Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL?

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

Chicago76
Rookie
Posts: 1,134
And1: 229
Joined: Jan 08, 2006

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#61 » by Chicago76 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:15 am

Grandpa Waiters wrote:I have a book called "Loose Balls". It's a book about the ABA comprised of tidbits and interviews conducted with players, coaches, executives and announcers like Bob Costas who were a part of the league. The general consensus was that the top tier stars (Erving, Moses, Thompson, Gervin, Gilmore, Barry etc) were NBA caliber but that the second tier players were not. Also, it was a run and gun league full of gimmicks used to inflate stats (3 pointers) and attract fans (red, white and blue ball, dunk contest etc). Most of the players who only played in the ABA claimed it was on par with the NBA but the players who transitioned made it clear that the NBA was a superior league all the way around including competition. Their words, not mine. Anyway, it's a good read, check it out if the ABA interests you.


I've read Loose Balls a few times (although its been 10 years or so since the last time) and I've had the opportunity to talk with at least a dozen guys who are responsible for some of the narrative/interviews in that book. If what you got out of the book is that the ABA guys thought the NBA was superior all the way around, then you really need to re-read the book, making sure to distinguish between ABA interviews and NBA interviews on the league. I can tell you that no ABA player thought they were playing in an inferior league from a talent standpoint. Cliff notes version: league started inferior, within 3 years they had engineered backloaded contracts to siphon off NBA talent and rookies. They took vet refs to improve the court product. They lacked TV dollars and deep pockets. They tried to force a merger, blocked by the Robertson legislation. In exhibition games, the ABA held the all time edge 79-76. Over the last 3 years of intraleague play, the ABA held the edge 62-34. There were offers from multiple ABA title winners to play the NBA champs in a winner take all series. The NBA never bit. Arguably, the NBA could reason they had nothing to gain from an ABA-NBA series, but if they were that confident in their superiority, they could have buried the ABA by decisively defeating them in a championship series. They didn't. As acrossthecourt noted, the combined league in 77 was stronger than either the ABA or NBA in 76, but NBA players suffered a greater decline in terms of WS/48 and other pace adjusted metrics. Back in 2003 or 2004, I did work looking at guys who jumped leagues and noted parity was roughly achieved around 1972. Going into 75-76 the league began to crack due to lack of funds (and player losses), but contraction kept things at parity. 5 of 10 starters in the 77 finals were ABA guys. FWIW-the league wasn't "swept under a rug". They were forced to capitulate due to financial concerns, losing needed draft picks and TV dollars in the process. The truth is, the NBA of the 80s (and today) resembles the ABA game of the 70s much more than it does the NBA game of the same era.

If you want to understand why Erving didn't rebound at the same level in the NBA, the reasons are fairly obvious. First, when Erving entered the league, he played PF and SF. He was closer to the basket and therefore got more boards. so when he transitioned to more of a pure SF role (and later a SF/SG hybrid wing role), his rebound rate naturally fell from 16.4 to 13.6. Note: look at rates, not averages, because there were more misses in the ABA as well. Secondly, when he left the Nets, he went to a team with better rebounders (many of them ex-ABA guys from other teams). Third, if you want to apply this standard to Erving, you should also apply it to NBA players of the same era. Kareem never duplicated the production and impact he had from ages 22-24 in the 1970/71 - 1972/73 seasons. This is more curious because his role didn't change as much as Ervings, he didn't switch leagues, and centers typically take longer to fully mature than athletic, penetrating wing players. Just about every high profile player who entered the league around the time of Kareem had their most productive seasons pre-merger and abnormally early in their careers: Unseld, McAdoo, Cowens, Tiny, Dandridge, etc, etc etc. Lanier was one of the few to buck the trend.

It wasn't that that ABA was inferior to the NBA. It was that the NBA, post 1976, was stronger than both the ABA and NBA of the prior era.
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#62 » by wigglestrue » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:03 am

:-o

Off-topic:

Chicago76 is...the Michael Jordan of this board, or something? And I mean that in a good way. ;) Reading him drop knowledge and reasoning in each post is kind of like watching Jordan drop 40+ over and over. Hmmm...

