ATFL Eastern: (1) RSCD3_ vs. (8) Bruh Man

[SideshowBob]

As has been mentioned, there's clear issues with RSCD3_'s team. In a regular league, I think they can do major damage, but not against these built superteams. Primary issue on offense is spacing. There's a few lineups that come to mind that could aid that, but then you lose low-post scoring (unless you're working with 14 James) and defense (West is fine as a stretch-4, solid man-defense, not too comfortable with his lateral game defensively). Might consider putting the ball in Iverson's hands and using James off the ball, but that would also demand going to the block a lot and the lane is already clogged. I think a Ming/James core would work defensively. Wallace is solid on that end (epic SF rebounding, covers the floor well, explosive and long on the perimeter) and everyone else just has to stay disciplined. They'd be strong guarding the PnR. Still, just seems like there's too much to try and figure out on the offensive end, and nothing that flows well enough to consider attacking Bruh Man's epic defense.

Garnett/Pippen/Hibbert core defensively is monstrous, basically have all staples covered and covered well. Pip is disruptive, shuts down passing lanes, extreme length and mobility on the perimeter and can shift inside and cover the paint, provide some measure of weakside rim protection and is a complete nightmare in transition. Hibbert gotten great at just being an enforcer down low, provides major basket protection, makes the paint a dangerous territory. Garnett is unspeakably extremely dynamic, can cover the entire floor, shut down the pick-and-roll, strong and long enough to cover the interior and quick and mobile enough to switch onto the perimeter, frequently forces low% plays, etc. etc. This would be an all-time level defense with just those 3 and any stooges; instead we get Kidd who provides all-time defense for his position in his own right. Strong and large enough base to cover all perimeter positions, but can stay with quicker PGs and funnel them into the help. Then you've even got Prince off the bench as a strong 1-on-1 guy and is disciplined within the team scheme.

I'm comfortable going with Bruh Man's team without even getting to their offense, that's something I'd get into in later matchups. They're a devastating match-up for any opposing offensive unit, and considering the other team is already laced with question-marks on that end, this is an easy choice for me.

Vote: Bruh Man

[O_6]

This is a tough matchup, both teams are dangerous. Bruh Man probably has the best defensive team in the tournament while RSCD3_ has a talented team led by LeBron, who may be a Top 3 individual player in this tournament.

I feel like McHale is being a little underrated here because people assume KG could check him, I don't think that's the case. KG would still have a great team impact on D, but individually I don't think even he could slow down McHale.

But at the end of the day I would go with Bruh Man's team because of one area, the PG position. I think a deciding factor would be Kidd's ability to run an offense and impact the game without scoring, while Iverson is less a PG and more of an undersized score-first combo guard. My favorite lineup for RSCD3_ would actually be one without AI on the floor. Whereas Kidd is a true floor general and Hardaway is a good change of pace player off the bench. I also like Bruh Man's bench a little better, but the PG position is the main reason I'd choose his team.

[whitehops]

as great a team as bru_man has I think people are underrating the difficulties he would have on offense. for supposedly being one of the best point guards, playmakers and 'floor generals' ever kidd has never led a great offense. in fact, two of the three years bruh_man selected for kidd, his team had an offensive rating below the league average. the other year? it was marginally above. the only time kidd was on a particularly good offense was when he went to dallas, with one of the best offensive players ever...

sorry I just dislike when people overrate kidd's offensive abilities. defensively I can't take anything away from him since he is a stellar defender but kidd has this hype around his offensive game for some reason.


and I think bruh_man's team as a whole would severely struggle on offense against an above average (or even average) team in this league.

[ElGee]

Wow. Bruh Man -- what a fascinating team. I liked it when I looked at it on paper, and I liked it even more after reading his descriptions -- I agree about their mailability and such.

RSCD3_ on offense

I like Eddie Jones and Peja around LeBron. I don't know how I feel about the two bigs, although both are good passers (although McHale wasn't always willing). Jones loved the corners and cut incredibly well on the baseline, and Peja was a deadly shooter from all over the court...I'm interested to see how a team would sag off of those players to handle help responsibilities. This is what we've seen from Miami recently with their lineups that include multiple shooters like Allen and Battier -- it's a nightmare to defend...

