If you really want Joey D gone, you should be wishing for...

[qm22]

I doubt a serious evaluation of Dumars by Gores' team would only hinge on if the pick were lost. That it is a possibility is enough of an issue. So, I wouldn't hope for a massive franchise set back just to make an unnecessary black mark for Dumars.

Because the team looks like they will miss the playoffs they better trade guys like Stuckey and Monroe for assets to make sure the pick ends up in the protected range and to shift into a rebuild. Then let Jennings be in charge of the tank, with Bynum running things by himself as the major backup guard. Maybe spend some time to develop Drummond on offense.

I can't imagine us losing our pick if we trade Stuckey and Monroe and we could get at least get minimal assets for them.

[Snakebites]

I maintain that losing the pick this year in the 9/10 range might not even be worse long term for the team than keeping it at 8 and opening ourselves up to the nearly unprotected territory the pick gets into next year.

[qm22]

I would sacrifice both to see him gone. That's how terrible I think he is.

Wow, you are a awesome fan. You know, just because you get a new GM doesn't mean you start winning, there's plenty of teams that don't have Dumars and do much worse than us, the grass isn't always greener.

Very true. Everyone here agrees that Dumars has been terrible the last half decade (except for drafting Moose and Drummond), but really...who do you replace him with? I think it's even more of a crapshoot when hiring a first time GM than hiring new coaches, the chances of us getting a David Kahn or Isiah Thomas are higher than a Sam Presti or Masai Uriji.

I know it was forever ago, but there's only like five active championship winning GMs...and Joe is one of them.

Yet I doubt few GMs would have drafted Brandon Knight, traded him for a guy Milwaukee wouldn't resign, signed a PF to max money (which came from cap space gained by giving up a draft pick in a good draft), after just going through a similar situation in past years.

Given he's positioned the team to have very little space or draft picks to improve into contention, barring a major trade, it seems talk of a championship he won in the past is really beyond the realm of a current team to achieve. I.e., perhaps there is an argument for Dumars to be able to turn a middle-level team into a champion, but there appears to be no argument Dumars is good at taking a bad team to a mid-level one (and one which has flexibility for improvement). And most GMs are at least capable of doing that. Even if imperfectly, rarely do they take excessive pointless risks at bad contracts when they are in a good developing position.

[paulpressey25]

Can we (Milwaukee) give you guys back John Hammond?

I'm not sure how either of these clowns managed to put together that Pistons core in the 2000-2003 period.

[The Penguin]

Joe Dumars entire approach is wrong which is why I want him gone. He doesn't believe in positions and a balanced roster. His philosophy is try to stack talent together regardless of position, that all he needs to do is find versatile players and have them all be interchangeable. This mentality gave us the Gordon/Rip/Stuckey debacle, the Smith/Monroe/Dre idiocy, an endless obsession with combo guards, everybody from Knight, to Stuckey, Monroe, Smith all playing out of position. It's like he saw Lebron James and decided that all of basketball had to be like Lebron. News flash Joe, Lebron is a once in a generation talent. He highlights how out of the ordinary it is to have players who can shift to almost all positions.

I was just about to say something similar.

Do we know that Joe was ever very good at his job? I think the argument could be made that he got lucky when putting together the championship squad. His approach has always been the same "identify under valued talented players" the difference that guys like Chauncey and Ben had over guys like CV31 and Ben Gordon was between the ears, the same with Jennings and Josh Smith. Ben and Chauncey had massive chips on their shoulders and were given a championship caliber coach. Since then we've had an endless supply of mental midgets both on the court and on the sideline. The constant has been Joe. He didn't lose his touch, he never had it.


Joe has to go NOW and we have to tank like champions. Add Wiggins and a coach smart enough to figure out that 96/3=32 minutes per Drummond/Monroe/Smith without overlap. Make Smith the "starter" at SF so he doesn't bitch and moan and pull one at the first dead ball. This isn't rocket science, yet it took Cheeks 30+ games to figure out we are much better with only two of Drummond/Monroe/Smith in the game.

