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Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article.

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Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#1 » by diesel50 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:42 pm

Yet another Asik to the Hawks article has surfaced.

If anybody would like to add the article, that'd be great.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#2 » by diesel50 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:50 pm

Look at the Asik. What are your feelings on this deal:

Milsapp/Brand for Asik/Jones

They get the player they covet from us. We get the big we have needed for years. We finish the season with a try out for Jones and Scott at PF. Then we bring Horford back next year.

I figure they won't trade Parsons to us.
We take on the massive salary next year. Next years squad would look like this Tentatively:

Asik/Bebe/Pero
Horf/Jones/Scott
Korver/DMCthealltimegreat
Draftpick/Lou Williams
Teague/Dennis/Mack

While people may complain about Asik not being a 20 ppg C.. He does help our rebounding and rim defense. He moves Horf to his "more natural" position. He also helps us groom Bebe.
We also have several good trading pieces.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#3 » by dms269 » Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:56 pm

I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#4 » by theatlfan » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:10 am

I really don't see our FO taking on Asik's balloon payment w/o significant sweetener from HOU. We've simply got too much debt to be paying a role player type (and yes, no O = role player) max money. Put it this way: when Asik "deadline" was in place, what teams were rumored to be interested in Asik? All were large market teams where going into the LT with a good team is basically automatic - that isn't what we are.

diesel50 wrote:Milsapp/Brand for Asik/Jones
yeah, I'd pass on 'Sap to HOU without Parsons coming back. Apparently, I hit a nerve with a HOU fan hard enough on the T&T board that there was a particular poll on just this. Consensus was that Millsap was the better player but Parsons had the better contract. OTOH, the deal I had proposed was that a 3rd team would take Asik (or Lin) and send any assets to HOU while sending contracts to us (not too wretched - no to Perkins, but I'd take back the Bass/Lee Package that BOS supposedly had on the table before the "deadline" expired.

BTW, I have seen some traction amount national authors around a Millsap/Korver for Monroe/Charlie V trade. I'd guess we should get a cherry on top of that (basically we take DET's 2 most glaring holes and make them huge positives) although what that cherry could and would be, I'm not too sure of. Anyway, I definitely don't see HOU as the team holding the cards in a Millsap deal - there are other teams that can make at least as attractive an offer.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#5 » by parson » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:26 am

I really think Millsap's priced himself out of Mr. Asik's neighborhood. And the difference between the 2 seems to be growing, with Morey trying (once again) to gin up Asik's value somehow - this time by hoping that someone is desperate for a post defender at the time of the trade deadline. Morey's big problem with that will be he'll have to send Asik to a competitor and I'm not sure he'll want to do that.

On our side of the bargain, out of Elton Brand, Jared Cunningham, Pero Antic, and either the rights to Lucas Nogueira OR a 2015 1st round pick (lottery protected), I'd most hate to lose Nogueira.

But Millsap for Asik is grossly underselling Millsap.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#6 » by parson » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:29 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.

This is from the Rockets' board:
Last 13 Games - 7 Double Doubles

15.9 PPG
10.6 RPG
2.2 BPG

.543 Shooting

Last 5 Games - 4 Double Doubles

21.6 PPG
12.2 RPG
3.0 BPG

.581 Shooting

link: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1285140&start=60

Yeah, they're kind of excited about him right about now.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#7 » by Vator » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:35 am

Yeah Jones has a 19.0 PER and just turned 22 on Jan. 9th. Millsap is about to be 29 on Feb. 10th and is putting up a 19.5 PER. Jones is making a strong case right now in only his 2nd season as being the 3rd best player on the team behind 2 max contract guys and even ahead of Parsons. He is a Josh Smith/Lamar Odom hybrid forward hopefully without the crazy. Now don't get me wrong, he isn't untouchable, but I think it would take more than Millsap/ expiring Brand to get him thrown into a package along with Asik. Although Millsap is really struggling right now with being the man, I really would love to have him on the Rockets and I believe wholeheartedly that Asik next to Horford would be very good for Horford's career, but Ferry and Morey are probably too busy trying to one up the other at the moment to come to an agreement that would be mutually beneficial. If you guys ever do get a legit center, Horford makes Millsap almost as redundant as Howard makes Asik on the Rockets.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#8 » by parson » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:22 am

Vator wrote:Horford makes Millsap almost as redundant as Howard makes Asik on the Rockets.