Unless you have Scottie Pippen, the best PnR defender of our time and a giant oak tree at the rim. This is not to say that Pippen would "shut down" LeBron -- basketball doesn't really work like that -- but I think Bruh Man built the LeBron Defense here. Pippen alone...I would pay money to see that. But Pippen knowing what he had behind him? What does LeBron do to be that effective offensive hub?

Isolation? Not his strong suit anyway...
PnR? Well, things might get worse if he runs it into KG, so what would he run -- the 2-3 PnR and try to switch on Miller? Would he then back Miller in?
Post? This might work, but then do McHale and Ming just stand on the opposite elbow?

The issue here is that Miller and Kidd may be able to stay at home against the shooters. I don't like RSCD's bench options to solve this conundrum. RSCD can still run McHale in the post -- but that option is slightly downgraded by Garnett's ridiculous defense.

Bruh Man on offense

Bruh Man said something that really stood out -- which is that his offense in transition will be really good. I agree with this to a certain extent -- Hibbert doesn't run the floor super well, but Pippen/Kidd are great great transition players. I think that's a small but important factor that upticks this offense.

In the half court, I really like the build of this team. It doesn't have a 120+ ORtg ceiling, which teams in this kind of league can top out at, but it's still well balanced. Running Miller off screens always completely disrupts the defense by itself - they don't need a second shooter there. Garnett works well in that both ITO of high-post passing (with Kidd cutting off ball) and both feeding Miller and popping out after picking for him. Pippen is a guy I think would be a touch lost in this HCO, although that probably works on a number of levels because it allows him to play to his strengths and

I think Bruh Man's team could win it all, but this would be a minor struggle to me. Still, I'd pick them in a competitive series.

[HeartBreakKid]

Bruhman has a great core. Elite defenders, diverse two way players, high IQ, guys who favor making the right basketball play over hero ball. Combine, I think they're a good team for this tournament. I like his bench as well.

RSCD3s team? Can't say I am a fan. It really seems like the fantasy version of Lebron James Cavs. This is not to belittle the players he drafted, but they don't fit in a way that really makes James life that much easier.

I feel like RSCD and maybe a few other players made the mistake of not having proper standards for their team. There is no doubt that if you throw in green Yao Ming and Kevin McHale with Lebron James, they would do serious damage and win a title in real life. But this isn't real life. Yao Ming and Kevin McHale together are not optimal with Lebron James. There's just no enhancement here.

We see what Lebron James does. Dude loves to kick it for those corner 3s. So Peja and Eddie Jones are good fits, however where is his point guard? I understand the rational of not investing in a point guard when you have a point-forward, but you still need an elite ball handler. Having James bring the ball up all the time is ignorant imo, I suppose Eddie Jones is supposed to be the other ball handler, I just don't see that being practical. You got Pippen, Kidd and Prince on the other team harassing the ball handler, it's going to lead to turnovers. Playing the point isn't the same as playing point guard, there is a reason why a scrub like Mario Chalmers brings the ball up.


So yeah, commenting more on the Lebron James team, because I don't see this offense working. It really seems like the best basketball play they have is give it to McHale and have him isolate against KG (presumably). All time iso scorer vs all time defender, who gets the best of that? Doesn't really matter, because that is RSC's best go to plan, and it isn't a great one.

I think most people will agree that the defense here will give James problems. I'll be more bold then saying it will tire James but he'll get his. I think James will legitimately have a bad game (numbers wise). He has an all time great defender in Pippen, at least 1 in the first 4 games, Pippen man to man alone will cause a drop in James numbers. Then you have KG with GOAT help defense, he'll do hinder any PNR play. Then you have an amazing rim protector in Roy Hibbert, who doesn't tend to get fouled when blocking?

James can kick it out to his 3 point shooters, but Kidd is well disciplined, he'll be on Jones all day. Peja can get his, but I wouldn't underestimate Miller's tenaciousness. With guys like Richmond and Prince on the bench, the guards could get shutdown all together just with man to man coverage.

