New Franchise: Kevin Garnett vs Moses Malone

[The Infamous1]

^^^A much better scorer than KG is

It's the primary thing that separates them

[WhateverBro]

Who would it hurt? How does efficient volume scoring hurt a team? Virtually every nba champion in the last several decades has had a Efficient volume scorer leading them on the roster.

Look at the last 2 years they missed the playoffs, they're offense was garbage. They needed a guy who could put up tons of points

I have a hard time knocking a guy who scored 22+ ppg over several years and lead top 5 offenses with rosters that were bad to average for not scoring more. His scoring was obviously not the problem, the offense was always there for the Timberwolves. They lacked defense, which isn't surprising because they had a terrible defensive coach and rosters that were downright horrible defensively.

Another good question is why Garnett is knocked for scoring too little when him and Duncan were basically neck and neck scoring wise for most of their careers. Why is this logic only applied to KG?

[NO-KG-AI]

^^^A much better scorer than KG is

It's the primary thing that separates them

He's not a 25-27 per game scorer in his prime.

[The Infamous1]

Who would it hurt? How does efficient volume scoring hurt a team? Virtually every nba champion in the last several decades has had a Efficient volume scorer leading them on the roster.

Look at the last 2 years they missed the playoffs, they're offense was garbage. They needed a guy who could put up tons of points

I have a hard time knocking a guy who scored 22+ ppg over several years and lead top 5 offenses with rosters that were bad to average for not scoring more. His scoring was obviously not the problem, the offense was always there for the Timberwolves. They lacked defense, which isn't surprising because they had a terrible defensive coach and rosters that were downright horrible defensively.

Another good question is why Garnett is knocked for scoring too little when him and Duncan were basically neck and neck scoring wise for most of their careers. Why is this logic only applied to KG?

Because there is so much one defensive player can do I agree.

And KG isn't as good as Duncan as a scorer. I know your'e gonna say "well they averaged similar PPG" but he's not. It would be like saying camby is on KG's level defensively because of blocks of steals

[NO-KG-AI]

So they're skirting the borderline? Tim Duncan must be JUST good enough, while KG is just short of the line that separates number 1 options, and non number 1 options?

Your point was that he should have been a 25-27 ppg scorer, when the most successful "PF" of all time wasn't that, and it probably wasn't because he couldn't be, but more because he shouldn't be.

No surprise that the Spurs offense has reached superior heights in Duncan's decline.

[JordansBulls]

Who is the gold standard for the PF position?

T.Duncan and Karl Malone

[WhateverBro]

Because there is so much one defensive player can do I agree.

And KG isn't as good as Duncan as a scorer. I know your'e gonna say "well they averaged similar PPG" but he's not. It would be like saying camby is on KG's level defensively because of blocks of steals

No, because it's impossible to have a great defense if you have horrible defensive player. It works the same way for offense too. In that sense, yes there's only so much a player can do, but that goes for both offensively and defensively.

No, it's definitely not like saying Camby is on KGs level defensively because of blocks and steals. Read through what you wrote again, do you not see that your argumentation is ridiculous?

You can argue that Duncan was the better scorer, that's fine. But Duncan still doesn't reach your criteria of being a consistent 25-27 ppg player in his prime. Why isn't Duncan held to this standard of yours? Why isn't he punished for being comparable scorer to Garnett? Him scoring more surely would've resulted in more success, right?

[The Infamous1]

Because there is so much one defensive player can do I agree.

And KG isn't as good as Duncan as a scorer. I know your'e gonna say "well they averaged similar PPG" but he's not. It would be like saying camby is on KG's level defensively because of blocks of steals

No, because it's impossible to have a great defense if you have horrible defensive player. It works the same way for offense too. In that sense, yes there's only so much a player can do, but that goes for both offensively and defensively.

No, it's definitely not like saying Camby is on KGs level defensively because of blocks and steals. Read through what you wrote again, do you not see that your argumentation is ridiculous?

