from this draft. We have too much talent and not enough time to properly dump them.

[Jamaaliver]

I do think parson might be on to something with Mack. He is only 23 and still is considered a prospect due to his age.

Even if Mack is playing his way out of coming back to Atlanta? He'll clearly earn a pay increase next season, and it seems unlikely Ferry would invest much money/years into a guy who, at best, should be the 3rd string PG. That's why I don't see him as part of OUR talent base. The better he plays, the more likely he goes after big bucks elsewhere.

The goal is still to win games. We are not tanking as a team. I am fine with playing Dennis if it is a blowout. However if it is a tight game being played, you really can't run the risk of his turnovers affecting the outcome of the game. That is why if Teague needs a break Bud has gone with the hot hand, which is Mack.

Would it kill the team to play Dennis 5 minutes in the 2nd & 3rd quarters when the game is still doubt? Or just leave him altogether in the d-League? My issue is less with Mack, than with Dennis not getting playing time. At any level.

[dms269]

I am fine with sending Dennis to the d-league, however it had a negative connotation for being only for busts. You send a player there and people flip out.



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