So what about James posting up? I actually would love that. The only problem other than James is still going up against an amazing 3/4/5 combo, is that you have McHale and Ming in the post. Both guys have short jumpers, so they can't stretch the floor much - regardless even if they did get out of the post, went to the FT line or elbows, it would defeat the purpose of even drafting them. They're isolation post players, that's how they made their money, so when James is posting up, he's basically playing 1 vs 3 in the post.


TBH, at this point I think it is over, not even factoring in the bench. But since these analysis are for fun, I might as well give my piece.

Iverson has way too many minutes, and there is no point in playing him with Lebron James. Neither guys are on-ball players. Iverson in a 6th man role might not be a bad idea, but it's not beating any teams. Not sure if Iverson is supposed to end the game, but he would get beat up by Jason Kidd in half court situations like he did in real life. He could do a decent job against Tim in theory, but in practice Iverson is too undisciplined to be anything other than a liability defensively here.

Wallace? RSC's problem is offense, Wallace sure as heck isn't helping that. Cousins? Hm..don't really see what he adds, questionable how much of an impact player he is. Also, very immature player especially if you factor in the 2012 and 2013 seasons. Albeit those players are seeing very little minutes.

David West is cool, and Rashard Lewis compliments James well. No problems with them.

I'll comment on Bruhman's offense a bit, since there is some question to how effective it may be. Personally, I'm buying into it. Won't be an elite offense in this league, but with elite defense his offense just needs to be adequate, in which I fully believe it is.

Reggie Miller is a God send in these types of rules. 60% TS shooter as a #1 option. He'll be a nightmare here, him alone will make any team a pretty decent half court offense. KG will give elite PF spacing. Pippen has room to slash and create. Richmond can isolate, shoot, post and do basically anything that needs to be done. Kidd doesn't need much explanation, his lack of shooting won't hurt too much since Bruh Man has excellent shooters.

So yeah, if I were a judge I'd vote for Bruh Man.

[HeartBreakKid]

Bruhman has a great core. Elite defenders, diverse two way players, high IQ, guys who favor making the right basketball play over hero ball. Combine, I think they're a good team for this tournament. I like his bench as well.

RSCD3s team? Can't say I am a fan. It really seems like the fantasy version of Lebron James Cavs. This is not to belittle the players he drafted, but they don't fit in a way that really makes James life that much easier.

I feel like RSCD and maybe a few other players made the mistake of not having proper standards for their team. There is no doubt that if you throw in green Yao Ming and Kevin McHale with Lebron James, they would do serious damage and win a title in real life. But this isn't real life. Yao Ming and Kevin McHale together are not optimal with Lebron James. There's just no enhancement here.

We see what Lebron James does. Dude loves to kick it for those corner 3s. So Peja and Eddie Jones are good fits, however where is his point guard? I understand the rational of not investing in a point guard when you have a point-forward, but you still need an elite ball handler. Having James bring the ball up all the time is ignorant imo, I suppose Eddie Jones is supposed to be the other ball handler, I just don't see that being practical. You got Pippen, Kidd and Prince on the other team harassing the ball handler, it's going to lead to turnovers. Playing the point isn't the same as playing point guard, there is a reason why a scrub like Mario Chalmers brings the ball up.


So yeah, commenting more on the Lebron James team, because I don't see this offense working. It really seems like the best basketball play they have is give it to McHale and have him isolate against KG (presumably). All time iso scorer vs all time defender, who gets the best of that? Doesn't really matter, because that is RSC's best go to plan, and it isn't a great one.

I think most people will agree that the defense here will give James problems. I'll be more bold then saying it will tire James but he'll get his. I think James will legitimately have a bad game (numbers wise). He has an all time great defender in Pippen, at least 1 in the first 4 games, Pippen man to man alone will cause a drop in James numbers. Then you have KG with GOAT help defense, he'll do hinder any PNR play. Then you have an amazing rim protector in Roy Hibbert, who doesn't tend to get fouled when blocking?

James can kick it out to his 3 point shooters, but Kidd is well disciplined, he'll be on Jones all day. Peja can get his, but I wouldn't underestimate Miller's tenaciousness. With guys like Richmond and Prince on the bench, the guards could get shutdown all together just with man to man coverage.