Some of us think Millsap would make a good SF and are dreaming of [Center]/Horford/Millsap as a frontline.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#9 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:31 am

parson wrote:
Vator wrote:Horford makes Millsap almost as redundant as Howard makes Asik on the Rockets.

Some of us think Millsap would make a good SF and are dreaming of [Center]/Horford/Millsap as a frontline.


Parsons, I love you, dude. But I seriously suspect no one else is dreaming of that. Millsap at SF does not sound awesome.

I'm with you 100% about adding a Center next to AL at PF. But, as good as Millsap is, moving him to SF seems to appeal to no one. Not even him (from what I hear from the Utah fans).

I'd rather play him from the bench for 30 mpg than start him at SF.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#10 » by diesel50 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:55 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.


Yeah, that's the thing though. To get a player back like Sap and to get anybody to take on Asik's balloon, it will take them giving up more than just Asik. It will take them giving up their young stud. I mean, otherwise, they can just keep that balloon contract and pay the LT next year. Moreover, as good as Jones is, they are not good enough to beat any of the elites in the West in the playoffs. Sap could be the player that makes the most since for them.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#11 » by dms269 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:56 am

diesel50 wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.


Yeah, that's the thing though. To get a player back like Sap and to get anybody to take on Asik's balloon, it will take them giving up more than just Asik. It will take them giving up their young stud. I mean, otherwise, they can just keep that balloon contract and pay the LT next year. Moreover, as good as Jones is, they are not good enough to beat any of the elites in the West in the playoffs. Sap could be the player that makes the most since for them.


I agree that Sap is worth more than Adik. However most Houston fans can't see it.

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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#12 » by Vator » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:46 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
diesel50 wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.


Yeah, that's the thing though. To get a player back like Sap and to get anybody to take on Asik's balloon, it will take them giving up more than just Asik. It will take them giving up their young stud. I mean, otherwise, they can just keep that balloon contract and pay the LT next year. Moreover, as good as Jones is, they are not good enough to beat any of the elites in the West in the playoffs. Sap could be the player that makes the most since for them.


I agree that Sap is worth more than Adik. However most Houston fans can't see it.

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Seems that way right? :lol: Truth is, I think a lot of Houston fans see the value in adding Millsap and acknowledge that it will take more than Asik at this point to land him. Now if Asik was playing and still able to put up 10 and 12 with elite defense, that would be debatable, but Asik's value has taken a hit with him refusing to play and most of us recognize that. Most people were trumpeting the 1 to 1 swap at the beginning of the year because at the time, they seemed to have similar value and their RAPM was in the same ballpark indicating a similar level of on court productivity. We needed a PF and Atlanta needed a center. Seemed like a perfect fit, but Asik's stock dropped while Millsap's went up. The ones that don't acknowledge this just so happen to be a little more vocal and adamant about holding on to his production from last year. Honestly I would give up Asik and D. Mo for Millsap or Asik and a future 1st, but Morey seems to be wanting to keep the picks for his delusional Kevin Love trade that he is gearing up for. Kevin Love is probably the biggest reason Millsap is the preferred target by many Houston fans because some reports suggest that he has already declined guys like Thaddeus Young and Jeff Green because of the length of the contracts hindering 2015 free agency whereas Millsap's ends.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#13 » by Vator » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:05 pm

diesel50 wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:I can't see them trading Jones. They are crazy high on him as a player.


Yeah, that's the thing though. To get a player back like Sap and to get anybody to take on Asik's balloon, it will take them giving up more than just Asik. It will take them giving up their young stud. I mean, otherwise, they can just keep that balloon contract and pay the LT next year. Moreover, as good as Jones is, they are not good enough to beat any of the elites in the West in the playoffs. Sap could be the player that makes the most since for them.


Houston is in no danger whatsoever of paying the luxury tax.

