Teague vs. Mack vs. Dennis.

diesel50 · Post #1 » by **diesel50** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:34 pm

How shall we continue this season?

It seems that Teague is slumping. I don't think it's a lack of knowing the plays, I think it's just thinking too much and not hitting the shots he wants to hit. However, it raises a question. Do we keep the rotation as is or do we look and see what Mack or Dennis have in their tank. I know, I know.. the bench guy always looks good when the starter is slumping but the starter is a starter for a reason. My question is more about the future. Mack is only signed to the end of this season. To me... He seems better equipped for our future than does Dennis. There's not a big age difference. Dennis still has value (as does Teague), if we were to look at our trade pieces of value, Dennis has to be in the conversation for now.

What do you think?

parson · Post #2 » by **parson** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:45 am

It's not rocket science. Each guy earns his minutes.

Schröder needs to stop the turnovers before he plays more.

Post #3 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:00 am

^How can he stop the turnovers if he's not playing?

Post #4 » by **ATL Boy** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:26 am

idk why this is even a question? Of course we stick with Teague! People need to stop overreacting because of a slump, he's the most talented PG on the roster and is best equipped to help us win now. Not to mention the fact that he's signed in to a 4 year/$32 million contract.

As for the future, it's Schröder: he has all the tools for success and has the potential to be great. Mack is merely a stopgap this season. There's no way we're trading Dennis right now while his value is at a drastic low. I want coach Bud to throw him into the fire this season so he can learn through trial and error (the most effective way of learning imo). Mack has been excellent and I think we should let him and Schröder split the backup PG minutes this year: I get what you guys are saying about Dennis having to earn his minutes, but what kind of a message does it send to such a young player when he's benched for weeks at a time because he commits a few turnovers, let the kid learn from his mistakes.

Post #5 » by **dms269** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:57 am

Jamaaliver wrote:^How can he stop the turnovers if he's not playing?

Practice?

I mean he played 19 minutes in the Brooklyn game and had 3 turnovers. I would think that I could have less than 3 turnovers if I played with oven mits on my hands.

Post #6 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:54 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:^How can he stop the turnovers if he's not playing?

Practice?

I mean he played 19 minutes in the Brooklyn game and had 3 turnovers. I would think that I could have less than 3 turnovers if I played with oven mits on my hands.

I thought Dennis was sitting on the bench to learn how to play the game.

I didn't realize were punishing him like a little child. Putting him in a timeout. That seems...smart?

That'll teach him to attempt to make tough plays in difficult situations.

I just can't think of a single situation where NOT playing basketball has made a young player better.

Post #7 » by **dms269** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:15 am

Jamaaliver wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:^How can he stop the turnovers if he's not playing?

Practice?

I mean he played 19 minutes in the Brooklyn game and had 3 turnovers. I would think that I could have less than 3 turnovers if I played with oven mits on my hands.

I thought Dennis was sitting on the bench to learn how to play the game.

I didn't realize were punishing him like a little child. Putting him in a timeout. That seems...smart?

That'll teach him to attempt to make tough plays in difficult situations.

I just can't think of a single situation where NOT playing basketball has made a young player better.

And letting him have free reign so he can turn the ball over every 6 minutes is smart?

When he shows improvements he will get more minutes...As Bud has done. The problem is he reverts to his to prone self way too frequently.

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Post #8 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:37 am

uga_dawgs24 wrote:And letting him have free reign so he can turn the ball over every 6 minutes is smart?

We let Josh do it for 6 years...as a PF.

And free reign....sounds a bit heavy. More like leeway. Room to make mistakes.

parson · Post #9 » by **parson** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:59 am

Yeah, but PG is different - he's the heart and mind of the coach. Personally, I think Budenholzer's tipping his hand by his rough treatment of Schröder. I think he has plans for him but wants him on the same page with him.

I agree that kids need to play, and I complained whenever young Teague was benched by Drew. The difference is, Teague got benched after good games but Dennis gets benched only after careless play. For Teague, there was no reward if he did well but for Dennis, there is definitely a punishment if he plays thoughtlessly.

cdogg · Post #10 » by **cdogg** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:44 am

Dennis needs to play more, this season was over when Al got hurt. imo the best way to learn the tempo of the nba is to play.

diesel50 · Post #11 » by **diesel50** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:29 am

Improvement has to be rewarded. Teague was drafted from college as a guy who was a 1/1 A/TO guy. During his time here, he improved that tremendously year by year, starting with his first year. Even when he was not rewarded, he still showed improvement. I know Schroeder is young, but this guy has been playing INTNTL ball for years. The comment on him has been... flashy buy TO prone. Hawks fans have fell in love with flashy but he is doing nothing to change. I think his attitude is similar to Smoove who believed that he could shoot from outside. Just from watching him, his body language on the court, he shows no humility. I understand his benching. But here's my problem. Shelvin Mack. Even here, he has been called a stop gap.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=macksh01&y1=2014&p2=teaguje01&y2=2014&p3=schrode01&y3=2014#per_game::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=macksh01&y1=2014&p2=teaguje01&y2=2014&p3=schrode01&y3=2014#advanced::none

If you look at the per 36 and advanced stats, they make a strong case for Mack...Maybe not Mack being the starter but Mack being the 2nd string guy... and that may change over time, but Dennis is not showing any fight to make it change. What I mean by that is He's still doing the same thing he has done.