So what about James posting up? I actually would love that. The only problem other than James is still going up against an amazing 3/4/5 combo, is that you have McHale and Ming in the post. Both guys have short jumpers, so they can't stretch the floor much - regardless even if they did get out of the post, went to the FT line or elbows, it would defeat the purpose of even drafting them. They're isolation post players, that's how they made their money, so when James is posting up, he's basically playing 1 vs 3 in the post.


TBH, at this point I think it is over, not even factoring in the bench. But since these analysis are for fun, I might as well give my piece.

Iverson has way too many minutes, and there is no point in playing him with Lebron James. Neither guys are on-ball players. Iverson in a 6th man role might not be a bad idea, but it's not beating any teams. Not sure if Iverson is supposed to end the game, but he would get beat up by Jason Kidd in half court situations like he did in real life. He could do a decent job against Tim in theory, but in practice Iverson is too undisciplined to be anything other than a liability defensively here.

Wallace? RSC's problem is offense, Wallace sure as heck isn't helping that. Cousins? Hm..don't really see what he adds, questionable how much of an impact player he is. Also, very immature player especially if you factor in the 2012 and 2013 seasons. Albeit those players are seeing very little minutes.

David West is cool, and Rashard Lewis compliments James well. No problems with them.

I'll comment on Bruhman's offense a bit, since there is some question to how effective it may be. Personally, I'm buying into it. Won't be an elite offense in this league, but with elite defense his offense just needs to be adequate, in which I fully believe it is.

Reggie Miller is a God send in these types of rules. 60% TS shooter as a #1 option. He'll be a nightmare here, him alone will make any team a pretty decent half court offense. KG will give elite PF spacing. Pippen has room to slash and create. Richmond can isolate, shoot, post and do basically anything that needs to be done. Kidd doesn't need much explanation, his lack of shooting won't hurt too much since Bruh Man has excellent shooters.

So yeah, if I were a judge I'd vote for Bruh Man.

I actually made a mistake here. I thought RSC had Rashard Lewis not Reggie Lewis. So yeah, his bench is a bit worse than I thought.

[ronnymac2]

Hibbert(26)/Nene(14)/KG(8)
KG(28)/Griffin(10)/Pippen(8)
Pippen(28)/Prince(12)/Miller(8)
Miller(26)/Richmond(22)
Kidd(26)/Hardaway(22)


Ming 30
Mchale 32
Stojakovic 26
Jones 26
Lebron 37

Cousins 12
West 18
Wallace 13
Re. Lewis 23
Iverson 22

Edit 2: Starting lineup would be
Yao
Mchale
James
Jones
Iverson

This is a fantastic matchup. Power/Size vs. Length.

First thing I see is smart use of a bench by Bruh Man. His 2/3 of RUNTMC quell some of the offensive question marks his team faces, and Griffin/Nene get minutes to loosen the defense of that huge frontline. Will this be enough though? He's facing RSCD3's enormous team (Perhaps biggest frontline in the league).

This needs to be the best defense against a LeBron James-type I can think of. Scottie is the GOAT perimeter defender, and KG is the great equalizer against a perimeter creator like LBJ. Hibbert plays the Perkins role much better than Perkins (Nice job by Bruh pointing that out), and Kidd might be the GOAT defender at PG, a player who can even defend LBJ for stretches. This defense is as versatile as can be against perimeter threats.

RSCD counters this by making James an off-ball threat at times, using him in screen-and-roll with possibly the most danerous ball-handler ever in Allen Iverson and using him as a corner shooter, pulling the GOAT perimeter defender/disruptor away from large swathes of the floor.

Despite Iverson not being the best fit on most super teams, I actually like him with LeBron James as a guy who can take pressure off of LBJ as a creative type while still being able to play off-ball. I don't buy the argument that Iverson is too ball dominant. Iverson had two other guys average over 5 assists per game on his 2001 team....I think there's a nice give-and-take between James and Iverson. Iverson creates and lets LBJ finish (as RSCD talks about with the pick-n-roll), or LBJ controls the ball and Iverson becomes an off-ball threat , likely via baseline cuts, curls off screens, or taking a guy 1 on 1 after James has shifted the defense.

Al in all, I like the counter, and I like Iverson with James. AI doesn't work with certain players, but I think James can work with anybody.