You can argue that Duncan was the better scorer, that's fine. But Duncan still doesn't reach your criteria of being a consistent 25-27 ppg player in his prime. Why isn't Duncan held to this standard of yours? Why isn't he punished for being comparable scorer to Garnett? Him scoring more surely would've resulted in more success, right?

Because We've seen far more examples of a great offensive player surrounded by crap leading a team to an elite offense than a great defensive player surrounded by crap leading a lead to an elite defense. Kobe Bryant 2006 and tmac's 2003 seasons comes to mind, both top ten offenses despite garbage next to them. So again it's not KG's fault it's just so much one defensive player can do because their impact is limited and team defense in 2013 is an effort and coaching concept. And in general Individual offense is more impactful the individual defense, especially in the nba playoffs

As for my camby example I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Many KG fans have liked to say or imply that he's on the level of Duncan(and other guys) as a scorer and an overall offensive player because their PPG is similar. I remember one the other day flat out said

"What makes Dirk that much better as a scorer than KG? He averaged what 3 more PPG in their primes?"

I don't have to explain to you why that's ridiculous like I wouldn't have to explain how camby and KG aren't close to each other on Defense because of blocks and steals. It's much more than raw numbers, is rondo on Nash's level as a playmaker? I mean they averaged similar APG in their primes

For the record I hold Duncan to the same standard in debates with Kareem shaq and Hakeem. He's so far behind those guys offensively I could never take him over them especially in a playoff setting. But he's clearly better than KG though that's for sure

As for this thread I've already said KG>Moses because it don't like Malone as my offensive anchor in the playoffs. I don't like KG either but he's significantly better than Malone on D

[WhateverBro]

Because We've seen far more examples of a great offensive player surrounded by crap leading a team to an elite offense than a great defensive player surrounded by crap leading a lead to an elite defense. Kobe Bryant 2006 and tmac's 2003 seasons comes to mind, both top ten offenses despite garbage next to them. So again it's not KG's fault it's just so much one defensive player can do because their impact is limited and team defense in 2013 is an effort and coaching concept. And in general Individual offense is more impactful the individual defense, especially in the nba playoffs

As for my camby example I don't see how it doesn't make sense. Many KG fans have liked to say or imply that he's on the level of Duncan(and other guys) as a scorer and an overall offensive player because their PPG is similar. I remember one the other day flat out said

"What makes Dirk that much better as a scorer than KG? He averaged what 3 more PPG in their primes?"

I don't have to explain to you why that's ridiculous like I wouldn't have to explain how camby and KG aren't close to each other on Defense because of blocks and steals. It's much more than raw numbers, is rondo on Nash's level as a playmaker? I mean they averaged similar APG in their primes

For the record I hold Duncan to the same standard in debates with Kareem shaq and Hakeem. He's so far behind those guys offensively I could never take him over them especially in a playoff setting. But he's clearly better than KG though that's for sure

As for this thread I've already said KG>Moses because it don't like Malone as my offensive anchor in the playoffs. I don't like KG either but he's significantly better than Malone on D

Ok, so why don't you apply that same logic to KG leading top 5 offenses? Since one player can make that much difference offensively, then why aren't you arguing that Garnett was a great offensive player? You surely can't believe that those Minny squads were great offensively, yet they produced great results offensively, shouldn't this be attributed to KG since he was their by far, best offensive player? Or maybe, just maybe is it that teammates, scheme etc. does matter when it comes to offense? It's not just as easy as one guy scoring 25-27 ppg and suddenly the offense is great because of it. There are plenty of high volume scorers that have hurt his team by doing so, i.e Wilt, although an extreme example.

No, your Camby example does NOT work. You argued that Garnett wasn't scoring enough, that was your whole argument! Blocks doesn't equal defense, but your argument was about not scoring enough points and that is literally measured by ppg . You didn't say that Garnett didn't score efficiently enough or whatever, your argument was that he didn't reach 25-27 points per game.