[The Penguin]

Can we (Milwaukee) give you guys back John Hammond?

I'm not sure how either of these clowns managed to put together that Pistons core in the 2000-2003 period.

1) Ben Wallace was a throw in on the Grant Hill deal. Ben turned himself into the player he became.
2) Chauncey was a Hail Mary acquisition as the Pistons needed a pg and he only had a shot in Minny after Brandon got hurt.
3) Rasheed was basically free because he pitched a fit after going to Atlanta.
4) Carlisle and Larry Brown are both championship level coaches.


Joe and Hammond didn't have some special touch, they lucked into talented guys with chips on their shoulders and great coaching.

[DetroitDon15]

Can we (Milwaukee) give you guys back John Hammond?

I'm not sure how either of these clowns managed to put together that Pistons core in the 2000-2003 period.

1) Ben Wallace was a throw in on the Grant Hill deal. Ben turned himself into the player he became.
2) Chauncey was a Hail Mary acquisition as the Pistons needed a pg and he only had a shot in Minny after Brandon got hurt.
3) Rasheed was basically free because he pitched a fit after going to Atlanta.
4) Carlisle and Larry Brown are both championship level coaches.


Joe and Hammond didn't have some special touch, they lucked into talented guys with chips on their shoulders and great coaching.

I agree with you but Sheed cost Detroit two picks, one of which was Josh Smith. Remember, ATL got more for Sheed than they gave up for him. Joe will be fired at season's end. Id deal Smith straight up for Paul right now and throw stuckey in to match salaries.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[DBC10]

Can we (Milwaukee) give you guys back John Hammond?

I'm not sure how either of these clowns managed to put together that Pistons core in the 2000-2003 period.

1) Ben Wallace was a throw in on the Grant Hill deal. Ben turned himself into the player he became.
2) Chauncey was a Hail Mary acquisition as the Pistons needed a pg and he only had a shot in Minny after Brandon got hurt.
3) Rasheed was basically free because he pitched a fit after going to Atlanta.
4) Carlisle and Larry Brown are both championship level coaches.


Joe and Hammond didn't have some special touch, they lucked into talented guys with chips on their shoulders and great coaching.

I agree with you but Sheed cost Detroit two picks, one of which was Josh Smith. Remember, ATL got more for Sheed than they gave up for him. Joe will be fired at season's end. Id deal Smith straight up for Paul right now and throw stuckey in to match salaries.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using RealGM Forums mobile app

someone hire this man to take Dumars' job.

I would deal Smith for whatever value (probably negative) we can get.

[ImHeisenberg]

Can we (Milwaukee) give you guys back John Hammond?

I'm not sure how either of these clowns managed to put together that Pistons core in the 2000-2003 period.

1) Ben Wallace was a throw in on the Grant Hill deal. Ben turned himself into the player he became.
2) Chauncey was a Hail Mary acquisition as the Pistons needed a pg and he only had a shot in Minny after Brandon got hurt.
3) Rasheed was basically free because he pitched a fit after going to Atlanta.
4) Carlisle and Larry Brown are both championship level coaches.


Joe and Hammond didn't have some special touch, they lucked into talented guys with chips on their shoulders and great coaching.

Don't forget that Joe was generally considered to be fleeced when he traded Stackhouse for Hamilton as well. Rip turned out to be a good acquisition, but definitely overstayed his welcome.

[ImHeisenberg]

http://detroitsportsrag.net/trey-burke- ... om-palace/

This blogger recorded videos of him heckling Dumars at the Detroit/Utah game from a few nights ago. Even though he never uses profanity or derogatory, they still kick him out.

[MotownMadness]

That's hilarious, I would love to get a lot of things off my chest to Dumars.

[paQo the BAWSER]

dumars drafted greg monroe over paul george, brandon knight over kemba walker, kawhi leonard or chandler parsons...

people used to say he's too good drafting, but except drummond (and maybe KCP) he's not that good, bird is that good, and don't forget dj white, austin daye...