I think what softens that stout defense further is McHale. I don't like Garnett on McHale. The best defenders I've ever seen against McHale are long centers with strong lower bases. Garnett is probably a top-3 defensive anchor in this league, but his man defense against legitimate post threats isn't amazing. I think McHale gets his.

Hibbert is a nice counter to a Yao Ming with little NBA experience. I actually like Hibbert's defensive impact this series against LBJ drives and Yao Ming finishes. Even when somebody creates for Yao, Hibbert will be there to contest.

David West getting 18 minutes is a positive. Gives the offense a different look, a guy who can use his jumper and an underrated passer. He's a smart player.

Peja and Jones are there to shoot 3's, and shoot they will. Beware though..Pippen/KG/Kidd...they close out on shooters at a GOAT level. Do Iverson/LBJ/McHale shift that super defense enough to get them open looks?

Lewis is an adequate ball-handler off the bench. Wouldn't have been my choice, but solid enough. I think West/Jones/Lewis/Peja are smart enough players that will make the necessary swing passes to compliment the havoc created by James/Iverson and the finishing ability of McHale (Jones/Peja should be good enough post entry-passers, especially if Pip is guarding LBJ and not them).

On the other side, Garnett is going to get his against McHale. McHale was good at funneling the mid-post small forward scorers of his era into Parish. KG's offensive game is so versatile...off-ball shooter, defent post scorer, runs the floor, finishes inside, can drive and pull up...I don't see McHale affecting his game.

Great offensive chemistry for Bruh Man indeed. Scottie and Kidd ensure smart decision-making for this team. Garnett/Miller is a match made in bball heaven. Miller distorts the offense for 5 seconds, comes off a KG screen, and either shoots or finds KG open for a high-percentage look. And that fastbreak...Man, it's going to be a joy watching Kidd direct a fast break with Pip and KG and then Reggie/Mitch shooting 3's...all the while LBJ and Gerald Wallace and Eddie Jones try for chasedown blocks.

I think RSCD's defense is underrated though. Bruh Man's greatest offensive weakness is the inability to work for a layup in the halfcourt, and Yao Ming will make this much more difficult. Hibbert is a non-threat as far as I'm concerned...This version of Yao did a decent job of defending an older Shaq. He's got the base strength and the standing reach to shut Hibbert down on the offensive glass, putbacks, finishes.

Yao/McHale/James is ridiculous, especially with Eddie Jones on the perimeter for 26 minutes. Jones/James/Wallace are pretty good closing out on shooters as well.

It comes down to this...In the end, I don't think Bruh Man's frontline does enough to open the HCO offense up against Yao/McHale/David West. Only opening I see is when Cousins is out there...Griffin/Nene and Scottie in his 8 minutes at PF should be able to score efficiently because Cousins has poor defensive awareness and can't just use his physicality the way he can against the less mobile Hibbert.

I'm going to side with RSCD's team here. I trust his GOAT-level offensive player, flanked by shooters and legitimate interior threats AND an elite creator next to him (AI), against this super defense more than I trust Bruh Man's offense against that huge, physical defense that can still get back in transition (I do think LBJ/Wallace/Jones are good enough transition defenders that the fast break buckets by Bruh Man are cut down on enough).

This one goes to Game 7. No two ways about it. Very tough.

Winner: RSCD3_

[MisterHibachi]

bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0
ronnymac2: RSCD3_
Doctor MJ
SideshowBob: Bruh Man
Texas Chuck: Bruh Man
therealbig3: Bruh Man

[Doctor MJ]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

[whitehops]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

[MisterHibachi]

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron and LeBron produced one of his greatest seasons ever; this is Yao and McHale, infinitely more talented offensively than Big Z and Varejao. Spacing won't be Miami-like, but I don't think it'll be as great a problem for RSCD3_ as most people think, especially with Peja on the floor; his offense will be very deadly. Bruh Man's defense, however, seems to be a wet dream for a Thibs style defense and they are designed to lock down perimeter players. As Doctor MJ said, this is very very tough.