Also, the reason why you find the Nowitzki comparison ridiculous is probably because Nowitzki actually scored on a higher volume than Garnett and was more efficient. There is a clear difference between them scoring wise but this is not the case with Duncan; his and KGs scoring numbers are almost identical.

But to get back on topic, why isn't Duncan held to the same criticsm as KG? You know, the "he was not a consistent 25-27 ppg scorer in his prime" argument. That was the whole debate here and you're still not giving an answer.

[G35]

Probably because people use context. Like the fact that Moses played 42 minutes. Or that the Rockets offense wasn't that great, despite how "dominant" he was. That's why every metric shows KG as a better player. Except ppg/rpg.

G35 must be a massive Tebow/Vince young fan.

Oh....okay I get it now. Thank you for clarifying.

That is a great argument. .

If you don't take into account scoring, rebounding, NBA MVPS, NBA Final MVPS, playoff statistics, and playoff success Kevin Garnett is the better player.

Got it.

Well, you could say all that, but on the quoted seasons that you cherry picked stats with no context(and backed up with your "points"), Garnett was a better rebounder in the regular season and playoffs, a better scorer in the playoffs, an amazing passer, as opposed to a bad one, also won an MVP, played DPOY level defense, and made the conference finals, where Moses got swept

Come on, really that's your argument? That I'm somehow ONLY looking at wins. Moses is not Tebow. Neither is many of the other players compared to KG. What you don't understand is that the comparisons between these players are all fairly close. Like someone said before, when you start getting into the top 20-30 players all time they all have really good numbers. They all posted great production. We are splitting hairs when you start getting into the actual numbers and then it starts getting into personal preferences.

But Moses won 3 MVP's. Did Vince or Tebow?

Moses went to two title games. Did Vince or Tebow?

Moses was the finals MVP and the best player on a dominant Sixers team. Were Vince or Tebow MVP of the NFL in anything?

Moses won THREE MVP's! THREE! Was that mentioned? And it wasn't in some BS earlier era. It was with Kareem, Erving, Magic, Bird, Bernard King, Gervin.

I can't understand how people are minimizing what Moses did....except for the law of recency. There aren't a lot of youtube video's and Moses did not have a "sexy" game. What KG fans don't realize is that in 30 years from now someone is going to do the same thing to KG and "analyze" his game from stats and narrative. What is unfortunate for KG is that many of his supporters say you can't understand his impact from just numbers. That his statistics are not representative of what he brought to the game.

What I don't understand is why people can't transfer that to other players? Do you really think that the numbers sum up what Moses brought to his teams? Do you really think that when the Sixers acquired him it didn't make the whole organization feel better? It didn't lift up the other Sixers players? I didn't get to see all those games because there wasn't a game on every day like it is now but I heard the "Fo, Fo, Fo" statement. That had to be inspirational to his teammates. That was unprecedented for a team to run through the playoff's the way the Sixers did.

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19821983.html

"Everybody had a sense that this was our opportunity," recalled Bobby Jones, who won the league's first Sixth Man Award in 1983. "The motivation was there, and we were healthy, too. We got off to a good start, got some confidence and didn't get cocky -- we kept that good work ethic. I think Moses really established a lot of that. Julius had always had it. But then a big guy comes in and does that, and it helps."

The Sixers ripped through the regular-season schedule with a 65-17 record. When writers asked Malone how the Sixers would fare in the playoffs, he uttered his famous "Fo, fo and fo" prediction, meaning that Philly would sweep to the title in 12 straight games. It was an audacious comment, yet Jones said it didn't stun or anger the rest of the team. "Again, it was that Malone confidence," Jones explained. "It was confidence that he had backed up before with his actions."

Dr. J is my favorite player all time. I think he is severely underrated. He is the epitome of what a leader does for his team. Whatever it takes and you DO NOT MAKE EXCUSES. There are none in a competitive situation.