TrueLAFan is clearly the Magic, his years of dispensing history generously = a mountainous total of assists. It's hilarious that ballboys signing up just now will only see 21 And1s under TLAF's belt, lol. Kids, he is the all-time leader, have no doubt. Going with this further, Doctor MJ makes for a pretty good Dr. J equivalent. How far can this be taken? Has this been done before? If not, is it worth doing? (p.s. Fun fact: This is how the very first ATL draft was born here, in a comment of mine like this.) If we do it, all I ask for is dibs on being Heinsohn, haha.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#63 » by ardee » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:12 am

wigglestrue wrote::-o

Off-topic:

Chicago76 is...the Michael Jordan of this board, or something? And I mean that in a good way. ;) Reading him drop knowledge in each post is kind of like watching Jordan drop 40+ over and over. Hmmm...

TrueLAFan is clearly the Magic, his years of dispensing history generously = a mountainous total of assists. It's hilarious that ballboys signing up just now will only see 21 And1s under TLAF's belt, lol. Kids, he is the all-time leader, have no doubt. Going with this further, Doctor MJ makes for a pretty good Dr. J equivalent. How far can this be taken? Has this been done before? If not, is it worth doing? (p.s. Fun fact: This is how the very first ATL draft was born here, in a comment of mine like this.) If we do it, all I ask for is dibs on being Heinsohn, haha.


ElGee is Duncan.

Dipper is Russ.

ShaqAttack is LeBron.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app
lorak
Head Coach
Posts: 6,317
And1: 2,237
Joined: Nov 23, 2009

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#64 » by lorak » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:37 am

wigglestrue wrote::-o

Off-topic:

Chicago76 is...the Michael Jordan of this board, or something? And I mean that in a good way. ;) Reading him drop knowledge in each post is kind of like watching Jordan drop 40+ over and over. Hmmm...

TrueLAFan is clearly the Magic, his years of dispensing history generously = a mountainous total of assists. It's hilarious that ballboys signing up just now will only see 21 And1s under TLAF's belt, lol. Kids, he is the all-time leader, have no doubt. Going with this further, Doctor MJ makes for a pretty good Dr. J equivalent. How far can this be taken? Has this been done before? If not, is it worth doing? (p.s. Fun fact: This is how the very first ATL draft was born here, in a comment of mine like this.) If we do it, all I ask for is dibs on being Heinsohn, haha.



Chicago76 is one of the best posters, no doubt, but definitely fatal9 = Michael Jordan. (And TLAF is IMO equivalent of Wilt - his stats [posts] look great, but not so much impact [deep insights]]
User avatar
Quotatious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,999
And1: 11,145
Joined: Nov 15, 2013

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#65 » by Quotatious » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:19 pm

ardee wrote:ElGee is Duncan.

Dipper is Russ.

ShaqAttack is LeBron.

Doctor MJ to me is Jordan. The GOAT, and even his nickname is very fitting.

Tsherkin is Kareem. GOAT candidate, great volume, efficiency and longevity.

SideshowBob is probably Russell.

Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.

DavidStern is Larry Bird. Very fundamentally sound (great knowledge about all kinds of stats etc., but not a volume scorer/poster, very well-rounded, but not a top tier guy in terms of defense).

Green Apple is Bill Walton. Amazing at his peak, but totally lacks durability. :lol:

I'd like to say that I'm Charles Barkley, because I'm very efficient, volume poster (check my post to and-1 ratio 8-) , can finish through contact and get and-1's easily, but another thing we have in common is laziness and very bad defense, but:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxuynicf9rI[/youtube]

I feel like I'm a dumbass at times as well. :lol:

I'd really like to compare someone to Shaq, but no one really comes to mind.
bastillon
Head Coach
Posts: 6,927
And1: 666
Joined: Feb 13, 2009
Location: Poland
   

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#66 » by bastillon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:36 pm

FushengTheGreat is Vernon Maxwell. wants to kill MJ.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#67 » by wigglestrue » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:05 am

Is it worth actually starting a new thread about? (And if so, can someone who would do that way better than me do it, lol?)
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#68 » by ardee » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:19 am

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:ElGee is Duncan.

Dipper is Russ.

ShaqAttack is LeBron.

Doctor MJ to me is Jordan. The GOAT, and even his nickname is very fitting.

Tsherkin is Kareem. GOAT candidate, great volume, efficiency and longevity.

SideshowBob is probably Russell.

Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.

DavidStern is Larry Bird. Very fundamentally sound (great knowledge about all kinds of stats etc., but not a volume scorer/poster, very well-rounded, but not a top tier guy in terms of defense).