[whitehops]

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron

to be fair, big Z started every game he played that year (65) but Wallace actually started more than varejao (53 to 42). varejao played every game except one while big ben played 56 and didn't start three of those games.


i'm being anal but it further proves your point, the cavs had little frontcourt spacing that year (although big Z could hit that midrange shot)

[Doctor MJ]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

[HeartBreakKid]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

Bird-Mchale-Parish were also a lot more talented than most teams. There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

To the spacing point, the starting front court for the Cavs in 09 was Varejao and Big Z with LeBron and LeBron produced one of his greatest seasons ever; this is Yao and McHale, infinitely more talented offensively than Big Z and Varejao. Spacing won't be Miami-like, but I don't think it'll be as great a problem for RSCD3_ as most people think, especially with Peja on the floor; his offense will be very deadly. Bruh Man's defense, however, seems to be a wet dream for a Thibs style defense and they are designed to lock down perimeter players. As Doctor MJ said, this is very very tough. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299929&start=30#sthash.RyAAshrZ.dpuf

Part of the reason why that team was called Lebron James and the Cavs. That's just a testament to Lebron James', that doesn't actually challenge that the two isolation scoring bigs are not being optimized in this offense.

[Quotatious]

There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Huh? Look at my bench guys. Other people have Bowen, Battier or Korver, too.

[HeartBreakKid]

There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Huh? Look at my bench guys. Other people have Bowen, Battier or Korver, too.

Your top 8 players were all all-stars, not exactly disproving my point when you have someone like Chris Mullin on your bench.

Bowen and Battier are all NBA level defenders, so yes they are considered roleplayers in real life, but that doesn't really fairly say what their actual value is on the court. They are technically reduced to playing a role, but hell, so are players like Tony Parker, Ben Wallace and Ray Allen.

Also, all of those players are considered bench players in our league. So don't be smart with me.

[ardee]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

The point is that his drive and kick game may be a little hard with the Yao-McHale frontline because like it or not the spacing is bad on that.

However I don't see much of a need for the drive and kick anyway. Miami LeBron, at least the best versions, plays more as a real forward anyway, none of his Cleveland PG moves with the PnR with Varejao they used to run for seventy kajillion plays in a row. He posts up, he spots up, he creates off the dribble, he's much more varied in his style of play. He doesn't need to rely on the drive and kick to create for his team-mates. As long as there's decent movement and off-ball screens being set he'll find the open man.

[TMACFORMVP]

Again, I’m sorry for the late(?) votes, but couldn’t do it till now, and haven't read all the posts besides the ones by the GM/owner of these teams. I’m just gonna write out loud my thoughts on the matchup, and hope to come to a conclusion, because…

My god….this is insanely tough.

When I saw this team originally, I had really hoped that RSCD3 would start Bron at PG. I was a bit disappointed to see Iverson as the starter, but the minute rotation essentially works out the same way. I really like playing LeBron with shooters like Peja/EJ. However, I think in terms of rotation, I actually think having LeBron play backup 4 minutes and just playing with another shooter woulda been even more deadly for stretches. I also think RSCD3 is using his bench too much. The idea of a playoff series going with shortened rotations is because you want your best players playing the most minutes. I’m not sure how much place there is for a guy like Cousins in a game like this (so far at least), let alone getting minutes. I’m also not sure how I feel about two primarily more inside players crowding the frontcourt with Bron. I think LeBron as the hub with shooters and finishers is a recipe that yields as good offensive production or impact as any player in NBA history. And make no mistake; Bron is the best player in this series by a noticeable margin.

But man, Bruh Man’s team is EQUIPPED to stop that hub. Bron will still do his thing, but it’s like the Pacers, except make George even better defensively, and oh yeah, throw in an all-time great KG in the mix too. Bron’s two biggest challenges in the East have probably been the Celtics, and now the Pacers. Defensively, Bruh Man’s team is like the strength of both those teams COMBINED with another all-time great perimeter defender in JKidd. Though I guess I’m not saying much because that defense is equipped to guard everyone.
Though I’d like to note, I actually think Yao performed better v. traditional big man centers rather than smaller ones that could bother him with quickness and fronting.

I’m still trying to find a gripe with Bruh Man’s team though. Offensively, it lacks that mega star to take over, but Miller fits beautifully, and I really like Richmond and Hardaway’s roles off the bench. KG/Pippen could also fill in and were great passers. I think the ball movement would be great, and if they could control the boards – get out and run some too. Haven’t looked at the order, but I’d think to think there were better options than Nene off the bench.