Post #12 » by **dms269** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:10 pm

diesel50 wrote:Improvement has to be rewarded. Teague was drafted from college as a guy who was a 1/1 A/TO guy. During his time here, he improved that tremendously year by year, starting with his first year. Even when he was not rewarded, he still showed improvement. I know Schroeder is young, but this guy has been playing INTNTL ball for years. The comment on him has been... flashy buy TO prone. Hawks fans have fell in love with flashy but he is doing nothing to change. I think his attitude is similar to Smoove who believed that he could shoot from outside. Just from watching him, his body language on the court, he shows no humility. I understand his benching. But here's my problem. Shelvin Mack. Even here, he has been called a stop gap.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=macksh01&y1=2014&p2=teaguje01&y2=2014&p3=schrode01&y3=2014#per_game::none

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=macksh01&y1=2014&p2=teaguje01&y2=2014&p3=schrode01&y3=2014#advanced::none

If you look at the per 36 and advanced stats, they make a strong case for Mack...Maybe not Mack being the starter but Mack being the 2nd string guy... and that may change over time, but Dennis is not showing any fight to make it change. What I mean by that is He's still doing the same thing he has done.

Improvement has been rewarded. He has had good games and got rewarded with more minutes.

He had 0 tos in the Orlando game, an came back with 2 quick ones in 6 minutes in the Boston and got benched.

Look at the start of the season. He did well, got minutes, then the to bug hit.

Post #13 » by **dms269** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:11 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:And letting him have free reign so he can turn the ball over every 6 minutes is smart?

We let Josh do it for 6 years...as a PF.

And free reign....sounds a bit heavy. More like leeway. Room to make mistakes.

However Josh was not there with Bud. I thought we were trying to change the atmosphere of the team and how we played. Part of the reason why Josh is no longer here.

PandaKidd · Post #14 » by **PandaKidd** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:09 pm

I think diesel50 needs to start more threads ...........

LOL

I appreciate the talk and activity, but lets condense it down to 1 thread, i think we have that right?

PandaKidd · Post #15 » by **PandaKidd** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:12 pm

parson wrote:Yeah, but PG is different - he's the heart and mind of the coach. Personally, I think Budenholzer's tipping his hand by his rough treatment of Schröder. I think he has plans for him but wants him on the same page with him.

I agree that kids need to play, and I complained whenever young Teague was benched by Drew. The difference is, Teague got benched after good games but Dennis gets benched only after careless play. For Teague, there was no reward if he did well but for Dennis, there is definitely a punishment if he plays thoughtlessly.

Teague is the starting PG we just gave a pretty big deal to. hes going to play.

Schroeder, honestly, I have seen him play about 20 times, and every time, I dont like him. The game is INCREDIBLY too fast for him, he has VERY little range on his outside shot, if any. He hesitates, he doesnt let the game come to him, every pass I see him make he waits too long or he forces it.

He looks like the scared kid in a pickup game playing with superstars. Unsure of himself.

I also see him bitch and moan on defense and get lazy when he commits a T/O.

Play him in garbage time, or send him to the D League

Post #16 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:48 pm

uga_dawgs24 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
uga_dawgs24 wrote:And letting him have free reign so he can turn the ball over every 6 minutes is smart?

We let Josh do it for 6 years...as a PF.

And free reign....sounds a bit heavy. More like leeway. Room to make mistakes.

However Josh was not there with Bud. I thought we were trying to change the atmosphere of the team and how we played. Part of the reason why Josh is no longer here.

I just can't think of a situation where a young player NOT playing at all has been more beneficial than at least some consistent PT. Even sparingly.

NOT playing destroys confidence. Leads to poor relationships between coach and player. Lowers trade value.

5 minutes at the end of the 1st quarter and start of the 2nd quarter wouldn't really destroy the entire team would it? Especially with the way the team has been played of late.

diesel50 wrote: I think [Dennis'] attitude is similar to Smoove

Then cut him now! SMOOVE was cancer.

If they have anything in common AT ALL...end him. TODAY!!!

azuresou1 · Post #17 » by **azuresou1** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:10 pm

I would like to see Dennis get some regular minutes, even if it's only 5-8 minutes per game, at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarter. Most players need some sense of their role to produce and develop.

That said, he doesn't deserve major minutes at this point. Minutes should be the carrot for him to really work on his game,

Post #18 » by **Jamaaliver** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:20 pm

azuresou1 wrote:I would like to see Dennis get some regular minutes, even if it's only 5-8 minutes per game, at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarter. Most players need some sense of their role to produce and develop.

Agreed. Just some consistent minutes to see what type of progress he's made. Nothing major or earth shattering. Just enough to see him make adjustments.

parson · Post #19 » by **parson** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:50 pm

But we need to acknowledge that we do not know what's happening behind the scenes. Budenholzer and Dennis may not be seeing eye-to-eye. Dennis may be stubborn.

Rip2137 · Post #20 » by **Rip2137** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:51 pm

The D League offers consistent minutes but people act like the kid is getting spat on for sending him there.

Bottomline, he isn't getting minutes because all of our games are incredibly close. When your games are that close, you can't afford to give 8 minutes to a guy that not only turns the ball over, but the BAD turnovers. He goes out and 1 - gets the opposing team to the bonus sooner because he is playing overly aggressive defense and he is tossing the NBA equivalent of pick 6's on offense where not only is he turning the ball over, they are the lead to fast break varieties. How many games are you willing to lose so that you can find out if one guy MIGHT be a player worth investing in?

I criticized Woodson because he wouldn't play young players in blowouts, when we were CLEARLY out of the playoff race, when they were outplaying the guy in front of them, after great games...anything..This isn't the same case. Dennis lost his minutes to another young player. D-League him, get him more minutes if there is a injury, but he has got to earn some minutes.