Without Nixon the Lakers battled furiously, and even held a 106-104 lead late in the game. To sort things out, the 76ers called a timeout. Having been burned by comebacks in the past, coach Billy Cunningham and his players wanted to close out the series before anything got started.

"I'm taking over," the Doctor said in the huddle. He immediately stole the ball and dunked it to tie the score. Next he chalked up a three-point play, then followed it moments later with another score, a one-hander in Magic Johnson's face from the perimeter. The momentum from those seven late points pushed the Sixers beyond reach as they won 115-108.

Erving had finally nailed down an NBA title to go with the two ABA rings he had gotten with the Nets. His wait hadn't been nearly as protracted as that of Jerry West or Elgin Baylor. Still, it was substantial.

As a champion, he displayed the same grace in winning that he had in losing. "I've always tried to tell myself that the work itself is the thing, that win, lose, or draw, the work is really what counts," he said. "As hard as it was to make myself believe that sometimes, it was the only thing I had to cling to each year -- that every game, every night, I did the best I could."

He, more than anyone, knew that wasn't enough, that no one player's effort is enough to win an NBA title.

"Let's not make believe," Cunningham said. "The difference from last year was Moses. He gave us the consistency inside that the Lakers had always gotten from Abdul-Jabbar. We got that and more from Moses."

Moses was the difference. KG wasn't going through all time great teams like Bird/Mchale/Parish, Kareem/McAdoo/Magic/Worthy. KG struggled to get past Josh Smith and Joe Johnson! KG struggled to beat Lebron and that's it! But because you put up some Drtg's or some sort of impact stat that is suppose to trump a 12-1 historical playoff run? Get out of here with that noise. That's your narrative.

That Moses won consecutive MVP's for two different teams? No one has ever done that.

http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2009/ ... 83-sixers/

When both coaches were asked why the Sixers were so dominant compared to last season, they both simply said,”Moses was the difference“. They were exactly right since he upped his regular season numbers to 26.0 ppg and an amazing 15.8 rebs during the playoffs, including one of the All-Time best performances in a Finals game with 24 points and 23 rebounds in the clinching Game 4. In the Finals, he flat out dominated Kareem, especially on the boards by a 72-30 margin, which earned him Finals MVP.

The Sixers during the late 70′s to mid 80′s could have been considered a dynasty, except for the fact that they won only one title. Between 1976, when they acquired Erving from the Nets, through 1987, they won 50+ games 9 times, 60+ twice, made it to the Eastern Finals or better 7 times, while making the playoffs every season. Until the ’01 Lakers ran through the playoffs with a record of 15-1, Philadelphia’s 12-1 playoff run was the most dominant until the league expanded the playoffs for another round.

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/06/01/sport ... akers.html

Someone surely will. And the Lakers will be among them. With the defeat, they became the 14th consecutive league champion to fail to repeat. They also have the dubious distinction of being the first championship team to be eliminated in a four-game sweep in the finals.

http://articles.courant.com/2001-05-27/ ... off-lakers

In 54 previous seasons, only one team -- the 1983 76ers -- went through the playoffs with just one loss. And that was the final year before the league expanded to a 16-team playoff format and a fourth round of games.

Ranking of the most dominant playoff teams:

http://www.totalprosports.com/2012/05/2 ... istory/#11

Sixers ranked 2nd all time

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... eams-ever/

ranked 3rd

http://www.nba.com/history/toptenteams_index.html

ranked 5th all time regular season and playoff's

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multim ... ent.2.html

Ranked 2nd

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7251 ... me/page/16

Ranked 4th

http://www.sportsgrid.com/mlb/most-domi ... f-teams/#1

Ranked 6th in most dominant playoff team all time

http://chasing23.com/the-9-most-dominan ... a-history/

Ranked 2nd

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2012/st ... atest-runs

ranked 5th

People do not speak of the 2008 Celtics in any sort of dominating terms other than their Drtg. No one speaks of KG as dominating. I don't see any way you can argue that KG had more impact than Moses. KG was put in the best situation he could be in and they had the weakest playoff run ever.....