Green Apple is Bill Walton. Amazing at his peak, but totally lacks durability. :lol:

I'd like to say that I'm Charles Barkley, because I'm very efficient, volume poster (check my post to and-1 ratio 8-) , can finish through contact and get and-1's easily, but another thing we have in common is laziness and very bad defense, but:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxuynicf9rI[/youtube]

I feel like I'm a dumbass at times as well. :lol:

I'd really like to compare someone to Shaq, but no one really comes to mind.


Who would you say I am?
User avatar
Quotatious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,999
And1: 11,145
Joined: Nov 15, 2013

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#69 » by Quotatious » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:21 am

ardee wrote:Who would you say I am?

I was actually thinking about that, and Nash is the first guy who came to my mind, I don't really know why. :D
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#70 » by wigglestrue » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:44 am

Quotatious wrote:Tsherkin is Kareem. GOAT candidate, great volume, efficiency and longevity.



Tsherkin is totally Kareem.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#71 » by ardee » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:01 am

Quotatious wrote:
ardee wrote:Who would you say I am?

I was actually thinking about that, and Nash is the first guy who came to my mind, I don't really know why. :D


I'm cool with that. He's one of my 3 favorite players.

As long as I don't have to use that haircut.

And I would say you're like Anthony Davis.

You've only been here a short time but you're bringing a lot to the table and dominating threads :wink:
User avatar
Quotatious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,999
And1: 11,145
Joined: Nov 15, 2013

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#72 » by Quotatious » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:10 am

ardee wrote:I'm cool with that. He's one of my 3 favorite players.

The other two are Dirk and Wilt, right? Or maybe Dirk and West or Kobe? I'm pretty sure it's one of those...
ardee wrote:As long as I don't have to use that haircut.

And I would say you're like Anthony Davis.

You've only been here a short time but you're bringing a lot to the table and dominating threads :wink:

I like that, as long as my eyebrows don't have to look like that:

Image
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#73 » by wigglestrue » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:13 pm

Hey so what's the deal with Jordan losing in '89 and '90? He had a really good team. Pippen was pretty much a mini-Pippen by then, in the playoffs, in that '89 series where the Pistons won in 6. Grant was about as good as Grant ever was in that series, too. Sure, yeah, Cartwright was below-average...but, didn't Jordan later win with Longley and Wennington later? I'd almost rather have Cartwright than Longley or Wennington. And, oh, hey, wait, the center was also Cartwright, in 1991, and in 1992, and in 1993, when they had no problem winning the championship. So what was the problem in 1989? Cartwright was better and younger then. Why did the Bulls lose? Seems like the Pistons contained Jordan, nearly even stifled him by Jordanesque standards, especially the '89 vintage. So, why does Jordan not get any flack for 1989 or 1990? Bird gets oodles of flack for 1982 and 1983. What are the differences? The Pistons went on to win the title, and were both years among the best defenses in league history. But who did Bird lose to in '82 and '83? He lost in 7 to a 58-win Sixers led by Dr. J who then lost in 6 to the '82 Lakers. Where's the shame in that? Okay, fine he was smoked the next season by the '83 Bucks, swept, embarrassed. But it's not like those Bucks were mediocre. They had won 51 games, and were teeming with underrated players, like Marques Johnson, a still-quite-effective Bob Lanier, the ferocious Alton Lister, and of course the reigning DPOY Sidney Moncrief. There's not nearly as much shame in that series fail as some portray. Besides, it's just one year, one loss to an underrated team, just like Dr. J's 1984 more or less. But somehow the Jordan legend has built up some sort of partition of infallibility which hides from our sight the playoff failures of Jordan in '89 and '90. Something about how HCA is the key determinant, because, naturally, that premise favors Jordan the most and obscures his shortcomings the best, lol. Or am I way off?
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
Grandpa Waiters
Banned User
Posts: 465
And1: 89
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#74 » by Grandpa Waiters » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:56 pm