Terrence Jones is not just a throw in. There is no need to dump Asik's salary. There is a need to trade him for quality depth or a quality player. Not having Asik has hurt the Rockets big time this season. He is exactly what the team needs, but he doesn't want to be there and that is unfortunate. Asik is an absolute beast on defense. In many ways he is better than Howard, but Howard is a better shot blocker and guys don't challenge him as much.

Millsap is an upgrade over Jones no doubt, but how much is debatable. Having Millsap AND Jones makes the Rockets more formidable and more of a threat against the elite teams, but Millsap instead of Jones is just addition by subtraction. When you take away arguably your 3rd best player and replace him with another guy that will be your 3rd best player at the exact same position, how much better do you really get at the end of the day? Then you give up a guy that was your 2nd best player last year on top of that. Asik/Jones for Millsap just feels like you're not getting enough value for one of those guys is all I'm saying. With a little more seasoning and an improved jumper, Jones is a bigger Millsap, 7 years younger, and on a rookie contract.

Maybe you guys keep Millsap and figure out how to trade some other things for Asik like this article suggests. At this point, I honestly don't care. I'm just ready to move on, but Jones doesn't move with Asik unless it is in a bigger deal for that 3rd long term piece to go along with Harden and Howard.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#14 » by PandaKidd » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:03 pm

yeah dont sign me up for the Millsap at Starting SF role. WOOD NOT WANT.

Millsap/Horford/Asik , no thanks. If we acquire Asik, we will need a more athletic/shooting SF. A Parsons type, not a Millsap type
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#15 » by diesel50 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:02 pm

Vator wrote:
I agree that Sap is worth more than Adik. However most Houston fans can't see it.

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Seems that way right? :lol: Truth is, I think a lot of Houston fans see the value in adding Millsap and acknowledge that it will take more than Asik at this point to land him. Now if Asik was playing and still able to put up 10 and 12 with elite defense, that would be debatable, but Asik's value has taken a hit with him refusing to play and most of us recognize that. Most people were trumpeting the 1 to 1 swap at the beginning of the year because at the time, they seemed to have similar value and their RAPM was in the same ballpark indicating a similar level of on court productivity. We needed a PF and Atlanta needed a center. Seemed like a perfect fit, but Asik's stock dropped while Millsap's went up. The ones that don't acknowledge this just so happen to be a little more vocal and adamant about holding on to his production from last year. Honestly I would give up Asik and D. Mo for Millsap or Asik and a future 1st, but Morey seems to be wanting to keep the picks for his delusional Kevin Love trade that he is gearing up for. Kevin Love is probably the biggest reason Millsap is the preferred target by many Houston fans because some reports suggest that he has already declined guys like Thaddeus Young and Jeff Green because of the length of the contracts hindering 2015 free agency whereas Millsap's ends.



To your point Vator, Sap has gone up while Asik has gone down. Not mentioned in this discussion is Asik's knee. If we trade our best player Sap for Asik right now and take some unproven along with him, the trade becomes Sap for unproven plus Asik's knee and balloon contract. We can't do that. I wrote out Sap/Brand for Asik/Jones because it's fair. We take the risk of Asik's knee. We take on Asik's contract and you guys get our best player... a player who makes you guys able to contend with the elite teams in the West. Let's be honest, the midrange game of Sap's is only rivaled by Kevin Love and Ryan Anderson... and Sap is IMO a better inside player than Anderson. That's provable. So what would make your team better is getting a guy who doesn't have to be in D-12 space (like Jones is) and at the same time can go into D-12 space and operate when D-12 is on the bench. Morey is right, Kevin Love is the perfect fit... but he wants to be a Laker. The best you can do with Love is try to throw as much as you can at Minny right now and hope that they take your crap for Kevin Love. OR you can deal with us, get Sap and then decide in the offseason to use him to get Love or to keep him as a poor man's Love.
IF I were looking for a Frontcourt mate for D-12, those are the only three names that makes sense: Love, Sap, and Anderson... in that order.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#16 » by diesel50 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:13 pm

parson wrote:
Vator wrote:Horford makes Millsap almost as redundant as Howard makes Asik on the Rockets.