[ImHeisenberg]

dumars drafted greg monroe over paul george, brandon knight over kemba walker, kawhi leonard or chandler parsons...

people used to say he's too good drafting, but except drummond (and maybe KCP) he's not that good, bird is that good, and don't forget dj white, austin daye...

He's not good at drafting. He just takes the biggest name still on the board and hopes for the best. He took Knight without Knight ever working out for Detroit. Austin Daye was huge bust, he passed Ty Lawson and a handful of other productive players for that bust. He took Darko because he saw one informal workout. Monroe and Drummond fell into his lap- and following the trend, were the biggest names still available.

And he has a huge bias of drafting "southern boys".

[The Penguin]

dumars drafted greg monroe over paul george, brandon knight over kemba walker, kawhi leonard or chandler parsons...

people used to say he's too good drafting, but except drummond (and maybe KCP) he's not that good, bird is that good, and don't forget dj white, austin daye...

He's not good at drafting. He just takes the biggest name still on the board and hopes for the best. He took Knight without Knight ever working out for Detroit. Austin Daye was huge bust, he passed Ty Lawson and a handful of other productive players for that bust. He took Darko because he saw one informal workout. Monroe and Drummond fell into his lap- and following the trend, were the biggest names still available.

And he has a huge bias of drafting "southern boys".

The Daye pick is the one that still irks me. Daye couldn't play in college and the guys drafted right after him were Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson and Jeff Teague. But hey, don't waste a draft pick on a real pg, we can make Stuckey into our pg of the future.


Think about how much better off this franchise would be had Dumars been hit by a bus in the summer of 2008. Check out this string of transactions:

11/3/08 - traded Billups and McDyess for Iverson
6/23/09 - traded Amir Johnson for Fabricio Oberto
6/25/09 - selected Austin Daye over Holiday, Lawson, Teague (among others). Sold Chase Budinger for pennies but kept Dejuan Summers and Jonas Jerebko
7/8/09 - Signed Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva
7/9/09 - Named Kuester head coach
7/13/09 - Traded Afflalo to Denver for a 2nd round pick to free up cap room to sign Chris Wilcox

That's 6 consecutive train wreck decisions that we aren't even beginning to recover from, I don't know if anyone could have done worse. AND HE STILL HAS HIS JOB!

[ImHeisenberg]

The Daye pick is the one that still irks me. Daye couldn't play in college and the guys drafted right after him were Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson and Jeff Teague. But hey, don't waste a draft pick on a real pg, we can make Stuckey into our pg of the future.


Think about how much better off this franchise would be had Dumars been hit by a bus in the summer of 2008. Check out this string of transactions:

11/3/08 - traded Billups and McDyess for Iverson
6/23/09 - traded Amir Johnson for Fabricio Oberto
6/25/09 - selected Austin Daye over Holiday, Lawson, Teague (among others). Sold Chase Budinger for pennies but kept Dejuan Summers and Jonas Jerebko
7/8/09 - Signed Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva
7/9/09 - Named Kuester head coach
7/13/09 - Traded Afflalo to Denver for a 2nd round pick to free up cap room to sign Chris Wilcox

That's 6 consecutive train wreck decisions that we aren't even beginning to recover from, I don't know if anyone could have done worse. AND HE STILL HAS HIS JOB!

I literally cringed reading that list. He is the worst GM in all of the NBA, now that he doesn't have the Kings front office to stand on top of anymore- who bought Rudy Gay for pennies on the dollar and has been seeing the best version of Rudy Gay since a couple years ago in Memphis.

[triplet1984]

11/3/08 - traded Billups and McDyess for Iverson
6/23/09 - traded Amir Johnson for Fabricio Oberto
6/25/09 - selected Austin Daye over Holiday, Lawson, Teague (among others). Sold Chase Budinger for pennies but kept Dejuan Summers and Jonas Jerebko
7/8/09 - Signed Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva
7/9/09 - Named Kuester head coach
7/13/09 - Traded Afflalo to Denver for a 2nd round pick to free up cap room to sign Chris Wilcox

*shudders*