wigglestrue wrote:Hey so what's the deal with Jordan losing in '89 and '90? He had a really good team. Pippen was pretty much a mini-Pippen by then, in the playoffs, in that '89 series where the Pistons won in 6. Grant was about as good as Grant ever was in that series, too. Sure, yeah, Cartwright was below-average...but, didn't Jordan later win with Longley and Wennington later? I'd almost rather have Cartwright than Longley or Wennington. And, oh, hey, wait, the center was also Cartwright, in 1991, and in 1992, and in 1993, when they had no problem winning the championship. So what was the problem in 1989? Cartwright was better and younger then. Why did the Bulls lose? Seems like the Pistons contained Jordan, nearly even stifled him by Jordanesque standards, especially the '89 vintage. So, why does Jordan not get any flack for 1989 or 1990? Bird gets oodles of flack for 1982 and 1983. What are the differences? The Pistons went on to win the title, and were both years among the best defenses in league history. But who did Bird lose to in '82 and '83? He lost in 7 to a 58-win Sixers led by Dr. J who then lost in 6 to the '82 Lakers. Where's the shame in that? Okay, fine he was smoked the next season by the '83 Bucks, swept, embarrassed. But it's not like those Bucks were mediocre. They had won 51 games, and were teeming with underrated players, like Marques Johnson, a still-quite-effective Bob Lanier, the ferocious Alton Lister, and of course the reigning DPOY Sidney Moncrief. There's not nearly as much shame in that series fail as some portray. Besides, it's just one year, one loss to an underrated team, just like Dr. J's 1984 more or less. But somehow the Jordan legend has built up some sort of partition of infallibility which hides from our sight the playoff failures of Jordan in '89 and '90. Something about how HCA is the key determinant, because, naturally, that premise favors Jordan the most and obscures his shortcomings the best, lol. Or am I way off?


Cartwright was aquired after the '88 season for Oakley, who was viewed as expendable after the Bulls drafted Horace Grant. Pippen and Grant were still babies in '88-'89, just their second year in the league. That season was also the first full season the future championship lineup played together (Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright and Paxson). Jordan was ready to win at that point but the Bulls were not. Still too young, no bench and not quite gelled at that point. However, even in defeat, the Bulls came closer to beating the Pistons than any other team (lost 4-2 to the Pistons in '89 who beat the Lakers 4-0, lost in '90 to the Pistons 4-3, who then beat Portland 4-1). I think people have a tendency to overlook that. The big difference to me is this: After losing to the eventual champ Pistons in '90, Jordan never lost another series (not counting the abbreviated '94-'95 run) after he learned how to win. After winning his first title in '91 he was basically unbeatable. Magic lost to the Rockets in '81 AFTER winning in '80. Bird got swept in '83, AFTER winning in '81. Erving lost in '84, AFTER winning in '83. Once Jordan learned how to win he never lost again. Those playoff losses in '89 and '90 happened BEFORE he won, not after. That's why I give him the pass because it wasn't the same as the others.
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#75 » by wigglestrue » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:12 pm

Grandpa Waiters wrote:
wigglestrue wrote:Hey so what's the deal with Jordan losing in '89 and '90? He had a really good team. Pippen was pretty much a mini-Pippen by then, in the playoffs, in that '89 series where the Pistons won in 6. Grant was about as good as Grant ever was in that series, too. Sure, yeah, Cartwright was below-average...but, didn't Jordan later win with Longley and Wennington later? I'd almost rather have Cartwright than Longley or Wennington. And, oh, hey, wait, the center was also Cartwright, in 1991, and in 1992, and in 1993, when they had no problem winning the championship. So what was the problem in 1989? Cartwright was better and younger then. Why did the Bulls lose? Seems like the Pistons contained Jordan, nearly even stifled him by Jordanesque standards, especially the '89 vintage. So, why does Jordan not get any flack for 1989 or 1990? Bird gets oodles of flack for 1982 and 1983. What are the differences? The Pistons went on to win the title, and were both years among the best defenses in league history. But who did Bird lose to in '82 and '83? He lost in 7 to a 58-win Sixers led by Dr. J who then lost in 6 to the '82 Lakers. Where's the shame in that? Okay, fine he was smoked the next season by the '83 Bucks, swept, embarrassed. But it's not like those Bucks were mediocre. They had won 51 games, and were teeming with underrated players, like Marques Johnson, a still-quite-effective Bob Lanier, the ferocious Alton Lister, and of course the reigning DPOY Sidney Moncrief. There's not nearly as much shame in that series fail as some portray. Besides, it's just one year, one loss to an underrated team, just like Dr. J's 1984 more or less. But somehow the Jordan legend has built up some sort of partition of infallibility which hides from our sight the playoff failures of Jordan in '89 and '90. Something about how HCA is the key determinant, because, naturally, that premise favors Jordan the most and obscures his shortcomings the best, lol. Or am I way off?