[Chicago76]

It says "since January 1st", not whole season. And in 2014 (9 games, including games vs OKC, MIA, GSW or hot TOR) KG's defensive impact indeed looks fantastic:
on the floor: 95.7 drtg
off the floor: 109.7 drtg
net: -14.0 drtg

And for whole season he is a little bit better than 82games numbers suggest: 104.3 on, 111.3 off, -7.0 net drtg.

Hibbert improves team D by 3.2 drtg - 98.1 off and 94.9 on. So over the whole season Roy is definitely better, but KG in January has bigger defensive impact than Hibbert, because Nets with KG on the floor play basically at the same level (95.7 vs 94.9 drtg) as Pacers with Hibbert, while Indiana is much better defensively without Hibbert than Nets without Garnett, so what KG is doing in January is even more impressive.

I get what you're saying, but the flaws in this are a) ridiculously low sample size b) no control for who is actually on the court (Nets and opponents) when KG is both on and off the court. I've seen people here dismiss an entire season of RAPM, which at least makes an approximation for teammate/opponent strength as a one-off sample size issue (yourself included). Apart from small sample size, there are some personnel issues that might explain the jump in relative difference. Lopez has been out since 12/20, which means when Garnett is out, the Nets are lacking in the middle. They've had blowout games where Garnett sits the fourth quarter plus and teams have thrown up a ton of O (to lose by 20 still) in meaningless time for entire quarters. Their last three games, they've given up an avg of 40 pts over the last 1.5Qs, they've won comfortably, and Garnett has been sitting comfortably on the bench.

Lack of quality in the middle also means that teams can play small with quality three point shooters and a higher powered O when Garnett is on the bench.

I'm not saying Garnett still isn't an excellent defender. I'm just saying that looking at a 9 game stretch with all of the aforementioned weaknesses in simple on-off (in general and in this particular situation) isn't good enough.

[NO-KG-AI]

I don't why you keep saying he "struggled to beat Josh Smith" because at the same time, they crushed Kobe and his Lakers, embarrassing him. Besides the fact that they lost some close games to the Hawks on the road, and had an average margin of victory of like 25+ at home or something. They didn't struggle at all, they pounded that team at home, and came up short on the road.

Anyway, if he struggled against Josh Smith and "just LeBron", what does that say about Kobe, that his team couldn't put up a fight?

[G35]

I don't why you keep saying he "struggled to beat Josh Smith" because at the same time, they crushed Kobe and his Lakers, embarrassing him. Besides the fact that they lost some close games to the Hawks on the road, and had an average margin of victory of like 25+ at home or something. They didn't struggle at all, they pounded that team at home, and came up short on the road.

Anyway, if he struggled against Josh Smith and "just LeBron", what does that say about Kobe, that his team couldn't put up a fight?

Well for one thing...and I can't believe I have to explain this...but the playoff's are based on matchups.

PG Fisher
SG Kobe
SF Radmanovich
PF Odom
C Gasol

That is a pretty good lineup vs most teams but not vs the Celtics. That is a team weak on the interior and can be pushed around. The Lakers were also incredibly weak at the SF position with Ariza being injured. So the Celtics were much more capable of focusing on Kobe. Now the rematch had this Lakers in 2010:

PG Fisher
SG Kobe
SF Artest/World-Peace
PF Gasol
C Bynum

Now Gasol is at his more natural PF position (where he torched KG btw), Bynum at C which gave the Lakers a more physical presence, and they had Artest who was able to matchup with Pierce. Pierce was not nearly as good as he was in 2008, neither was KG.

The Hawks were much stronger on the interior and battled the Celtics to a near draw on the boards. KG avg'd only 9 reb's a game and he was the Celtics leading rebounder. Josh Smith also burned KG in games 3 and 4 of that series. Josh was on fire in Atlanta scoring 55 pts on 57% FG%, 15 reb's, 8 asst, 4 stls, and 8 blks. This was definitely a series that the Celtics won because of homecourt advantage...which they also had over the Lakers if you had forgotten.....