Some of us think Millsap would make a good SF and are dreaming of [Center]/Horford/Millsap as a frontline.


This is the problem that we have had for years. We have a logjam and then we just disrespect the skillset of other positions to try and fix it. It's very Billy Knightish to think that you can just sub and plug players without respect for the skillsets needed.

For all the people who talk about how great a Big man Horf is, at the end of the day, Horf is a high post, face up PF. He doesn't have a strong low post game. He doesn't have a midrange game. When you consider what happened with Smoove... Smoove was a tweener who didn't want to play to his strength (drive) but rather tried to make himself into a midrange/outside shooting Ryan Anderson type of PF. The problem with both of them together was that Smoove couldn't really shoot from distance and nobody played inside that well. Enter Sap. Sap is a midrange PF who can play some lowpost (similar to Horf) but doesn't have a strong goto move in the post. This works better than Horf/Smoove offensively because Sap can shoot from the midrange well. However, just becausee he has a good midrange shot doesn't make him a Sf. The SF or wing in basketball ought to be able to shoot from distance AND to be able to put the ball on the floor, pass, or drive. Sap is not that. Sap only has the part where he can shoot from midrange but not from outside. Sap is not the driver or passer that you need to make him a Sf. If you wanted that, then you should have kept Smoove and you would have had 2 of 3 .
Right now, Korver and DMC platoon at the Sf position very well. You get all things because both guys are specialist. What Atlanta really needs is a big and a Guard. A big who can establish low post scoring and defense and a guard who can shoot from outside, be a scorer and defend the perimeter.

Let's stop this repurposing people because we have them and let's get into real team building.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#17 » by azuresou1 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:26 pm

I am and have always been very high on Terrence Jones, and I've maintained all along that he would need to be coming back to Atlanta in any trade where we send out Millsap.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#18 » by azuresou1 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:27 pm

Minus the whole stomping on homeless dudes part.
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#19 » by Vator » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:56 pm

diesel50 wrote:To your point Vator, Sap has gone up while Asik has gone down. Not mentioned in this discussion is Asik's knee. If we trade our best player Sap for Asik right now and take some unproven along with him, the trade becomes Sap for unproven plus Asik's knee and balloon contract. We can't do that. I wrote out Sap/Brand for Asik/Jones because it's fair. We take the risk of Asik's knee. We take on Asik's contract and you guys get our best player... a player who makes you guys able to contend with the elite teams in the West. Let's be honest, the midrange game of Sap's is only rivaled by Kevin Love and Ryan Anderson... and Sap is IMO a better inside player than Anderson. That's provable. So what would make your team better is getting a guy who doesn't have to be in D-12 space (like Jones is) and at the same time can go into D-12 space and operate when D-12 is on the bench. Morey is right, Kevin Love is the perfect fit... but he wants to be a Laker. The best you can do with Love is try to throw as much as you can at Minny right now and hope that they take your crap for Kevin Love. OR you can deal with us, get Sap and then decide in the offseason to use him to get Love or to keep him as a poor man's Love.
IF I were looking for a Frontcourt mate for D-12, those are the only three names that makes sense: Love, Sap, and Anderson... in that order.


Good points with Millsap's ability to step out which is the main reason why I do acknowledge that he would be an upgrade over Jones along with his experience as far as defensive rotations and little things like that that don't show up in the boxscores that Jones is sill trying to figure out. Millsap is certainly an upgrade, but he is also very small. I don't know for sure if he puts you over the top when guys can just shoot right over him with no problem. With Horford out, I think he has pretty much shown that he is best cast as a 2nd or 3rd option which does make him a really solid fit in Houston. On your end, he has one year left on his contract after this. Is he even really in Atlanta's future plans? He'll be 30 next season and 31 in his new contract year. If Jones can finish the year up strong, I would say that Jones being 7 years younger and putting up competitive numbers per 36 would be fairly close in value around the NBA to Millsap when factoring age, productivity, and contract. Take a look at how their advanced stats compare for yourself. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2014

So is it really fair to say the difference between Jones and Millsap warrants an Omer Asik caliber player? I think Jones and Asik for Millsap is just as unrealistic as us trying to do an Asik for Millsap straight up swap from your perspective.