Cartwright was aquired after the '88 season for Oakley, who was viewed as expendable after the Bulls drafted Horace Grant. Pippen and Grant were still babies in '88-'89, just their second year in the league. That season was also the first full season the future championship lineup played together (Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright and Paxson). Jordan was ready to win at that point but the Bulls were not. Still too young, no bench and not quite gelled at that point. However, even in defeat, the Bulls came closer to beating the Pistons than any other team (lost 4-2 to the Pistons in '89 who beat the Lakers 4-0, lost in '90 to the Pistons 4-3, who then beat Portland 4-1). I think people have a tendency to overlook that. The big difference to me is this: After losing to the eventual champ Pistons in '90, Jordan never lost another series (not counting the abbreviated '94-'95 run) after he learned how to win. After winning his first title in '91 he was basically unbeatable. Magic lost to the Rockets in '81 AFTER winning in '80. Bird got swept in '83, AFTER winning in '81. Erving lost in '84, AFTER winning in '83. Once Jordan learned how to win he never lost again. Those playoff losses in '89 and '90 happened BEFORE he won, not after. That's why I give him the pass because it wasn't the same as the others.


Right, and it's a total coincidence that the particular sequence of events you have decided to privilege as the ideal happens to be the one which flatters Jordan the most, lol. Dude, nobody except Jordan water-carriers gives all that faint of a whit about things like consecutiveness (selective consecutiveness, since 1995 doesn't count, lol), losing-(gasp!)-with-home-court-advantage, or whether-you-ever-lost-after-you-won. Those things are comparatively trivial.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
Grandpa Waiters
Banned User
Posts: 465
And1: 89
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#76 » by Grandpa Waiters » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:21 pm

wigglestrue wrote:
Grandpa Waiters wrote:
wigglestrue wrote:Hey so what's the deal with Jordan losing in '89 and '90? He had a really good team. Pippen was pretty much a mini-Pippen by then, in the playoffs, in that '89 series where the Pistons won in 6. Grant was about as good as Grant ever was in that series, too. Sure, yeah, Cartwright was below-average...but, didn't Jordan later win with Longley and Wennington later? I'd almost rather have Cartwright than Longley or Wennington. And, oh, hey, wait, the center was also Cartwright, in 1991, and in 1992, and in 1993, when they had no problem winning the championship. So what was the problem in 1989? Cartwright was better and younger then. Why did the Bulls lose? Seems like the Pistons contained Jordan, nearly even stifled him by Jordanesque standards, especially the '89 vintage. So, why does Jordan not get any flack for 1989 or 1990? Bird gets oodles of flack for 1982 and 1983. What are the differences? The Pistons went on to win the title, and were both years among the best defenses in league history. But who did Bird lose to in '82 and '83? He lost in 7 to a 58-win Sixers led by Dr. J who then lost in 6 to the '82 Lakers. Where's the shame in that? Okay, fine he was smoked the next season by the '83 Bucks, swept, embarrassed. But it's not like those Bucks were mediocre. They had won 51 games, and were teeming with underrated players, like Marques Johnson, a still-quite-effective Bob Lanier, the ferocious Alton Lister, and of course the reigning DPOY Sidney Moncrief. There's not nearly as much shame in that series fail as some portray. Besides, it's just one year, one loss to an underrated team, just like Dr. J's 1984 more or less. But somehow the Jordan legend has built up some sort of partition of infallibility which hides from our sight the playoff failures of Jordan in '89 and '90. Something about how HCA is the key determinant, because, naturally, that premise favors Jordan the most and obscures his shortcomings the best, lol. Or am I way off?


Cartwright was aquired after the '88 season for Oakley, who was viewed as expendable after the Bulls drafted Horace Grant. Pippen and Grant were still babies in '88-'89, just their second year in the league. That season was also the first full season the future championship lineup played together (Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Cartwright and Paxson). Jordan was ready to win at that point but the Bulls were not. Still too young, no bench and not quite gelled at that point. However, even in defeat, the Bulls came closer to beating the Pistons than any other team (lost 4-2 to the Pistons in '89 who beat the Lakers 4-0, lost in '90 to the Pistons 4-3, who then beat Portland 4-1). I think people have a tendency to overlook that. The big difference to me is this: After losing to the eventual champ Pistons in '90, Jordan never lost another series (not counting the abbreviated '94-'95 run) after he learned how to win. After winning his first title in '91 he was basically unbeatable. Magic lost to the Rockets in '81 AFTER winning in '80. Bird got swept in '83, AFTER winning in '81. Erving lost in '84, AFTER winning in '83. Once Jordan learned how to win he never lost again. Those playoff losses in '89 and '90 happened BEFORE he won, not after. That's why I give him the pass because it wasn't the same as the others.