[john248]

What happened to the Moses bashing? It's now 2008 Finals. KG threads...go nuts.

[NO-KG-AI]

You're right, they had home court advantage. I forgot about it, after watching Kobe blow a 24 point lead on his home court and lose by 6.

[acrossthecourt]

I'm surprised no one's really mentioned this point: Garnett beats Moses in longevity.

People assume Moses had great longevity because he played for a long time, but his time as an elite player was short. Garnett remained an elite defensive anchor into his mid to late 30's.

What's crazy is that he's even rated highly in 1997's RAPM (11th) and 1998's RAPM (5th.) And I'm pretty sure he was highly rated last season too. That's an insane streak of consistently high advanced +/- numbers. That does mean something. It's not a fluke.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Moses was winning MVP's when Bird, Magic and Dr. J were competing at the highest level for dominance ('80-'83) but is the most overlooked multiple MVP winner ever (at least on RealGM). KG is overrated to a Herculean degree on these forums usually by younger posters who are prisoners of the moment and have no memory of a prime Moses (if they remember him at all). Moses kicked Kareem's ass in the '83 Finals. KG isn't kicking Kareem's ass. Ever.

[Okada]

I haven't seen anyone make the KG case yet, but I don't really even know what that case would be. Just on the surface...

Moses Malone - 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP, 3 time league MVP, 14 All-Star appearances (2 ABA), 8 1st or 2nd team All-NBA selections, 2 All-Defensive team selections

Career high in PPG and RPG - 31.1 and 17.6

9 season stretch of averaging between 22.7 and 31.1 PPG, and 11.3 and 17.6 RPG

Kevin Garnett - 1 ring, 1 league MVP, 15 All-Star appearances, 7 1st or 2nd team All-NBA selections, 12 All-Defensive team selections, 1 Defensive Player of the Year

Career high in PPG and RPG - 24.2 and 13.9

9 season stretch of averaging between 20.8 and 24.2 PPG, and 10.4 and 13.9 RPG

I'm not saying that's the entire story but what can a KG defender even lean on beyond defensive abilities and KG's passing chops? Moses clearly was on a higher level as both a scorer and rebounder. Moses won 3 MVPs to KG's 1 over clearly superior competition for Moses so obviously he was seen as being the better player in his day than KG was too.

[G35]

You're right, they had home court advantage. I forgot about it, after watching Kobe blow a 24 point lead on his home court and lose by 6.

You know what I notice?

You keep bringing up Kobe.

Like Kobe is the litmus test for everything questioned about KG.

I didn't know that Kobe played the Celtics by himself that year. In fact whenever Kobe has won anything it's repeatedly brought up how much HELP Kobe needs to win. Shaq, Pau, Lamar, Fisher, Artest, all of these names have saved Kobe from being a failure.

But KG? Nah that dude did it all by himself......

[NO-KG-AI]

You're right, they had home court advantage. I forgot about it, after watching Kobe blow a 24 point lead on his home court and lose by 6.

You know what I notice?

You keep bringing up Kobe.

Like Kobe is the litmus test for everything questioned about KG.

I didn't know that Kobe played the Celtics by himself that year. In fact whenever Kobe has won anything it's repeatedly brought up how much HELP Kobe needs to win. Shaq, Pau, Lamar, Fisher, Artest, all of these names have saved Kobe from being a failure.

But KG? Nah that dude did it all by himself......

Just saying, if Josh Smith was so good at leading his team against the Celtics, and KG and the Celtics were such a weak champion because of that, they shouldn't have steamrolled Kobe's team, who were playing amazing basketball and firing on all cylinders prior to that.

Oh that transitive property argument. Josh Smith and "only" LeBron were able to push the Celtics to 7, so you'd have to admit that Kobe was a lesser player than them. Context doesn't matter, "why are you punishing them for winning???!?!?! I don't get this site!"