I wouldn't blink if we traded you Asik and a 1st because I know Millsap would make the Rockets better and I for one am not holding onto this Kevin Love pipe dream and Asik is refusing to play. One discouraging thing is I would like to think that if Asik and a 2014 1st was offered that this deal would have been consummated already as I know you guys would probably welcome the pick with open arms.

As far as the injury, there are rumblings that Asik's mysterious injury is indeed bogus, but we'll find out sooner or later. It was first reported as a thigh bruise and then changed to something else after time went by. How in the world does a thigh bruise keep a guy out of action for months?
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Re: Yet another Asik to the Hawks Article. 

Post#20 » by diesel50 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:09 pm

Vator wrote:
Good points with Millsap's ability to step out which is the main reason why I do acknowledge that he would be an upgrade over Jones along with his experience as far as defensive rotations and little things like that that don't show up in the boxscores that Jones is sill trying to figure out. Millsap is certainly an upgrade, but he is also very small. I don't know for sure if he puts you over the top when guys can just shoot right over him with no problem. With Horford out, I think he has pretty much shown that he is best cast as a 2nd or 3rd option which does make him a really solid fit in Houston. On your end, he has one year left on his contract after this. Is he even really in Atlanta's future plans? He'll be 30 next season and 31 in his new contract year. If Jones can finish the year up strong, I would say that Jones being 7 years younger and putting up competitive numbers per 36 would be fairly close in value around the NBA to Millsap when factoring age, productivity, and contract. Take a look at how their advanced stats compare for yourself. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2014

So is it really fair to say the difference between Jones and Millsap warrants an Omer Asik caliber player? I think Jones and Asik for Millsap is just as unrealistic as us trying to do an Asik for Millsap straight up swap from your perspective.

I wouldn't blink if we traded you Asik and a 1st because I know Millsap would make the Rockets better and I for one am not holding onto this Kevin Love pipe dream and Asik is refusing to play. One discouraging thing is I would like to think that if Asik and a 2014 1st was offered that this deal would have been consummated already as I know you guys would probably welcome the pick with open arms.

As far as the injury, there are rumblings that Asik's mysterious injury is indeed bogus, but we'll find out sooner or later. It was first reported as a thigh bruise and then changed to something else after time went by. How in the world does a thigh bruise keep a guy out of action for months?


Well, here's the deal from where I sit. You said Asik/Jones for Millsap is unrealistic. That's why I added Brand. Brand brings toughness. But back to Asik/Jones. Asik is not the Asik of last year. He is the Asik of been injured for a while now. Unfortunately, your Coach K. McHale made mention of all kind of fluid on Asik's knee. If this was just Asik speaking that would be one thing but your coach saying it makes me think that he has spoken to the team doctor and the injury is legit. Again in sending us Asik, you're asking us to gamble... Asik's knee and his contract for our best player. Let's not fool each other in believing that a first from Houston with Sap means anything. Hawks fans have been on the treadmill long enough to know that those late first rounders are bigger crapshoots than Asik's knee.
If I were a Houston fan, I too would want to stick it to the Hawks and give them damaged goods with a balloon contract, a worthless pick for their best player that makes us a better contender... Doesn't that sound great... and I can talk about how Good Asik used to play before the injury. Unfortunately, we are a fan base that traded for Terrell Brandon and Speedy Claxton. So we know what having somebody blow smoke up our ass feels like. It's very simple... we will take Asik's contract off your hands, give you a shot at winning the championship, and give you an enforcer to help inside because D-12 is not that... and all we ask in return is for young prospect at PF - T. Jones.
Now here's the truth... You guys can keep T Jones and you will miss the chance to win the championship this year. You guys should know from your stint with Hakeem, Clyde, and Barkley with Pippen that winning a championship is about timing. What is possible today.. may not be possible tomorrow when The Lakers have gotten better, the Blazer have gotten better, and New Orleans starts to find the secret to winning. You guys could go down as a team who had a shot but had too many bad contracts to capitalize off your chance.
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