Right, and it's a total coincidence that the particular sequence of events you have decided to privilege as the ideal happens to be the one which flatters Jordan the most, lol. Dude, nobody except Jordan water-carriers gives all that faint of a whit about things like consecutiveness (selective consecutiveness, since 1995 doesn't count, lol), losing-(gasp!)-with-home-court-advantage, or whether-you-ever-lost-after-you-won. Those things are comparatively trivial.


You ask for an answer and when I give you my take you completely trash it. Nice. It's my opinion, just as valid or invalid as yours. LOL. You shouldn't ask scary questions if the answers are going to frighten you. See ya.
User avatar
wigglestrue
RealGM
Posts: 24,124
And1: 170
Joined: Feb 06, 2003
Location: Wiggling, after hitting a four-pointer of Truth

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#77 » by wigglestrue » Sat Feb 1, 2014 1:04 am

Grandpa, don't go fleeing under the skirt of Validity, lol, give me a substantive response to the point that you Jordan partisans tend to elevate these trifling considerations into big litmus tests because your favorite happens to separate himself the most from his other Top 10 GOAT peers when comparisons are filtered according to those quite-arbitrary and not-really-important criteria. Otherwise, it's a lot closer of a call than the legend demands. Honestly, I don't know why you guys do it. It's needless. He's almost certainly the all-around best/greatest, by any reasonable measure. There are, however, arguments to be made for the other six (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, soon to be LeBron, and a handful of others) and not just arguments for the sake of arguing, real cases to be made as either equal to or even greater than (gasp!) the almighty Jordan. He's not so great that there isn't a real debate. There is. And it has always been lively, and is only getting livelier. (Hey, did you know Bird is a top 25-50 defender of all time? True story, bro!) There is just no need for this career-window-cherrypicking and HCA-obsessing and consecutiveness-fetish. If you insist on those random subcategorizations being your ultimate criteria, though, then Jordan cannot possibly match Russell, who would then necessarily be your GOAT, not Jordan. So which is it, what's it gonna be: a) Dispense with the silly emphasis on arbitrarily Jordan-friendly standards and probably have Jordan win all debates anyway on the truly relevant merits alone, or b) concede #1 GOAT-ness to Russell.
0:01.8 A. Walker makes 3-pt shot from 28 ft (assist by E. Williams) +3 109-108
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_9qvmXiEuU
Grandpa Waiters
Banned User
Posts: 465
And1: 89
Joined: Jan 05, 2014

Re: Where do you rank Dr. J in your ATL? 

Post#78 » by Grandpa Waiters » Sat Feb 1, 2014 1:51 am

wigglestrue wrote:Grandpa, don't go fleeing under the skirt of Validity, lol, give me a substantive response to the point that you Jordan partisans tend to elevate these trifling considerations into big litmus tests because your favorite happens to separate himself the most from his other Top 10 GOAT peers when comparisons are filtered according to those quite-arbitrary and not-really-important criteria. Otherwise, it's a lot closer of a call than the legend demands. Honestly, I don't know why you guys do it. It's needless. He's almost certainly the all-around best/greatest, by any reasonable measure. There are, however, arguments to be made for the other six (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, soon to be LeBron, and a handful of others) and not just arguments for the sake of arguing, real cases to be made as either equal to or even greater than (gasp!) the almighty Jordan. He's not so great that there isn't a real debate. There is. And it has always been lively, and is only getting livelier. (Hey, did you know Bird is a top 25-50 defender of all time? True story, bro!) There is just no need for this career-window-cherrypicking and HCA-obsessing and consecutiveness-fetish. If you insist on those random subcategorizations being your ultimate criteria, though, then Jordan cannot possibly match Russell, who would then necessarily be your GOAT, not Jordan. So which is it, what's it gonna be: a) Dispense with the silly emphasis on arbitrarily Jordan-friendly standards and probably have Jordan win all debates anyway on the truly relevant merits alone, or b) concede #1 GOAT-ness to Russell.


Whoever said I was a Jordan partisan? LOL. You asked a question and I gave you my take on it. You obviously have your mind made up already. Sorry, I should have realized your question was rhetorical. ROTFL.

Return to Player Comparisons