I really want to pick RSDC3’s team because of LeBron. And because it has a couple good three point shooters, and mega efficient inside big man, with albeit mid-range to their game (though idc what the stats say about Yao’s mid-range, it wasn’t very good, IMO. I think he had a better % than it seemed because he had a couple shots that good be construed as mid-range when he fades away off the post, but that’s different than a stand-alone mid-range jumper). Sorry, I’m just ranting at this point, but the offensive potential of this team in a playoff series is scary with superb efficiency.

But because the paint get s a little congested, which limits LeBron already, I really have to question Iverson’s role on the team. I can buy LeBron with two non-space, but highly efficient great finishers (though it’s a bit different than the Cavs, because guys like Varejao/Wallace were just always in position to try to grab offensive boards and gain extra possessions, while Yao/McHale were more or less guys you threw the ball into for a score…and neither are particularly great offensive rebounders). But I think the addition of Iverson makes it tougher. I mean…I hate to pile on Iverson. I think people do that enough and don’t appreciate some of the positives he brought to the game. But in an all-time game perspective or matchup, the name of the game is maximizing possessions, and Iverson simply doesn’t do that – especially when he might be used in a role that’s more off the ball (because you want the ball and decision making to be ideally be in LeBron’s hands).
So I guess I see a flaw or two (or slight nitpicks is probably more appropriate) in RSCD3’s team. And I think Bruh Man’s team is equipped to bring out those “nitpicks” even more with their personnel. I think they can slow down Bron enough, and have enough execution/firepower on their own side as the slight tilt in this series.

I guess if I have to vote….ugh….I’ll go…both of them. No? Damn, umm…

Vote: Bruh Man

*now runs away from the computer to get my head outta this matchup.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'll say for now I'm having trouble deciding but I find myself fixated on one thing:

People seem to be seeing LeBron-McHale-Yao and think "Clogged Interior!", and I wonder if people have lost perspective a little. Bird-McHale-Parish was one of the great front courts in history. Yes Bird is a better shooter from the exterior, but LeBron can work fantastically out there as a floor general and the squad has marksmen. I'm not seeing the glaring problem. I see a fabulously talented team that could work exceptionally well.

That said, I'd agree that the opposing defense is admirably constructed to handle such a threat. Two really tough squads here.

Bird-Mchale-Parish were also a lot more talented than most teams. There aren't roleplayers in this tournament.

Yeah, but it's not like people watched that trio and said "That's ugly basketball, but they are just too talented to lose." They worked gorgeously together, which meant that their fit was at least adequate.

[Doctor MJ]

it's a little different though, imo. LeBron is a great passer in all facets but he is primarily a drive-and-kick guy. his whole game in putting pressure on the defense's interior and then passing to a teammate for an easy jump shot.

I personally consider him the best playmaker in the league because he can force a defense to load up on the strong side and then has the strength/vision to make the cross-court pass to an open shooter.

It's not like LeBron's doing something terribly unusual when he drives & kicks. It's one of the fundamental techniques that point guards use.

The point is that his drive and kick game may be a little hard with the Yao-McHale frontline because like it or not the spacing is bad on that.

Right but the implication of that given what I've just said is that a great point guard would be a bad fit with McHale & Yao. That simply cannot be the case.

I'm not saying that there can't ever be a clogging issue on a possession, but I think a sanity check needs to come into play when people in a tournament like this seem petrified of issues that always occur in every game no matter who the team.

However I don't see much of a need for the drive and kick anyway. Miami LeBron, at least the best versions, plays more as a real forward anyway, none of his Cleveland PG moves with the PnR with Varejao they used to run for seventy kajillion plays in a row. He posts up, he spots up, he creates off the dribble, he's much more varied in his style of play. He doesn't need to rely on the drive and kick to create for his team-mates. As long as there's decent movement and off-ball screens being set he'll find the open man.

Oddly I'm actually less comfortable with that. LeBron posts up more because it just make sense given his roster, but why would you have him do that when you've got two world class bigs in there? I think the ideal way for LeBron to play on this team is something different than either what we saw in Cleveland or Miami. He'll have to work the perimeter like Cleveland but pass like in Miami.